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The Untimely Demise of the F-22
Weekly Standard ^ | August 17, 2009 | Michael Goldfarb

Posted on 08/14/2009 6:35:52 AM PDT by WhiteCastle

After the Senate vote, General Peter Pawling, who moved to the staff of U.S. Pacific Command earlier this year after serving as commander of the Hawaii Air National Guard's 154th Wing, told Aviation Week's David Fulghum that he was "still planning on getting those airplanes." "There is nothing out there that can fly against it," Pawling said. "If we had a major conflict [against someone with advanced air defenses], I can't imagine going in there with anything but an F-22."

Indeed, that same day Fulghum quoted another Air Force official, this one identified only as a "senior intelligence officer." "The F-35 is not an F‑22 by a long shot," he told Fulghum, "there's no way it's going to penetrate Chinese Air Defenses if there's ever a clash." Concerns about the F-35's ability to penetrate sophisticated air defenses center on doubts about just how stealthy the plane will be. A study published earlier this year by Air Power Australia (Australia is one of the F-35 partner countries) concluded that the Joint Strike Fighter is "demonstrably not a true stealth aircraft in the sense of designs like the F-117A, B-2A, and F-22A." The F-22 can also fly higher, faster, and farther than the F-35 and all while carrying twice as many air-to-air weapons in stealth mode.

(Excerpt) Read more at weeklystandard.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aerospace; f22; f22raptor; raptor; savetheraptor
Barry is the only one capable of shooting down the best fighter aircraft ever developed.
1 posted on 08/14/2009 6:35:52 AM PDT by WhiteCastle
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Comment #2 Removed by Moderator

To: WhiteCastle

One of my favorite pics of the F-22...
3 posted on 08/14/2009 6:38:22 AM PDT by Abathar (Proudly posting without reading the article carefully since 2004)
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To: WhiteCastle
There is a lot of false statements with regard to the F-22. Among them was that there was something on the order of 100 hours of maintenance for each hour of flight. If theses statements were true; that would be one thing, but most of them are patently false.

F-22 Assertions and facts

With Pres. Zero at the helm, congress obviously needs to have 8 new Gulfstreams, more than our country needs to have the ultimate fighter. Since Pres. Zero took the helm, Congressional foreign travel is up 10x over what it was when we actually had a real President. Must be a coincidence, lest I be called a rascist.

4 posted on 08/14/2009 6:42:55 AM PDT by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: WhiteCastle

I am looking forward to seeing “Barry’s” administration go down in flames.


5 posted on 08/14/2009 6:43:31 AM PDT by Texas Fossil (The last time I looked, this is still Texas where I live.)
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To: Abathar
This is so stupid.
We've got the best product of its kind and our allies want to buy it from us.
Why not build it and sell it overseas ?
6 posted on 08/14/2009 6:43:45 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: WhiteCastle

Thanks to the look, USAF pilot training grads can look forward to flying the drones - from a trailer.

Oh joy!

Looks like the Navy is the only choice for aspiring hot shot pilots.


7 posted on 08/14/2009 6:44:38 AM PDT by Da Coyote
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To: WhiteCastle
He and the dems are just making one of many moves toward the inevitable elimination of the US military, as discretionary funds in the US Budget disappear under the load of entitlements - to which they are adding the quickening (HusseinCare, Card Check, Cap N Tax).
8 posted on 08/14/2009 6:47:57 AM PDT by PIF
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To: WhiteCastle
In the Obamanation up to date weapons systems will not be required.

Obama doesn't plan on fighting our foes.
He plans on throwing the doors to the USA wide open and hand us over to them.


9 posted on 08/14/2009 6:49:49 AM PDT by Iron Munro (You can't kill the beast while sucking at its teat - Claire Wolfe)
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To: WhiteCastle

Carter scrapped the B1 Bomber in 1977. Reagan brought it back to life. The F22 will come back if a true conservative is elected in 2012.........


10 posted on 08/14/2009 6:51:52 AM PDT by Red Badger (I am totally against spooning............it eventually leads to forking................)
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To: Eric in the Ozarks

I agree completely, we scale back the electronics and sell it to our allies, Japan, Britain, Australia, S. Korea, Israel, Poland, some of these countries must be interested and it will keep a lot of people employed.


11 posted on 08/14/2009 6:55:33 AM PDT by Abathar (Proudly posting without reading the article carefully since 2004)
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To: WhiteCastle

We have enjoyed Air Supremacy so long we think its our G-d given right. The current, non-AF DOD leadership (from Gates on down) seems to believe that UAVs can provide all the airpower we need. Eventually we will get into a situation where our (increasingly) outdated fighters get unexpectedly waxed. And then the handwringing will begin.

Oh, and someone posted an article yesterday that now the Dems are complaining about the F-35’s costs. I’m sure that they will cancel that too in favor of some future (vaporware) aircraft that is better and cheaper. [/sarc]


12 posted on 08/14/2009 7:00:21 AM PDT by rbg81 (DRAIN THE SWAMP!!)
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To: WhiteCastle
Wars, for whatever reason, keep happening and sooner or later the odds are we will be in fight with an air force that shoots back. There will be losses due to the enemy as well as things like human error, design flaws and political mismanagement. How many aircraft will we need to survive or hopefully win that fight?

The Oct. 2009 issue of Flight Journal has an interesting article about the F-4 Phantom. It ends by noting that "Out of 2,254 Air Force aircraft lost in the Vietnam War, 444 were Phantoms."

While those AF (not Navy or Marine) loss numbers vary a little depending upon the source, it's sobering to consider how many aircraft we currently have in our inventory, the average age of those planes, our current rate of retirement and how long it takes to ramp up production should we ever fight a war where our aircraft are up against another air force.

Supposedly, the brand new F-4 was far superior to the Soviet fighters and our engineering, tactics and training superior to the defenses and pilots of the Vietnamese (and Soviets), yet those are serious losses.

With our past experience, knowledge of human error, as well as our potential adversaries in mind, do we have anywhere near enough aircraft for whatever combat we may face in the future? Gates and obama seem to think so...who are we to think differently?

13 posted on 08/14/2009 7:06:06 AM PDT by GBA
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To: Da Coyote

It is worse than you think - although this thread is a strong argument for not buying ANY new planes for the USAF...what we really need are loudspeakers on balloons.

Air Force may buzz before bombing in Afghanistan:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2315260/posts


14 posted on 08/14/2009 7:10:38 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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To: Eric in the Ozarks

“Indeed, that same day Fulghum quoted another Air Force official, this one identified only as a “senior intelligence officer.”

“The F-35 is not an F‑22 by a long shot,” he told Fulghum, “there’s no way it’s going to penetrate Chinese Air Defenses if there’s ever a clash.”

This should answer your question - when those Chinese air defenses are sold/exported to other countries (like oh maybe I don’t know how ‘bout North Korea or Iran), we will have to ‘negotiate’ with them since we have nothing or nothing in sufficient quantities to get through their defenses - unless as Gates said. “The Air Force must get used to accepting mid to high risk environments.” That is: high losses of planes and pilots.

Naturally, any ‘negotiations’ will end up with the US apologizing and conceding something of great value, like oh let’s say for example, its SOVERENTY! A great idea that the communists like Hussein & Co have fought for since the 1930’s.

So, no, of course, they will not rescind the Obey Amendment - he’s a dem after all and that would set a bad precedent.

Further, it would make our once-upon-a-time allies stronger rather than weaker. Such sales to our once-upon-a-time allies would not only prove the tech, and make the F22 not only the world’s only production 5the gen fighter, but the cheapest as well.

Better to have a plane like the F35 under development and always in the wings to keep the public at bay while quietly destroying the USAF.

Boing Boing is not fighting for the contract to produce more F22s, because for one, they have existential problems that have to be solved first.


15 posted on 08/14/2009 7:15:37 AM PDT by PIF
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To: Da Coyote

The Navy is next for drones.

Our guys fly planes they are more scared of than combat in a lot of cases. Many can’t be flown as they should be for fear of structural failure. You don’t see any F-18s being built either and they are being absolutely beat to death.

We have worn our out equipment defending freedom and liberating those who didn’t have the guts to do it themselves. But we can certainly spend money on political junkets, give aways, pork and buddy bailouts.

AF1 will be worn out by the time zero is through as well. The POS is in that plane almost daily.

Just a thought, someone needs to do a photoshop of AF1 tricked out with spinner wheels, blacked out windows and a homeboy or ghetto look.


16 posted on 08/14/2009 7:16:03 AM PDT by Sequoyah101 (Half of the population is below average)
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To: Da Coyote
An unmanned drone that can pull 20g turns can outfight ANY manned aircraft. It can be built for less than $500,000. It would use laminated paper, aluminum foil and it would be the weapon itself. It would cahse down the foe and ram it! Boom! Five kills and you're an ACE from the comfort of your armchair!

Want to bomb someone? the Predator works just fine!

Piloted arcraft is so wrong and not Wright!

No more remains lost for 18 years in the desert!

17 posted on 08/14/2009 7:19:52 AM PDT by Young Werther (Julius Caesar (Quae Cum Ita Sunt. Since these things are so.))
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To: GBA

A good book on the topic is “Clashes: Air Combat over North Vietnam 1965-1972”, by Marshall L Michel III (ISBN 1-55750-585-3). The author knows of what he speaks and pulls no punches.


18 posted on 08/14/2009 7:19:52 AM PDT by Senator John Blutarski (The progress of government: republic, democracy, technocracy, bureaucracy, plutocracy, kleptocracy,)
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To: Red Badger

The B-1’s usefulness came into question when Soviet aircraft radar was discovered to be more sophisticated and effictive in the “look down” role. It was capable of detecting the B-1, so the “fast and low” approach was deemed to be ineffective.

At the same time, we were deploying both ALCM and GLCM cruise missiles, which offered more bang for the buck.


19 posted on 08/14/2009 7:21:51 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: Sequoyah101

No F/A-18s being built?

What about current production of the Super Hornet, which Boeing is offering in ANOTHER upgrade variant as a hedge against F-35C problems?


20 posted on 08/14/2009 7:25:07 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: WhiteCastle

The American public elected a Islamo_Marxist who wants to destroy the country. A country that is going broke. We do not need top of the line fighters or NASA because we are heading to third world status.

Blame members of the public who are more concerned with college ball games and other nonsense as they head towards serfdom. Until you get 50,000 members of the military and a decent lawyer in a lwsuit asking for the BC - then you are headed towards serfdom.

What really sucks is our soldiers are getting killed in an Afghan circle jerk while muslims flood into America. Just like Rome in the final years. Afghanistan has been like that for 1,000 + years. Nothing is going to change.


21 posted on 08/14/2009 7:31:49 AM PDT by Frantzie (Lou Dobbs - American Hero! Bill O'Reilly = Liar)
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To: Young Werther
The Predator works "just fine" b/c there aren't air and ground defenses to shoot it down. It roams freely with little or no threats to consider.

You and others who feel as you do put too much faith in technology and too little in humans and history.

When the F-4 was designed, it was designed without a gun b/c "the experts" knew modern missiles made dogfighting and a gun obsolete. In actual combat, those "experts" quickly learned the folly of their beliefs and their trust in technology at the cost of our pilots.

Drones are a reality and will do more and more in combat, but only the foolish and the fearful believe they are invincible or will replace piloted fighters and bombers.

"The more complicated the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain."

22 posted on 08/14/2009 7:36:03 AM PDT by GBA
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To: WhiteCastle

The Untimely Demise of the F-22, and the unfortunate still-birth of the F-35? But, in the long run, both are too expensive to build, and too pilot-limited in their performance. I’d guess that both will be convertible to an optional unmanned/drone config sometime soon.


23 posted on 08/14/2009 7:37:05 AM PDT by flowerplough (You're going to destroy my presidency! -Bammy, quoted second-hand by Chuck Grassley)
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To: SJSAMPLE

I knew the Super Hornet was being offered to others but what I have read (including the article referenced in this thread) says that Lockheed is pushing the F-35 at the expense of the F-22 because it is more profitable and will push Boeing (1/3 participant in the F-22) out of the fighter business completely. That doesn’t sound like the F-18 line is going to continue much longer.

The Silent Eagle is being offered as well as the F-18 upgrade but these are workhorses and not fifth gen air superiority fighters. The Australian study is not very complimentary of the F-35 in many roles.

I sand to be corrected but the line for F-18 seems short lived and even at that it doesn’t seem the acquisition program paces the attrition and deterioration pace. The position I take is only opinioneering though.


24 posted on 08/14/2009 7:39:16 AM PDT by Sequoyah101 (Half of the population is below average)
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To: PIF

Where did Gates say that (not questioning you, it’s just that my son is one of those AF pilots who will I guess have to “get used to accepting mid to high risk environments)?

If he said it, Gates is a m***-***ing SOB.


25 posted on 08/14/2009 7:47:56 AM PDT by Sigurdrifta
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To: Sequoyah101

With the F-35s open issues (cost, REAL stealth characteristics), Boeing continues to offer the F/A-18E/F to both partner nations and those not allowed to buy the F-35.

Australia is giving serious thought to the Super Hornet, as is the British navy, given JSF cost overruns and other tech issues.

India is looking at the F/A-18, as well.

I think they’ve still got a market, especially with even more upgrades.


26 posted on 08/14/2009 7:53:37 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: Sequoyah101
"...Lockheed is pushing the F-35 at the expense of the F-22..."

Not true, Lockheed quit fighting for the F22 because they were not gaining any ground with the gov't and the Secy. of Defense and decided to move those resources to selling the F-35 to other customers/countries. They would have loved to have kept that line open and to open the JSF line.

Boeing being pushed out of the fighter business? They did that to themselves. They couldn't even get a grotesquely looking prototype JSF into the air without removing hundreds of pounds of external components and were using basically the same technology for STOVL capabilities. You are aware are you not that Lockheed is not the sole contractor on the JSF? There are other large aerospace contractors involved.

What information is Australia using to base their "less than complimentary assessments" on? They don't even have an aircraft to evaluate. Let's reserve judgement until the actual Flight Testing with actual aircraft gets into full swing and we start seeing what the aircraft is truly capable of before casting aspersions without facts.

SZ

27 posted on 08/14/2009 7:55:25 AM PDT by SZonian (I'm a Canal Zone brat)
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To: Sigurdrifta
I do not remember but it was not all that long ago - maybe search FR for F22 - might be in one of those stories or links to other articles.

Search and you will find.

Yes Sec Gates is as you say a “m***-***ing SOB” much like the other Gates (the ‘professor’).

I think Bush picked him knowing he was bad, but not as bad as someone else Hussein might choose on his own, if he, Bush, had picked a good guy.

Clearly Gates is doing what Hussein wants - shutting down the USAF, in preparation to eliminating the entire US Mil - Hussein must, if he is to fulfill his campaign promises to create a Civilian National Security Force equal to the current US mil, and to unilaterally disarm.

28 posted on 08/14/2009 8:17:41 AM PDT by PIF
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To: Sigurdrifta

Also correctly stated your son will have to accept orders from the USAF Brass to fly in such envirnoments - it was to the Pentagon and USAF Brass Gates was speaking to when he made that statement.


29 posted on 08/14/2009 8:21:54 AM PDT by PIF
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"there's no way it's going to penetrate Chinese Air Defenses if there's ever a clash."

And neither will the F-22 unless it's provided SEAD by one of these:


30 posted on 08/14/2009 8:33:29 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: SJSAMPLE
The B-1’s usefulness came into question when Soviet aircraft radar was discovered to be more sophisticated and effictive in the “look down” role. It was capable of detecting the B-1, so the “fast and low” approach was deemed to be ineffective.

B-1 that Carter killed was the mach 2+ high altitude B-1A. When Reagan brought it back in the 80s, it was the stealthier mach 1+ low altitude B-1B. The B model ditched the variable geometry engine inlets necessary to approach and exceed mach 2, in favor of fixed inlets with a much smaller radar return.

31 posted on 08/14/2009 9:10:35 AM PDT by OA5599
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To: GBA
When the F-4 was designed, it was designed without a gun b/c "the experts" knew modern missiles made dogfighting and a gun obsolete. In actual combat, those "experts" quickly learned the folly of their beliefs and their trust in technology at the cost of our pilots.

It's worse than that. The experts were more or less correct, maybe a little ahead of their time. But it was those who set policy that killed those pilots. The F-4 was designed for BVR combat, but rules of engagement during Vietnam prevented BVR engagements.

32 posted on 08/14/2009 9:15:14 AM PDT by OA5599
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To: WhiteCastle

Sarah will bring the F-22 back in 2013.


33 posted on 08/14/2009 9:17:58 AM PDT by Mogollon (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: OA5599

There’s that little detail about the success rate of the IR Sidewinder compared to the RADAR Sparrow.


34 posted on 08/14/2009 11:35:52 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Eric in the Ozarks
My country's RAAF would like Raptors.
35 posted on 08/16/2009 6:54:07 PM PDT by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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To: Da Coyote
I'd go for Top Guns rather than game freak drone controllers.
36 posted on 08/16/2009 6:57:44 PM PDT by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Unfortunately, those kind of SEAD aircraft are easy meat on the table for the S-300 family of SAMs procured by Russia, China, Iran and any other country with the hard cash to pay for them. An IADS laced with S-300 (SA-20), S-400 (SA-21) and other double-digit SAMs is a virtual brick wall, and the radar sets guiding their missiles have an awful lot of jam resistance, and even home-on-jam mode (i.e. turning the EW aircraft into a homing beacon). Furthermore, the SAM systems are mobile because they are mounted on wheeled vehicles instead of pedestals. This is because Russian SAM system designers took into account the immense role U.S. air power had played in the PGW, eliminating Soviet era SAM systems crewed by Iraqi operators with AGM-88 HARMS, PGMs and EF-111A Raven EW aircraft. Only the Raptor and Spirit can penetrate an S-300 laced IADS and survive, thanks to its all-aspect stealth. The Raptor can be modified into a SEAD role by equipping it with 8 GBU-39 SDBs or 4 AGM-88E HARMs and can use its APG-77 AESA radar in SAR mode. But be advised, the silver bullet SEAD strategy is no longer viable due to the greatly increased SAM survivability rate, where SAM systems can go mobile and quickly relocate to another location simply by packing / unpacking the TEL and acquisition / engagement radar sets in 5 minutes minimum.
37 posted on 08/16/2009 7:20:33 PM PDT by myknowledge (F-22 Raptor: World's Largest Distributor of Sukhoi parts!)
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