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Freeper help: The Certificate
self | 7/29/09 | LS

Posted on 07/29/2009 8:58:42 AM PDT by LS

Freepers: in preparing for radio shows and appearances, I need some information. Yes, it's here (someplace) on FR, usually buried in a myriad of links. So I'm asking your help to get some concise and clear answers on some "birther" issues:

1) Is there a difference between a "Certificate of Live Birth" and a "Birth Certificate?" If so, what are the specific differences, and can a non-U.S. citizen obtain either or both?

2) Was, or was not, Pakistan on the State Department's "banned travel" list when Obama went there. This has been asserted and denied. Can anyone provide a list of such states from "da gubment" on the date in question?

3) In the noise and confusion, I have heard that a) the Hawaiian records were destroyed in 2001 or 2002; that b) the birth certificate exists; or c) a copy of the birth certificate exists. Which is it?

4) Is such personal information on a public figure subject to FOIA? (I know, it would take years, even if it was, but just asking).

5) What officials have claimed to have actually seen this, and would they know what to look for (if they inspected it at all?)


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: article2section1; barackobama; bho44; birthcertificate; birthers; certifigate; colb; imom; naturalborn; obama; obamanoncitizenissue; obroma
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Look, I know there is a tremendous propensity to "go off" on a thread like this, but let's try to keep it to information, as specific as possible, and I'll see what I can do to, shall we say, enhance public discussion.
1 posted on 07/29/2009 8:58:42 AM PDT by LS
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To: LS; LucyT

Can you ping the list? I think between all of us, we can help him.


2 posted on 07/29/2009 8:59:26 AM PDT by autumnraine (You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out!)
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To: LS

My biggest thing is the incorrect statements that no matter where Obama was born, he is a citizen. Even Natural Born.

He is not as his mother was not old enough to be eligible to transfer citizenship on her own and his father was not a US citizen.


3 posted on 07/29/2009 9:00:48 AM PDT by autumnraine (You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out!)
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To: autumnraine

what radio show so we can listen?


4 posted on 07/29/2009 9:01:20 AM PDT by remaxagnt (`)
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To: autumnraine

Thanks. I’d like to urge people to answer in your own words, not send me a bunch of links. I mean, the links are fine, but I’ll like some simple, direct Freeper analysis, which is ALWAYS superior.


5 posted on 07/29/2009 9:01:23 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: LS
Here's a thread about the long form BC. It has lots of links and info. I wish it would say when the lady got the BC's. That would determine if they are still available.
6 posted on 07/29/2009 9:01:32 AM PDT by raybbr (It's going to get a lot worse now that the anchor babies are voting!)
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To: remaxagnt

No clue yet-—but these things come up constantly, and so far, I’ve just not “gone there.”


7 posted on 07/29/2009 9:02:09 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: LS
This link will give answers to 1,3 & 5 but not 2 & 4.
8 posted on 07/29/2009 9:02:36 AM PDT by ckilmer (Phi)
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To: LS

If 0be were really interested in demonstrating openness and transparency, he’d start handing out certified copies of his 1961 BC.


9 posted on 07/29/2009 9:03:03 AM PDT by Paladin2 (Big Ears + Big Spending --> BigEarMarx, the man behind TOTUS)
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To: autumnraine
"He is not as his mother was not old enough to be eligible to transfer citizenship on her own"

Wait, this is the first time I've heard this. I know of no requirement that the mother be of a certain age. What law is this?

10 posted on 07/29/2009 9:03:20 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: LS; pissant

IIRC Pissant seems to be following this pretty closely. They may have some good info.


11 posted on 07/29/2009 9:04:10 AM PDT by chrisser (Jim Thompson is the the finest, bravest, most honorable American I have ever known...)
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To: LS
1) "Is there a difference between a "Certificate of Live Birth" and a "Birth Certificate?" If so, what are the specific differences, and can a non-U.S. citizen obtain either or both?"

I do not think there is a difference between those two you address, but there is a difference between CertificaTION of Live Birth (of which Obama's says) and CertifiCATE of live Birth.

12 posted on 07/29/2009 9:05:05 AM PDT by Spunky (You are free to make choices, but not free from the consequences.)
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To: LS

In answer to #1- yes. Invite any radio show host to go try to obtain a passport or driver’s license with a COLB such as the one displayed by Daily KOS “proving” Obama’s birth. Ask why Obama’s half sister born in Jakarta has a COLB?

Ask why if this online COLB was proof of birth, the CinC’s legal team did not give a copy to the judge in court, instead of rescinding deployment orders for a US military officer bound for Afghanistan.

Good Luck.

And ask why the so-called Hawaiian newspaper birth annnouncment lists an address at which no obama or Dunham ever lived. Fact.


13 posted on 07/29/2009 9:06:08 AM PDT by silverleaf (If you can't be a good example, at least don't be a horrible lesson)
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To: LS
Great analysis and update here on FR. Also check out our websites The Obama Disaster and Reward for Obama's Birth Certificate
14 posted on 07/29/2009 9:06:32 AM PDT by Stayfree (REWARD FOR OBAMA'S BIRTH CERTIFICATE.COM)
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To: LS
Wait, this is the first time I've heard this. I know of no requirement that the mother be of a certain age. What law is this?

Clearing the Smoke on Obama’s Eligibility: An Intelligence Investigator’s June 10 Report

—snippet—

In 1961 if a 17 year old American girl gave birth in a foreign country to a child whose father was not an American citizen, that child had no right to any American citizenship, let alone the “natural born” citizenship that qualifies someone for the Presidency under Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution.

“ 7 FAM 1133.2-2 Original Provisions and Amendments to Section 301

(CT:CON-204; 11-01-2007)

“a. Section 301 as Effective on December 24, 1952: When enacted in 1952, section 301 required a U.S. citizen married to an alien to have been physically present in the United States for ten years, including five after reaching the age of fourteen, to transmit citizenship to foreign-born children. The ten-year transmission requirement remained in effect from 12:01 a.m. EDT December 24, 1952, through midnight November 13, 1986, and still is applicable to persons born during that period.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/?page_id=2697

12 posted on Tuesday, July 28, 2009 10:44:20 PM by 2ndDivisionVet

15 posted on 07/29/2009 9:07:43 AM PDT by raybbr (It's going to get a lot worse now that the anchor babies are voting!)
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To: LS

The law that refers to is no longer in effect but it was the law in 1961. But it applies to children born outside the United States. Basically it meant that an unmarried woman under age 21 giving birth abroad and the father is not a citizen—that child does not automatically receive citizenship.


16 posted on 07/29/2009 9:08:06 AM PDT by Burkean
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To: LS
Pakistan was under a travel advisory. There were time restrictions for visits etc. but no ban to the best of my knowledge. The FOIA should apply for such a high office as Constitutional eligibility should not be doubt, I'm pretty sure it doesn't.
17 posted on 07/29/2009 9:08:10 AM PDT by allmost
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To: LS

We suspect there are two documents on record, the original and an amended one, showing he was adopted by Soetero, and so the question is, has he now, and did he ever have, Indonesian citizenship? Did he renounce it? Did he travel to Indonesian and what passport did he use?


18 posted on 07/29/2009 9:08:17 AM PDT by 1000 silverlings (Everything that deceives also enchants: Plato)
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To: LS
"He is not as his mother was not old enough to be eligible to transfer citizenship on her own"

Wait, this is the first time I've heard this. I know of no requirement that the mother be of a certain age. What law is this?

It was the law of the State of Hawaii in 1961. It has since been changed, but it was not made retroactive. A mother who gave birth outside of the US with a foreigner as the father could only transfer citizenship if she had lived in the US for 5 years after she was 16 years old. Stanley Ann Dunham was only 19 at the time of Barack's birth, so she was not old enough.

I do not believe that that applied if the baby were born in Hawaii -- just if he were born in another country. But I'm not a lawyer and I don't even play one on TV.

19 posted on 07/29/2009 9:09:08 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: LS
This is the most cogent article on Obama's birth certificate problem.

Article

20 posted on 07/29/2009 9:10:32 AM PDT by McBuff
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To: ckilmer

Well, this is fantastic. Long, but fantastic. Thank you.


21 posted on 07/29/2009 9:12:04 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: LS
As for the Pakistan stuff, here's a pdf of a State Dept advisory from August 1981. What it advises is that you can pick up a 30-day tourist visa at the airport in Pakistan when you get there, but that you're crossing the border from India you need to already have your visa, because they don't give them out at that crossing.

State Dept. Travel Advisory 81-33A

It's also worth noting that in 1981, the Reagan administration sent Pakistan billions in military and economic aid.

As far as I know, the only two countries that have ever been banned for Americans to travel to are Cuba and Libya. Hell, you can go to North Korea as far as the US cares. The North Koreans won't let you in, but the US won't stop you.

Also, here's a New York Times travel section article from 1981 about visiting beautiful Lahore. LAHORE, A SURVIVOR WITH A BITTERSWEET HISTORY

22 posted on 07/29/2009 9:12:48 AM PDT by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: LS

This is a COMMON misperception that people keep throwing out on this site. It hinges on his mother being legally married. She wasn’t. Obama Sr was already LEGALLY married in a marriage recognized by Kenyan and UK Law.

Hawaii would have recognized THAT marriage as legal and therefore the marriage to Ann could not take place IF THEY HAD TOLD THE TRUTH ON THE MARRIAGE APPLICATION.

Thus the out of wedlock provision is applicable.

If people are going to quote the married part of the statute then they should ALSO put a caveat in there about the marriage not being legal.

If I didn’t tell you this..you would assume the poster was right and go out half cocked on a radio show.

This is why I am getting tired of this claim that he is not a US citizen if born in Kenya. NOT SO. You would have to argue that Hawaii would not have recognized the tribal marriage that was LEGAL in Kenya. The problem is,, they would recognize it.

The other out is if you can find something that requires CONTIGUOUS one year residency RIGHT BEFORE BIRTH. I have seen that no where. Maybe it is out there.

You can read a Supreme Court case that talks about the out of wedlock part of the statute.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-2071.ZS.html


23 posted on 07/29/2009 9:12:53 AM PDT by RummyChick
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To: silverleaf

Yes, good stuff. The link posted above is absolutely killer.


24 posted on 07/29/2009 9:13:15 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: Stayfree

Yes, fantastic. Thanks.


25 posted on 07/29/2009 9:13:39 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: raybbr

Good. Thanks. I see now.


26 posted on 07/29/2009 9:13:58 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: LS
2) Was, or was not, Pakistan on the State Department's "banned travel" list when Obama went there. This has been asserted and denied. Can anyone provide a list of such states from "da gubment" on the date in question?

There is no such State Department "banned travel" list.

3) In the noise and confusion, I have heard that a) the Hawaiian records were destroyed in 2001 or 2002; that b) the birth certificate exists; or c) a copy of the birth certificate exists. Which is it?

Original Hawaiian birth records certainly still exist, either on paper or microfilm.

4) Is such personal information on a public figure subject to FOIA? (I know, it would take years, even if it was, but just asking).

No, FOIA is federal law and Hawaiian birth info is governed by Hawaiian law. It is not public information.

5) What officials have claimed to have actually seen this, and would they know what to look for (if they inspected it at all?)

Why wouldn't they "know what to look for?" They deal with the same information every day.

27 posted on 07/29/2009 9:14:58 AM PDT by iowamark (certified by Michael Steele as "ugly and incendiary")
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To: LS

The information you are requesting requires that you show a valid birth certificate to verify your identity, before it can be provided....


28 posted on 07/29/2009 9:15:38 AM PDT by MrDem (From Morning in America to Mourning in America...)
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To: iowamark

We had business people traveling to Pakistan during that time period. US citizens could go, but they did need visa.
There is no doubt that Pakistan and Indonesia both know more about what passport Obama was traveling on during those visits. I don’t think he would have needed a visa to go to Pakistan if he was carrying an Indonesian passport.


29 posted on 07/29/2009 9:17:34 AM PDT by Oldexpat
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To: LS

Do yourself a favor and start here.

http://www.westernjournalism.com/?page_id=2697


30 posted on 07/29/2009 9:18:59 AM PDT by smokingfrog (No man's life, liberty or property is safe while the legislature is in session. I AM JIM THOMPSON)
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To: afraidfortherepublic

Dunham’s travels need to be reconstructed, in order to establish that she was OOTC at the time.

Its hard for me to believe that she jetted off to Kenya,
Indonesia, or anywhere else during her late term.

Does any such evidence exist?


31 posted on 07/29/2009 9:20:49 AM PDT by rahbert ("when they feel the heat they'll see the light")
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To: LS

It’s immigration law. The original immigration site on find law has condensed the wording to just the title of the law, but I have the actual wording of the law on an attorney’s website. UCLA Law Professor Volkh said in a Chicago Times article it didn’t matter where he was born, his mother was a citizen. I emailed the information and confirmed my information and made a RETRACTION on his website.

Ok, so here is the immigration law website, take note of the 1952 to 1986. Keep in mind that the ‘anchor’ baby law that says if you born on US soil you are a citizen regardless of your parents citizenship status until 1986. And the law was not retroactive.

http://www.brianwilliamslaw.com/lawyer-attorney-5365F1DF-5EEB-4DC0-BD003808196CBB9E.html

4. December 24, 1952 to November 13, 1986
If at the time of your birth both your parents were U.S. citizens and at least one had a prior residence in the United States, you automatically acquired U.S. citizenship with no conditions for retaining it.

If only one parent was a U.S. citizen at the time of your birth, that parent must have resided in the United States for at least ten years, at least five of which had to be after the age of 16. There are no conditions placed on retaining this type of citizenship. If your one U.S. citizen parent is your father and you were born outside of marriage, the same rules apply if your father legally legitimated you before your 21st birthday and you were unmarried at the time. If legitimization occurred after November 14, 1986, your father must have established paternity prior to your 18th birthday, either by acknowledgment or by court order, and must have stated in writing that he would support you financially until your 18th birthday.

http://immigration.findlaw.com/immigration/immigration-citizenship-naturalization/immigration-citizenship-naturalization-did-you-know.html


32 posted on 07/29/2009 9:25:01 AM PDT by autumnraine (You can't fix stupid, but you can vote it out!)
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: smokingfrog

You are doing her NO favor to send her to a site that is putting up misleading info.

Why does that site not address the out of wedlock provision of that law? Because it doesn’t fit their agenda?????

Not only do they need to put the out of wedlock provision on there..they also need to find the law or the case law that would allow Obama’s mother and father to be considered married for the purposes of that law when at least one parent lied in order to get married.


34 posted on 07/29/2009 9:25:51 AM PDT by RummyChick
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To: Presley OBannon

Yes, this is great. Thanks.


35 posted on 07/29/2009 9:28:11 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: LS
1) Is there a difference between a "Certificate of Live Birth" and a "Birth Certificate?"

I'd recommend you go HERE: Obama's "birth certificate" - the devil's in the details

It will tell you MORE than any other single source will about the entire "birth certificate" program and its history in Hawaii. There are numerous LOOPHOLES for Obama, his mother and guardian (grandmother "Toots") to have exploited -- NUMEROUS loopholes.

36 posted on 07/29/2009 9:28:30 AM PDT by BP2 (I think, therefore I'm a conservative)
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To: autumnraine

Got it. Thanks.


37 posted on 07/29/2009 9:28:37 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: MrDem

LOL. Will you accept a certification of live birth?


38 posted on 07/29/2009 9:29:08 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: iowamark

They wouldn’t know what to look for if they were covering up, right?


39 posted on 07/29/2009 9:29:51 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: Oldexpat

And an Indonesian passport would have made any possible Haj that he did as a side trip on that trip to Pakistan easier.


40 posted on 07/29/2009 9:30:30 AM PDT by bvw
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To: BP2

Got it. Thanks.


41 posted on 07/29/2009 9:31:03 AM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: rahbert

Her time line is hard to construct because there are so many lies in that family. THEY (OR DADDY) LIED ON THE MARRIAGE APPLICATION so clearly they (OR DADDY) had no problem breaking the law.

There is a REASON for her to go. She needed a legal marriage and she would have to go to Kenya to get it.

The other reason is that she didn’t want her child born in the US - because she was a radical.

I don’t really believe that was the reason- if she went.

Obama was a lawyer. He isn’t anymore. He was a constitutional lawyer. He is held to a higher standard.

He knew or should have known that he could not be a legal UK citizen unless

His mother went to kenya and got married
OR
he was born in kenya.

He claimed he was a UK citzen. So maybe he really was born in Kenya.


42 posted on 07/29/2009 9:31:03 AM PDT by RummyChick
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To: afraidfortherepublic

I heard Michale Medved say on his radio show that Stanley Ann missed the citizenship rule by a couple of months. If she was born on November 29, 1942, by how many months did she fail to make the five year rule? It is obvious that Medved does not want to do the math.


43 posted on 07/29/2009 9:35:09 AM PDT by jonrick46 (The Obama Administration is a blueprint for Fabian Socialism.)
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To: RummyChick

Please just post the documentation that confirms his father was definitely married already in Kenya. Please do NOT tell me to read Obama’s book.

Thank you.


44 posted on 07/29/2009 9:36:45 AM PDT by spacejunkie2001
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To: rahbert
Does any such evidence exist?

As far as I know, no.

There are those who say that she entered the University of Washington in September of 1961. I don't even know if there is proof of that, or anybody who saw her and the baby there. (Obama was born in August 1961.) Since she had graduated from HS in Mercer Island, WA a couple of years prior, surely there were some old friends around who may have seen her. Mercer Island is only a hop, skip, and a jump from UW campus. I had a baby born in June of that year, and I know that I wasn't ready to re-enter college so early after his birth. There are people on these threads that say that she wasn't sighted back in Hawaii until nearly a year after his birth. THe neighbors of the address cited in the newspaper announcement say that she never lived there with her baby and Barack Obama Sr. The address listed in the newspaper (Kapiolani Hwy) is in an expensive neighborhood, not the sort of place a young student-wife-mother could have afforded.

There are many, many unanswered questions and discrepancies.

45 posted on 07/29/2009 9:37:29 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: LS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgnGda-Qhsw


46 posted on 07/29/2009 9:37:44 AM PDT by FreeManWhoCan ("Strange things are afoot at the Circle-K.")
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To: RummyChick
I admit to some confusion about the legal marriage issue. If it's relevant whether or not 0bama was born out of wedlock, I haven't seen it discussed in detail anywhere.
47 posted on 07/29/2009 9:38:07 AM PDT by smokingfrog (No man's life, liberty or property is safe while the legislature is in session. I AM JIM THOMPSON)
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To: iowamark; LS
Hawaiian FOIA equivalent is the Information Practices Act (UIPA), Chapter 92F, Hawaii Revised Statutes.

http://www.state.hi.us/oip/uipa.html#92F2

Here's the purpose of that law:

[§92F-2] Purposes; rules of construction.

In a democracy, the people are vested with the ultimate decision-making power. Government agencies exist to aid the people in the formation and conduct of public policy. Opening up the government processes to public scrutiny and participation is the only viable and reasonable method of protecting the public's interest. Therefore the legislature declares that it is the policy of this State that the formation and conduct of public policy—the discussions, deliberations, decisions, and action of government agencies—shall be conducted as openly as possible.

The policy of conducting government business as openly as possible must be tempered by a recognition of the right of the people to privacy, as embodied in section 6 and section 7 of Article I of the Constitution of the State of Hawaii.

This chapter shall be applied and construed to promote its underlying purposes and policies, which are to:

(1) Promote the public interest in disclosure;

(2) Provide for accurate, relevant, timely, and complete government records;

(3) Enhance governmental accountability through a general policy of access to government records;

(4) Make government accountable to individuals in the collection, use, and dissemination of information relating to them; and

(5) Balance the individual privacy interest and the public access interest, allowing access unless it would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy.

Since Obama has ALREADY released what he claims to be his accurate COLB, what legitimate privacy purpose can be served by Hawaii REFUSING to release the same, but sourced officially, to the public?
48 posted on 07/29/2009 9:38:33 AM PDT by bvw
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To: spacejunkie2001

I have already given you that information. It is sourced in many places INCLUDING an interview with the FIRST WIFE.

Find me a source that says HE WASN’T married to the woman in Kenya.


49 posted on 07/29/2009 9:39:38 AM PDT by RummyChick
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To: autumnraine; LS; Beckwith

The answers to all your questions are here, researched and written by freeper Beckwith:

http://www.theobamafile.com/

The United States Library of Congress has selected The Obama File for inclusion in its historic collections.


50 posted on 07/29/2009 9:39:55 AM PDT by LucyT
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