Israel fears Jewish attack on ‘Hitler Youth’ Pope

The Times (UK) ^ | May 10, 2009 | Uzi Mahnaimi

[Cronos]

Ok, bringing in the Greek guns — Kolokotronis can and does read the NT in original Koine Greek and can help me with this. Kolokotronis — can you read post #90 and #97 and help with this?

[Cronos]

As for what the hope of Gentiles is, it is Messiah

You didn't answer my question -- you say that the Messiah is the hope of the Gentiles. The Messiah was Christ, hence the message to the Gentiles.

however, you deny that Christ was the Messiah, hence, you deny that the Gentiles of today have any hope of salvation because you say that the Messiah has not yet arrived. Correct?

[aruanan]

Without immersing yourself in the language and culture of Paul, you won't ever understand him. Although he likely spoke Latin and Greek... he thought like a Jew, and his training under Gamliel was thoroughly "rabbinic" and that tells far more than you can ever see on your side of the divide. Paul is one of Judaism's greatest sages.

There are at least two problems with what you said.

1. Assuming that language is so limited that it cannot be understood in the absence of cultural understanding. The extreme position of this would be that everyone is so idiosyncratic that no one can possibly understand what anyone else says or writes without actually being that other person.
2. Forgetting that Paul wrote with full knowledge of both his own training and the linguistic, cultural, and religious backgrounds of those to whom he wrote, especially in the context of his being considered by Peter, James, and John to be the apostle to the gentiles as they were apostles to the Jews.

[Cronos]

We thought that we had friends in the Age of Enlightenment. We assimilated into European society. We were the doctors, the poets, the philosophers. We looked and acted like everyone else. In the end, six million of us were murdered because of our ancestry. We will never forget. We will not permit others to forget. There is no malice in this.

Jews assimilated into European society and there is no greater proof than in the US, the culmination of European society. 6 million were killed because of their Jewish ancestry, millions were killed because they were Slavic (Poles or Russians) -- what about them?

Also, your persecution mentality contrasts with Zoroastrians (part of my ancestry is Zoroastrian) -- they have been persecuted since the fall of the Iranian Empire to the Arabs. Do you expect them too to have the same persecution mentality and distrust everyone around them? That is so incredibly wrong.

[Cronos]

I will gladly post some quotes from Augustine, Marytr, Chrysostom, Origen, et al.

I would welcome the opportunity to learn more, so please do post.

[SJackson]

Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume

If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.

..................

I'm sure were it not for the Jewish "zealots", the Pope wouldn't have needed security at all. The Times is fabricating a controversy.

[SJackson]

I reckon this UK rag is gleeful that it gets to smear conservative Catholics and Jews in one article. Two for one today in the slanting culture war. I bet they would snicker if they ever read this thread.

That's right, Uzi Mahnaimi is virulently anti-Israel, well known for his friendship with Bassam Abu-Sharif, a high ranking Arafat aid. The premise of the article should be taken with a grain of salt. That security is tight is a given.

[safisoft]

Examples?

They formulated "Church" doctrine... and words mean things and have consequence, especially religious words...This just a brief list:

For if we are still practicing Judaism, we admit that we have not received G-d’s favor…it is wrong to talk about Jesus Christ and live like Jews. For Christianity did not believe in Judaism, but Judaism in Christianity.
Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (98-117 CE) Epistle to the Magnesians

Take heed to yourselves and be not like some piling up you sins and saying that the covenant is theirs as well as ours. It is ours, but they lost it completely just after Moses received it.
Epistle of Barnabas Chapter 4vs 6-7 (130-138 CE)

We too, would observe your circumcision of the flesh, your Sabbath days, and in a word, all you festivals, if we were not aware of the reason why they were imposed upon you, namely, because of your sins and the hardness of heart. The custom of circumcising the flesh, handed down from Abraham, was given to you as a distinguishing mark, to set you off from other nations and from us Christians. The purpose of this was that you and only you might suffer the afflictions that are now justly yours; that only your land be desolated, and you cities ruined by fire, that the fruits of you land be eaten by strangers before your very eyes; that not one of you be permitted to enter your city of Jerusalem. Your circumcision of the flesh is the only mark by which you can certainly be distinguished from other men…as I stated before it was by reason of your sins and the sins of your fathers that, among other precepts, G-d imposed upon you the observence of the sabbath as a mark.
Justin Martyr Dialogue with Trypho the Jew (110-160 CE)

We may thus assert in utter confidence that the Jews will not return to their earlier situation, for they have committed the most abominable of crimes, in forming this conspiracy against the Savior of the human race…hence the city where Jesus suffered was necessarily destroyed, the Jewish nation was driven from its country, and another people was called by G-d to the blessed election.
Origen of Alexandria (185-254 CE)

The synagogue is worse than a brothel…it is the den of scoundrels and the repair of wild beasts…the temple of demons devoted to idolatrous cults…the refuge of brigands and dabauchees, and the cavern of devils. It is a criminal assembly of Jews…a place of meeting for the assassins of Christ… a house worse than a drinking shop…a den of thieves, a house of ill fame, a dwelling of iniquity, the refuge of devils, a gulf and a abyss of perdition."…"I would say the same things about their souls… As for me, I hate the synagogue…I hate the Jews for the same reason.
John Chrysostom (344-407 CE) – Known as "St. John Chrysostom" the "Doctor of the Church."

How hateful to me are the enemies of your Scripture! How I wish that you would slay them (the Jews) with your two-edged sword, so that there should be none to oppose your word! Gladly would I have them die to themselves and live to you!

That the Church admits and avows the Jewish people to be cursed, because after killing Christ they continue to till the ground of an earthly circumcision, an earthly Sabbath, an earthly passover, while the hidden strength or virtue of making known Christ, which this tilling contains, is not yielded to the Jews while they continue in impiety and unbelief, for it is revealed in the New Testament. While they will not turn to G-d, the veil which is on their minds in reading the Old Testament is not taken away... the Jewish people, like Cain, continue tilling the ground, in the carnal observance of the law, which does not yield to them its strength, because they do not perceive in it the grace of Christ.
Augustine (354-430 CE)

Yes, you Jews. I say, do I address you; you, who till this very day, deny the Son of G-d. How long, poor wretches, will ye not believe the truth? Truly I doubt whether a Jew can be really human… I lead out from its den a monstrous animal, and show it as a laughing stock in the amphitheater of the world, in the sight of all the people. I bring thee forward, thou Jew, thou brute beast, in the sight of all men.
Peter "the Venerable"

Protestants also weigh in...

What then shall we Christians do with this damned, rejected race of Jews? Since they live among us and we know about their lying and blasphemy and cursing, we can not tolerate them if we do not wish to share in their lies, curses, and blasphemy. In this way we cannot quench the inextinguishable fire of divine rage nor convert the Jews. We must prayerfully and reverentially practice a merciful severity. Perhaps we may save a few from the fire and flames [of hell]. We must not seek vengeance. They are surely being punished a thousand times more than we might wish them. Let me give you my honest advice.

First, their synagogues should be set on fire, and whatever does not burn up should be covered or spread over with dirt so that no one may ever be able to see a cinder or stone of it. And this ought to be done for the honor of G-d and of Christianity in order that G-d may see that we are Christians, and that we have not wittingly tolerated or approved of such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of His Son and His Christians.

Secondly, their homes should likewise be broken down and destroyed. For they perpetrate the same things there that they do in their synagogues. For this reason they ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like gypsies, in order that they may realize that they are not masters in our land, as they boast, but miserable captives, as they complain of incessantly before G-d with bitter wailing.

Thirdly, they should be deprived of their prayer-books and Talmuds in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught.

Fourthly, their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more...

Fifthly, passport and traveling privileges should be absolutely forbidden to the Jews. For they have no business in the rural districts since they are not nobles, nor officials, nor merchants, nor the like. Let them stay at home...If you princes and nobles do not close the road legally to such exploiters, then some troop ought to ride against them, for they will learn from this pamphlet what the Jews are and how to handle them and that they ought not to be protected. You ought not, you cannot protect them, unless in the eyes of G-d you want to share all their abomination...

To sum up, dear princes and nobles who have Jews in your domains, if this advice of mine does not suit you, then find a better one so that you and we may all be free of this insufferable devilish burden - the Jews...

Let the government deal with them in this respect, as I have suggested. But whether the government acts or not, let everyone at least be guided by his own conscience and form for himself a definition or image of a Jew. When you lay eyes on or think of a Jew you must say to yourself: Alas, that mouth which I there behold has cursed and execrated and maligned every Saturday my dear L-rd Jesus Christ, who has redeemed me with his precious blood; in addition, it prayed and pleaded before G-d that I, my wife and children, and all Christians might be stabbed to death and perish miserably. And he himself would gladly do this if he were able, in order to appropriate our goods...

Such a desperate, thoroughly evil, poisonous, and devilish lot are these Jews, who for these fourteen hundred years have been and still are our plague, our pestilence, and our misfortune.

I have read and heard many stories about the Jews which agree with this judgment of Christ, namely, how they have poisoned wells, made assassinations, kidnapped children, as related before. I have heard that one Jew sent another Jew, and this by means of a Christian, a pot of blood, together with a barrel of wine, in which when drunk empty, a dead Jew was found. There are many other similar stories. For their kidnapping of children they have often been burned at the stake or banished (as we already heard). I am well aware that they deny all of this. However, it all coincides with the judgment of Christ which declares that they are venomous, bitter, vindictive, tricky serpents, assassins, and children of the devil, who sting and work harm stealthily wherever they cannot do it openly. For this reason, I would like to see them where there are no Christians. The Turks and other heathen do not tolerate what we Christians endure from these venomous serpents and young devils...next to the devil, a Christian has no more bitter and galling foe than a Jew. There is no other to whom we accord as many benefactions and from whom we suffer as much as we do from these base children of the devil, this brood of vipers.

But your [G-d’s] judgment is right, justus es Dominie. Yes, so shall Jews, but no one else be punished, who held your word and miracles in contempt and ridiculed, insulted and damned it for such a long time without interruption, so that they will not fall, like other humans, heathens and all the others, into sin and death, not up in Hell, nor in the middle of Hell but in the pit of Hell, as one cannot fall deeper...

Even if they were punished in the most gruesome manner that the streets ran with their blood, that their dead would be counted, not in the hundred thousands, but in the millions, as happened under Vespasian in Jerusalem and for evil under Hadrian, still they must insist on being right even if after these 1,500 years they were in misery another 1,500 years, still G-d must be a liar and they must be correct. In sum, they are the devil’s children, damned to Hell...

The Jews too got what they deserved. They had been called and elected to be G-d’s mouth as Jeremiah says...Open your mouth wide and I will fill it; they however, kept tightly closed their muzzles, eyes, ears, nose, whole heart and all senses, so he polluted and squirted them so full that it oozes from them in all places and devil’s filth comes from them.

Yes, that tastes good to them, into their hearts, they smack their lips like swine. That is how they want it. Call more: ‘Crucify him, crucify him.’ Scream more: ‘His blood come upon us and our children.’ (Matthew 27:25) I mean it came and found you...

Perhaps, one of the merciful Saints among us Christians may think I am behaving too crude and disdainfully against the poor, miserable Jews in that I deal with them so sarcastically and insulting. But, good G-d, I am much too mild in insulting such devils…
Martin Luther (1543 CE)

Their [the Jews] rotten and unbending stiffneckedness deserves that they be oppressed unendingly and without measure or end and that they die in their misery without the pity of anyone.
John Calvin

[Campion]

That's right, Uzi Mahnaimi is virulently anti-Israel, well known for his friendship with Bassam Abu-Sharif, a high ranking Arafat aid.

The U.K. mainstream press is generally very anti-Catholic as well. This article is basically a case of "let's you and him fight".

[Campion]

Why are you posting Martin Luther quotes to a bunch of Catholics?

Luther told his followers to "wash your hands in the Papists' blood". That's as bad as anything he said about the Jews.

[Hacksaw]

I have seen just as much anti-Catholic bigotry among Jews as I have seen anti-Jewish bigotry among Catholics.

Actually I have seen a lot more of it among Jews.

[safisoft]

You didn't answer my question -- you say that the Messiah is the hope of the Gentiles. The Messiah was Christ, hence the message to the Gentiles. however, you deny that Christ was the Messiah, hence, you deny that the Gentiles of today have any hope of salvation because you say that the Messiah has not yet arrived. Correct?

What an interesting choice of words. In Greek, there is only one word that was available to transmit the concept of an anointed one: christos is not the best match for mashiach, but it is what the New Testament writers had to work with in Greek. christos means "rubbed one" whereas mashiach literally means "oiled one." Close enough. In English, however you have two choices, the transliteration of Greek ("Christ"), or the transliteration of Hebrew ("Messiah").

Oddly, most Christians act like "Christ" is a name instead of a title of an office. The "Old Testament" assigns the title mashiach to prophets, priests, and kings. It is part of the Bible language and the culture. It remains a significant part of Judaism. When you say things like "The Messiah was Christ" do you realize how silly that sounds? Now, I know that you meant, "The Messiah was Jesus", and whereas you think this is only a matter or semantics, it shows the disconnect that so many Christians have from the religion of the Bible. I mean no disrespect by that, it is simply an observation.

Ask an observant Jew if is is possible that a Torah teacher from the Galilee could be Messiah, and you will get only affirmation. Try and tie Messiah to "Christ" and all they will hear is "Enemy of the Jewish People" - how could the Enemy be Messiah? We have experienced this. Christianity has demonstrated this. Even in modern times, otherwise well-meaning Christians have destroyed the testimony of Messiah by callously taking "Jesus" out of His Jewish identity. Past and present Christianity has purposely made Him to be a rebel Jew who led people out of Judaism, and rejected the faith of our fathers. Of course Jews would reject such a man. Read Deuternomy 13 and see. We are COMMANDED to reject someone who leads us away from the commandments of G-d.

Some of us that study the Scriptures have concluded that the Jew named "Yeshua" of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John is NOT someone Who led Jews away to form a new religion. Some of us rightly see Him as a Tzadik, a Prophet, Messiah, and as soon returning King. Is that the "Christ" or "Jesus" as many Christians know him? Sometimes I have my doubts.

[safisoft]

Why are you posting Martin Luther quotes to a bunch of Catholics?

Apparently, he was in good company. Did you forget where he learned it? I am glad to oblige with pages of only Catholics if you prefer...

[SJackson]

The U.K. mainstream press is generally very anti-Catholic as well. This article is basically a case of "let's you and him fight".

Effectively too

[safisoft]

And finally, do you forget that in places like India, Jews were never persecuted but were part of the community? Do you forget all of this and say "we have no earthly friends, everyone is our enemy"? The more you repeat that, the more you perplex and alienate your friends.

Have the Jewish people had friends among men? First, we have but only for a season. The US is a perfect example. Within a few years, the US will be naming Israel as the enemy of democracy, we saw that begining with Dr. Rice.

Secondly, were there individuals over the years that have gone against culture and religion to defend Jews? Most assuredly There are hundreds of righteous Catholics that went to tremendous personal loss to protect Jews who were being hunted by Nazis, as well as during Stalin's days. We acknowledge their sacrifice and will praise them unceasingly. Likewise Lutherans like Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

[presidio9]

Thanks, and I agree with you on all points. This sort of stuff seemed to go away for a while on FR, but now it seems to be making a comeback. Right now, I can’t seem to post a thread with the words Vatican, Catholic, or Pope in the title without attracting a handful of ignorant and hatefule people who make it their mission to lie here. Years ago, I allowed this sort of crap to give me a low opinion of Jim Robinson. I was amazed that he would go out and create the leading Conservative web forum and then ignore the biggots who seemed to log on just to attack the Catholic Church. If I had any interest in running FR, the first thing I’d do would be to get rid of these sort of people. Actually, I now think that they do do that, but they just keep reappearing like cockroaches under a better name.

[presidio9]

Hey, I have no problem agreeing that Jesus was a Jew, and Paul was a Jew, and Apostles were all Jews. My point was that Christians forget about past sins of those who repent. Catholic would accept Hitler if it were possible for his sick mind to be truely repentent.

But I can’t resist, since you brought it up. In your opinion, are the Jews For Jesus still Jewish? I ask you that because most Jewish authorities seem to deny that they are.

[presidio9]

"I tried it, but, I didn't inhale..."

That analogy doesn't work because marijuana use was not compulsory to the young Bill Clinton (who was never the less twice as old as Joseph Ratzinger was when he was signed up for the HY).

[presidio9]

Sorry, my earlier response was to someone else. Please disregard.