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Dumbing-Down the U.S. Navy
Townhall.com ^ | July 7, 2009 | Pat Buchanan

Posted on 07/07/2009 2:51:13 AM PDT by Kaslin

"Naval Academy Professor Challenges Rising Diversity," ran the headline in The Washington Post.

The impression left was that some sorehead was griping because black and Hispanic kids were finally being admitted.

The Post's opening paragraphs reinforced the impression.

"Of the 1,230 plebes who took the oath of office at the Naval Academy in Annapolis this week, 435 were members of minority groups. It's the most racially diverse class in the nation's 164-year history. Academy leaders say it's a top priority to build a student body that reflects the racial makeup of the Navy and the nation."

Who can be against diversity?

What the Post gets around to is that 22-year English professor Bruce Fleming objects to a race-based admissions program that was apparently used to create a class that is 35 percent minority.

According to Fleming, who once sat on the board of admissions, white applicants must have all As and Bs and test scores of at least 600 on the English and math parts of the SAT even to qualify for a "slate" of 10 applicants, from which only one will be chosen.

However, if you check a box indicating you are African-American, Hispanic, Native American or Asian, writes Fleming, "SAT scores to the mid 500s with quite a few Cs in classes ... typically produces a vote of 'qualified' ... with direct admission to Annapolis. They're in and given a pro forma nomination to make it legit."

If true, the U.S. Naval Academy is running a two-tier admissions system of the kind that kept Jennifer Gratz out of the University of Michigan and was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court.

"Minority applicants with scores and grades down to the 300s and Cs and Ds also come, though after a year at our taxpayer-supported remedial school, the Naval Academy Preparatory School."

If true, this is a national disgrace. It would represent a U.S. Naval Academy policy of systematic race discrimination, every year, against hundreds of white kids who worked and studied their entire lives for the honor of being appointed to the U.S. Naval Academy and becoming career officers in the Navy or Marine Corps.

If true, what Annapolis has done and is doing is worse -- because it is premeditated and programmed racism -- than the cowardly act of the New Haven city government in denying Frank Ricci and the white firefighters the promotions they had won in a competitive exam. At least New Haven could say it acted out of fear of being sued.

Yet, Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Gary Roughead and the Superintendent of the Naval Academy Vice Adm. Jerry Fowler seem quite proud of what they are doing.

Fleming quotes the CNO as saying that "diversity is the number one priority" at the academy. Fowler says he wants Annapolis graduates who "looked like" the fleet, where 42 percent of enlisted personnel are nonwhite.

The diversity midshipmen, says Fleming, who teaches them, are over-represented in "pre-college lower track courses, mandatory tutoring programs and less-challenging majors. Many struggle to master basic concepts."

Thus, though unqualified for college work, these students will be operating the most sophisticated and complex weapons systems ever built -- aircraft carriers, Aegis cruisers, nuclear submarines.

"First of all, we're dumbing-down the Naval Academy," charges Fleming. "Second of all, we're dumbing-down the officers corps."

Supporting Fleming's claim, 22 percent of incoming plebes in 2009 had SAT scores in math below 600, compared to 12 percent in 2008.

If the facts are as Fleming states -- the academy is accepting dumber and dumber students to get its racial composition right -- who can deny that the price of diversity is deliberate acceptance of a less able and competent United States Navy?

"Diversity is our number one priority," Roughhead is quoted. Can one imagine Adm. Chester Nimitz or "Bull" Halsey making an insipid statement like that? Can one imagine what Adm. David "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!" Farragut would have thought of such a policy?

Whatever happened to the Hyman Rickover-Jimmy Carter motto for the Naval Academy and U.S. Navy: "Why Not the Best?"

Consider. If hundreds of black and Hispanic kids who applied to the academy had been rejected though they had higher grades and SAT scores than those admitted, this story would not have been in the Metro section of the Post. It would have been bannered on page one. And Roughead and Fowler would be explaining to a congressional committee why they should not be relieved of their commands.

Fleming, who still teaches at Annapolis, and has likely had some unpleasant moments since he blew the whistle on his superiors, has shown considerable moral courage.

Hopefully, Congress will show the same moxy and investigate this outage. Hopefully, some of those white kids, cheated out of their life's dream of attending the Naval Academy -- while less qualified kids were admitted -- will sue the academy, just like Frank Ricci and those gutsy firefighters sued the city of New Haven.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; US: Maryland
KEYWORDS: deathofthewest; diversity; militaryreadiness; usna; usnavy
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 07/07/2009 2:51:14 AM PDT by Kaslin
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To: Kaslin

Who can be against diversity?

Anyone who knows what it takes to get it.

Then again consider the new meaning of the word.

It is purely a liberal concept, and means basically, get whitey.


2 posted on 07/07/2009 2:56:22 AM PDT by wita
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To: Kaslin
One of these kids will become the next Colin Powell.  Others will infiltrate our sevices and make them weaker.  Mission accomplished.



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3 posted on 07/07/2009 2:56:34 AM PDT by DoughtyOne (_Resident of the United States and Kenya's favorite son, Baraaaack Hussein Obamaaaa...)
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To: Kaslin

Isn’t the answer to this self-evident? Check the box that says “Native American” rather than “White”, and be done with it? Let them prove that you aren’t “Native American” and see how far they get.

(The only time you couldn’t do that is if you were born outside the USA (like Obama).)

If there is nothing to be gained by ticking the “White” box, don’t tick it!


4 posted on 07/07/2009 3:00:18 AM PDT by DieHard the Hunter (Is mise an ceann-cinnidh. Cha ghéill mi do dhuine. Fàg am bealach.)
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To: Kaslin

Pat Buchanan complaining about racism. Pot/kettle?


5 posted on 07/07/2009 3:04:53 AM PDT by iowamark (certified by Michael Steele as "ugly and incendiary")
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To: Kaslin
We are well on our way to the Idiocracy.

"Aks" anyone.

Photobucket
6 posted on 07/07/2009 3:05:58 AM PDT by Canedawg (FUBO)
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To: Kaslin
More on the situation: at the link
7 posted on 07/07/2009 3:08:30 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Kaslin

Diversity nothing more than a dumming down program by libs.


8 posted on 07/07/2009 3:10:07 AM PDT by Vaduz
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To: Kaslin
Pat is full of elitist crap.

NAPS has been around for about a century. It is for US Navy sailors who are good enough to compete for a measly 100 Secretary of the Navy appointments to the Academy. There's nothing remedial about it - students have to pass college freshman level courses (heavy on math and science), or they go back to the Fleet and serve their time.

He owes Navy enlisted sailors who attend NAPS an apology.
9 posted on 07/07/2009 3:13:55 AM PDT by Thrownatbirth (.....Iraq Invasion fan since '91.)
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To: Thrownatbirth
"Minority applicants with scores and grades down to the 300s and Cs and Ds also come, though after a year at our taxpayer-supported remedial school, the Naval Academy Preparatory School."

If true, it means that minority admission to NAPS is also dumbed down. 300 scores? That shouldn't be enough to get into Journalism or Education schools.

10 posted on 07/07/2009 3:20:55 AM PDT by Jacquerie (That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men.)
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To: Kaslin
What's the problem? There ought to be enough money in the stimulus package to just give each new ensign a teleprompter along with a diploma. What the hell the cost could be offset by eliminating 4 years of study at the USNA and requiring 2 weeks of teleprompter school in Hollywood, California. This is working out just find at the White House, er, er, er, er, isn't it?
11 posted on 07/07/2009 3:23:12 AM PDT by hflynn (The One is really Number Two)
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To: Kaslin
David Horowitz warned us over a generation ago to not let the radicals set their claws into our military services.

In the mid 1970s the very missions of the service academies were changed to accommodate the admission of women.

In the 1980s, Congresswomen Pat Schroeder and her NOW gang began the thinning of what they considered “knuckle draggers” from the officers corps.

Tailhook 1991 - A great excuse to complete the purges.

Racial political correctness will continue to get men killed as unqualified officers are put into positions beyond their capabilites.

12 posted on 07/07/2009 3:30:07 AM PDT by Jacquerie (That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men.)
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To: Jacquerie

I went to NAPS in the early 70’s with a lot of sailors and Marines who only had GEDs, but a lot of combat experience. They certainly deserved a shot at a commission. Regardless of your prior education, you still had to compete academically with everyone one else for those 100 appointments. If you didn’t get an appointment, you went back and served the rest of your enlistment (usually WESPAC).


13 posted on 07/07/2009 3:38:20 AM PDT by Thrownatbirth (.....Iraq Invasion fan since '91.)
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To: Jacquerie
Racial political correctness will continue to get men killed

Women, too.

14 posted on 07/07/2009 3:41:00 AM PDT by HiTech RedNeck
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To: Thrownatbirth

Whats the big deal? If we can have an affirmative action presidant, why not a few affirmative action naval officers?


15 posted on 07/07/2009 3:43:41 AM PDT by Fred911 (YOU GET WHAT YOU ACCEPT)
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To: Canedawg
What do we expect when people like this run the country....

Corrine Brown Florida Gators
16 posted on 07/07/2009 3:46:15 AM PDT by Kozak (USA 7/4/1776 to 1/20/2009 Reqiescat in Pace)
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To: Kaslin

Why not the best.....?

17 posted on 07/07/2009 3:50:17 AM PDT by cbkaty (I may not always post...but I am always here......)
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To: Kozak

People like that don’t run the country. They just get in the way and suck money out of the system.


18 posted on 07/07/2009 3:50:48 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Fred911
why not a few affirmative action naval officers?

Sure. NAPS was called the Seaman-to-Admiral program back in the 50's. We called it the Seaman-to-Civilian program because so many of us went back to the Fleet to serve out our time after Plebe year at Canoe U.

For me, enlisted life was a lot more fun. I laugh at those guys on "Deadliest Catch".
19 posted on 07/07/2009 4:02:12 AM PDT by Thrownatbirth (.....Iraq Invasion fan since '91.)
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To: Kaslin

Looks to me like the policy is not dumbing down but dumbing up, all the way to the top.


20 posted on 07/07/2009 4:50:21 AM PDT by Bulldawg Fan (Victory is the last thing Murtha and his fellow Defeatists want.)
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To: Kaslin

I have known Flemming for about 15 years, no well but I do know him and he is 100% CORRECT!

FACT...Some minorities are being admitted to the USNA with SAT scores in the “400’s” while “non-minorities” are being turned away with SAT scores in the high “600’s”.

Sotomayor would be so proud!


21 posted on 07/07/2009 4:52:14 AM PDT by WellyP
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To: Thrownatbirth

This has been going on for years, why complain about it now.

They cut the physical requirements for the girls too, so what? Its been going on in the military for years. Does anyone believe the Army and Air Force arent ding the same thing.

Lower the standards for diversity another on going program that is at least 40 years old waiting for someone with the balls to ay it has to stop,


22 posted on 07/07/2009 4:54:24 AM PDT by Venturer
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To: Thrownatbirth

John McCain also went to NAPS, didn’t he? My uncle went to a NAPS in the 1940s, before graduating from the Academy. NAPS is a valuable system.

The point here is that there is a definite two-tier entrance system, based on ethnicity/skin color. That is wrong!


23 posted on 07/07/2009 5:09:03 AM PDT by maica (Politics is not about facts. it is about what politicians can get people to believe. - Thomas Sowell)
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To: driftdiver

Unless they are elected POTUS....


24 posted on 07/07/2009 5:12:21 AM PDT by Liberty Ship ("Lord, make me fast and accurate.")
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To: Kaslin

Fleming quotes the CNO as saying that “diversity is the number one priority” at the academy

HUH?
Diversity is the United States Naval Academy number one priority???
Quite honestly it should not even be a consideration.
The US Naval Academy exists soley to produce the highest qualified Officers to deploy in our Naval military against the enemies of the United States.
The color of that officers skin,where his or her ancestors originated from etc should be of absolutely no concern..

This Country is really, really on the wrong path and will more likely destroy itself then be destroyed from the outside.............


25 posted on 07/07/2009 5:14:54 AM PDT by SECURE AMERICA (Coming to You From the Front Lines of Occupied America)
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To: WellyP

The Naval Acadamy and affirmative action, putting unqualified people in charge of Navy warships. The navy enlisted corps has already been dumbed down to the point that nothing can get repaired on a ship without calling in the civilian tech reps. The only training that is available is online self paced technical courses.

From what I have been hearing from the tech reps, the officer corps is already on the dumb down path. You would not believe their screwy priorities. For example, having internet access for the sailors to send email home is more important than ship to ship or aircraft communications or operational tactical satellite communications. I have seen one year old Navy cruisers in Mayport Florida that are rust buckets. There is no pride anymore and many sailors are there just for the paycheck.


26 posted on 07/07/2009 5:20:04 AM PDT by Roklok
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To: Liberty Ship

But the real question is why do black perform lower on tests? While an imperfect system, tests were designed to measure a persons’ knowledge, ability to understand information and to some degree their IQ. By lowering standards for minorities, the Naval Academy is making the tacit admission that minorities ARE not as smart, and hence less capable, than white applicants.


27 posted on 07/07/2009 5:20:31 AM PDT by Josa
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To: Thrownatbirth
This is a BIG morale problem, not just an academic problem. I doubt that you have spent much time at "The Academy" or have had much, if any contact with the professors and teachers! I speak with at least one professor every few days!
28 posted on 07/07/2009 5:23:11 AM PDT by WellyP
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To: Kaslin

One of the Service Secretaries made a speach after his confirmation. He said that his number one goal was to create more diversity in the officer ranks. That makes me sick. His number one goal should be to have the best and most efficient military in the world, not to create some social experiment at the expense of security.


29 posted on 07/07/2009 5:24:14 AM PDT by mbynack (Retired USAF SMSgt)
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To: Venturer

It sure has been going on for years.

In the early 1980’s, the Navy want more “hispanic” officer candidates.

Not enough applicants of Mexican, Cuban, or Puerto Rican ethnicity were applying, so the Navy changed the meaning of “hispanic” to mean Americans whose ancestors were from either Spain or Portugal. They don’t even speak Spanish in Portugal.


30 posted on 07/07/2009 5:30:21 AM PDT by july4thfreedomfoundation (If Randy Cunningham is in prison for corruption, then why isn't Diane Feinstein locked up as well?)
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To: Josa

I believe GWB called this the ‘soft bigotry of low expectations’. Very sad state of affairs. I want the strongest Military possible and I don’t care about diversity. It is about the survival of our country. Nothing less.


31 posted on 07/07/2009 5:31:28 AM PDT by originalbuckeye
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To: Kaslin

I attended West Point from 1988-1992.

I did observe that alot of the cadets who washed out were minority....indicating they probably weren’t qualified to be there in the first place. This can be upsetting, when you look at how competitive it is to get in....

...but, to be fair, many of these washouts were athletes. Many of these athletes went through a year long prep school, similar to the Navy, just to get a head start on classes. Some of these athletes were less academically qualified than the average cadet, and clearly got in on athletic ability. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing; but, the academics eventually led to their demise. Also, most of the athletes had very tough schedules - early morning weight lifting sessions, a full day of classes (academy athletes are really students, unlike alot of Div I schools), team meetings, practice, evening weight lifting, etc.

There were some others who weren’t athletes, who were clearly unqualified. One woman in particular was fantastically unqualified. She faked injury constantly to get out of military training (and strangely was drawing an NAACP scholarship, even though there is no tuition). She graduated - but her poor tactical officer recommended she didn’t (because she was completely unfit). I’m sure his career was over.

There was another guy from Chicago - one of the biggest racists I’ve ever seen. Completely unmilitary. He claimed to have never seen a white person in his life prior to West Point. All of his problems were due to white people, we didn’t understand him, etc, etc. He got permission to not shave (somewhat common with black people at USMA, allegedly due to ingrown hairs). As far as I know, he graduated.

I can remember a few minorities who were great leaders, and in top physical condition - clearly qualified to be there. I always wondered what they thought about their less qualified classmates.

The biggest ‘tokenism’ we had when I was there had to do with women. We had the first woman First Captain (she wasn’t qualified). We had an influx of women tactical officers (former members of the first womens class of 1980, now senior enough for the position). One company (A2) was known as ‘no man’s land’, because all the leadership positions were always taken by women. The physical standards for women were lower; and, we we fed the line that they were just ‘different’.

In the ‘real’ Army, this stuff seemed to sort itself out real fast. I never percieved racial tokenism in my units....and quite frankly, I didn’t see much racism. For the most part, the military is merit based (I’m sure when you start seeing stars, things change). I agree with Pat to some degree; but, I don’t think it is a huge concern. Sure, there are slot fillers who ruin other people’s opportunities; but, the unqualified eventually get filtered out, so the actual damage to the military is minimal.


32 posted on 07/07/2009 5:33:50 AM PDT by lacrew (The 274th trimester is a very late procedure)
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To: Kaslin
Who can be against diversity?

As a primary factor in selection....I am.
Competency, scholastic ability, physical fitness, psychological makeup, loyalty to the US, and exemplary conduct are far more important than diversity.

33 posted on 07/07/2009 5:43:52 AM PDT by kenmcg (THE)
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To: Kozak

LOL@ the phonetic captioning of that moron’s speeeech.

It’s quite a tribute to the sheeple who elected these idiots to public office.


34 posted on 07/07/2009 5:44:32 AM PDT by Canedawg (FUBO)
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To: DieHard the Hunter

How do you know which box to tic? My 6 great grandmother was born in Cape Town, South Africa, So I can, despite my Blond Hair and blue eyes, I can tic AA. My 5 GGM was born in Java, so I can also check Asian or Pacific Islander. I think when ACORN comes to take the census, I will claim NA as I am sure I can find one of those, since my first ancestor to come to North America was In Mass in 1640.
With out comment,I will mention my experience in staffing a chemical plant. One of the tests used for General Ability screening had 50 questions. The plant set a minimum score if 30 with no experience, and 20 with experience. My task was to staff the lab, and due to the technical nature of the job, we set the minimum at 35 NE & 25 WE. We were to hire 6 techs. We were given 36 prescreened applicants, 6 minority and and 30 other. The scores of the 5 hired other class applicants were:
37-NE (College Grad)
36-NE do
30-EX
29-EX
27-EX
Scores of the minority applicants, all college Graduates and Public school teachers.
12 We Hired this one
Unsucessful applicants minority class
10
8
7
7
6
I won’t comment but this test is not used any more, you can interpret the results for yourself.
barbra ann


35 posted on 07/07/2009 5:45:08 AM PDT by barb-tex
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To: Kaslin

The arrogant paternalism of the Progressive Left never sleeps. Their credo is “Poor _________(insert name of favored group), you’ll never measure up on your own, so we’ll lower the standard.” In this case, it also aligns with the goal of destroying the military class at its core...the service academies. The obsession with “diversity” is an extension of socialist egalitarianism. Merit-based reward is supplanted by a quest for “equality of result.” Tradition is debased. In his book, “Vision of the Anointed”, Thomas Sowell refers to members of the favored group as “mascots”. Unfortunately for Annapolis and the Navy, mascots seldom morph into “leaders”.


36 posted on 07/07/2009 6:01:02 AM PDT by CharlesThe Hammer
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To: Kaslin
All a part of the plan to destroy the United States by destroying all its institutions.

As there are no vacuums in nature, when one thing moves out, another moves in.

Competence leaves, Incompetence enters, god leaves, evil enters.

The One Worlders are still on schedule. But the destruction is what the voters voted for in 2006 and 2008.

As America loses its influence, the Nations of the East, Mid East, and Europe increase theirs.

I saw the media lying again about the situation in Honduras last night.

37 posted on 07/07/2009 6:15:40 AM PDT by sport
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To: wita

In August 1962 following completion of boot camp I reported to Electronics “A” school at Treasure Island for a 38 week electronics technician school. On orientation day we were told that we were a select group, to qualify for the school we had to be among the very highest scoring recruits in the Navy academically. The minimum allowable test scores were about the same as the minimum for Mensa. They also told us that the Navy had recently lowered the minimum scores slightly because it had been brought to their attention that the academic requirements for electronics school had been higher than the requirements for the Naval academy.

It now appears that some people who could not in any circumstance qualify for the old electronics school are being accepted at Annapolis as officer candidates.


38 posted on 07/07/2009 6:36:37 AM PDT by RipSawyer (Change has come to America and all hope is gone.)
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To: RipSawyer

...and thus being the best of the best, suddenly gets watered down to anyone with half a brain could do this job.


39 posted on 07/07/2009 7:02:57 AM PDT by wita
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To: WellyP
I doubt that you have spent much time at "The Academy" or have had much, if any contact with the professors and teachers!

Spent '73-74 Plebe year there (Class of '77/ 30th Company), but I was "over the wall" a lot.
40 posted on 07/07/2009 7:19:56 AM PDT by Thrownatbirth (.....Iraq Invasion fan since '91.)
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To: Kaslin

AS US Army retired I cant see how this is possible.


41 posted on 07/07/2009 7:38:03 AM PDT by CPT Clay (Pick up your weapon and follow me.)
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To: Kaslin

I was in a career field that graduated about 24 students a year with a 75% wash out rate in school and a 50% wash out rate in the field that included several additional years of field training. The Air Force thought that was a waste of money even though the job requirements needed an extremely high level of expertise and skill. So, the AF spoon fed the test answers to the students in the schools to get them to pass but set up a field training program to assume a 90% wash out rate, all to ensure the training schools didn’t have to report a 75% washout rate. Within a few years the entire program was canceled.


42 posted on 07/07/2009 8:51:12 AM PDT by CodeToad (If it weren't for physics and law enforcement I'd be unstoppable!)
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To: Kaslin

This is why you can not be so sure that the military will not turn on the US population upon Obam bam’s command. We are talking about a corrupted leadership of the future Navy here. The same is true of the Army and Air Force officers’ corps.

We are absolute fools to trust any part of the government to protect and respect the constitution here. Military leaders are being trained to be disloyal to the country and it’s people.


43 posted on 07/07/2009 10:47:36 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: Thrownatbirth
They certainly deserved a shot at a commission.

No one deserves consideration at 300-400 SAT. At that level most brain cells are at work to tie shoes.

I say save the 600 scores for fleet sailor/marines, not minority civilians.

44 posted on 07/07/2009 1:23:37 PM PDT by Jacquerie (That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men.)
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To: SaraJohnson

Good Points.

The Navy has become a cross between a bordello and a county-run vocational school.

Your assessment is correct. The “new breed” of Senior Officer is an “executive” wannabe, with all the perks of Office that accompanied soviet style fifedom, including dachas.

I won’t be suprised to see the National Guard shooting our own “rioters” in the street after the next election day yields a horribly criminalized majority win for the regime.

God take me before I see that.


45 posted on 07/07/2009 1:35:05 PM PDT by SubmarineNuke (To the Sea I shall return)
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To: SubmarineNuke

Dachas?

Do tell.


46 posted on 07/07/2009 1:55:42 PM PDT by Jacquerie (That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men.)
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To: Jacquerie
No one deserves consideration at 300-400 SAT.

You get a score of 200, just for writing your name on the test.

47 posted on 07/07/2009 2:09:44 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
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To: barb-tex
My 6 great grandmother was born in Cape Town, South Africa, So I can, despite my Blond Hair and blue eyes, I can tic AA.

Used to work with a girl from Columbia. Blond hair, blue eyes, Hispanic surname, sexy Latin-American accent. She always checked the "Hispanic" box. Knew another white girl who married a Hispanic man. Her last name became "Hernandez" and she checked the "Hispanic" box as well. Camerian Diaz? Hispanic. Christina Aguilera? Hispanic. Charlize Theron? African-America (she earned her citizenship).

48 posted on 07/07/2009 2:18:21 PM PDT by Drew68
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To: Drew68

Of course there is no “Hispanic” race amd they used to be called “white” till Lulac became powerful. I used to live in South TX and a leading AA said “we Anglos got to stick together”
barbra ann


49 posted on 07/07/2009 4:01:53 PM PDT by barb-tex
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To: Jacquerie
I say save the 600 scores for fleet sailor/marines, not minority civilians

NAPS didn't have any civilians - only enlisted folks. Most of sailors/marines needed college-bound 600-700 SAT scores (1200-1400 combined math/verbal) just to survive the NAPS academics. Keep in mind not everyone took SATs back then. Your SECNAV appointment to the USNA was based on your NAPS academic performance.
50 posted on 07/07/2009 7:29:06 PM PDT by Thrownatbirth (.....Iraq Invasion fan since '91.)
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