Posted on 08/29/2009 5:23:53 AM PDT by Phree Non-Phixion
Calvanist? God Lord haven’t heard that since my history of religion class in college.
What are there 2?
Calvin was not a nice guy - extremely austere as I recall. Moved on quickly. Nothing to see there.
Thanks for the link, Hostage.
True enough. He is a willing vessel, though.
PIF you dismiss Calvin as austere?....
He is one of the central leaders of the Reformation, along with Luther, Knox, etc.
I'm a Christian and belong to a Reformed (Calvinist) denomination.
What is your definition of 'extreme,' Sherman Logan?
Extreme as in someone who takes literally the idea that men can do nothing to assist in their own salvation, that it is entirely and only up to God. I believe Calvin referred to this doctrine as “irresistable grace.” In the long-standing Christian disagreement over God’s foreknowledge versus man’s free will, most would consider Calvin as holding a position on the extreme end of the predestination side.
This doctrine is remarkably similar to the Muslim viewpoint I was originally commenting on.
I’m sure there are nuances to the Calvinist doctrine, but then I suspect there are nuances to the Muslim approximation of it also.
Calvin doesn’t get a lot of good press today. He wasn’t a congenial person by today’s standards. He was, however, probably more influential in the Reformation than anyone other than Luther.
The iron-hard people his doctrines tended to produce were remarkably influential in the French, Dutch, English and Scottish Reformations.
His doctrines were extremely influential in the history of many denominations, although he would probably not recognize most of them today.
While cooking dinner for some grandkids last night (i.e. paying the restaurant bill), I thought about what you said about pre-existing freedoms. Our founders were smart enough to call the *pursuit* of happiness a God-given right. The leaders of the French mobs cried “Liberty! *Equality!* Fraternity!” If the uncritical mass of the mob thought more beheadings would bring them equality of outcome, it’s no wonder they went on killing and destroying everything. In other words, it’s no wonder their effort went so badly astray. Thanks much!
If that's how you define extreme....so be it.
I am extreme.
Irresistable grace more rightly refers to the belief that once you are born again and understand who God is — His glory, majesty, beauty, love, etc. — then His free offer of grace is so compelling by comparison to what you have without Him as to be irresistable. Simply put, once you know God everything else in the universe pales by comparison. You do have free will, but once you truly understand who God is, then responding to His offer is the “irresistably” obvious choice.
The doctrine of grace has nothing whatsoever in common with the Muslim viewpoint that you earn your way into paradise, and can have a sure-fire guaranteed way in by killing an infidel.
When you boil it down, there are only two kinds of religion in the world. One is man’s effort to work/earn his way to God. The other is God’s work on our behalf freely offered to us. Islam is part of the first group. Evangelical Christianity is the second group.
“What is your definition of ‘extreme...”
Biblical literalists. Love to have this discussion, take too long, not today thanks very much.
I was actually responding to Sherman Logan.
That’s perfectly fine. I did not mean the term in the pejorative “extremist” sense of the word.
It is generally agreed among historians that Calvinists were “extremist Protestants” just as Jesuits were “extremist Catholics” during the Reformation and Counter-Reformation periods.
Lutherans and Anglicans were considered more moderate Protestants.
I suspect your definition of irresistable grace is not one that Calvin would recognize. Looks to me like it’s been “nuanced” out of all resemblance to the original doctrine. Calvin himself and his early followers had no problem carrying the doctrine of predestination to its logical conclucion: God had predestined from the beginning of time for some individuals to be saved and others to be damned. And nothing those individuals thought or did could change where they were going.
Not a doctrine I can accept, but you must admire the man’s willingness to accept the logical conclusions of his premise.
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