Posted on 11/25/2009 9:07:41 PM PST by bogusname
“I hope they Mirandized this Ahmed Hashim Abed guy before they punched him.”—Rush Limbaugh
On March 31, 2004, a small convoy guarded by four American civilian contractors was ambushed at Fallujah, Iraq, and the guards were killed. The bodies of the four Blackwater security guards were burnt, hacked, and two of the mutilated bodies were hung for display on a bridge over the Euphrates river.
The San Francisco Chronicle reported that in ” a macabre and murderous town fete, locals cheered as one corpse was attached to a car tow rope and pulled triumphantly up and down the main road….”
The article noted that “In terms of its sheer bestial violence, the attack on the Blackwater operatives was unprecedented….”
The ambush, and desecration of the bodies were all videotaped by Islamic extremists, and subsequently disseminated world-wide as anti-American propaganda...
(Excerpt) Read more at canadafreepress.com ...
AMEN
That said they had better not spend one day in prison. I am drawing the line.
regarding obama
There ARE no terrorists - according to obama - and Ft Hood wasn't a "terrorist act" - according to obama.
The only ones he's referred to as terrorists, so far, are 'some of ' our returning heroes and the tea party folk...and as to your wanting me to give you link a that says the seals profess they didn't slug the guy - it was in the first news stories and I'm sure it can be found by you as well as by me.
As for me, and I am not alone, (hi blackbart.223) I'm 'up to here' with your obviously unaware of all things military - as you said you're "not a soldier" -
I suggest you back off until and if you get such experience. As another posted, to paraphrase, it's people like you that help get our soldiers killed.
To just assume the seals are 'guilty' and take a barbarians word for it - that's the kind of ignorance, or military hating attitude that aids and abets the enemy - encouraging them to ratchet it up.
I'm not assuming to know which is your motivation - but it's about time for you to sthu.
I've got family over there - I know a little bit about what they're facing. You obviously don't.
My son turned 18 last Dec. he had been talking to the Marines since he was a Jr. in High School. I have family and many friends in the military, lots of young men I watched grow up have enlisted. They all told him, if you join now, we will beat you!
I have another good friend of mine who is a Marine Mom, she is sickened by the fact that her son is serving under Obama. He just deployed to Afghanistan 3 mos. ago, she was not nearly as upset when he was in Iraq under Bush.
Could any of yall imagine any other military prosecuting a soldier for a fat lip? We will NEVER win with this nonsense!!!
No. I don’t accept your premise that punching these scumbags would cost lives. How do you arrive at that conclusion in this case? catching terrorists certainly improves morale. Whether they were punched or not doesn’t matter much in this case but could also improve morale.
I'm going to respond to your post, since it's a very reasonable one. We agree that Mr. Abbed is an enemy who is believed to be the person responsible for orchestrating atrocities against American civilians. Our military has chosen to capture rather than kill him. Some on this thread insist on second guessing the special operations officers who made that decision. I don't. He may have had valuable information that will help our military degrade terrorist networks. I simply don't have access to the information that our officers do. Unless there is compelling evidenced that they made a mistake, I think it's reasonable for me to assume special ops officers made the right call. Would you agree with this?
There is also the very clear message that the capture sends—attack American civilians and we will spend over half a decade tracking you down and make you answer for what you did. You can run, you can hide, but we will catch you and you will be brought to justice. In this case, that could very well be execution as a common criminal. This is what we did with Sadaam Hussein. Do you disagree with this? Do you think there is more to be gained by making Mr. Ahmed disappear quickly and quietly vs. asking him in a public trial about why he felt it was necessary to mutilate corpses? I don't think this is an issue of playing nice or tough. I think the trial allows us to expose jihad for what it is. Shine a light on the demonic nature of the acts and let everyone in the PC crowd take a good look at it.
You cited incidents from WWII, so let me ask you, do you think it was a mistake for the Mossad to capture Adolf Eichmann and for Eichmann to be tried in Jerusalem? Do you think General Tojo should have been tried for crimes against humanity, or shot on sight by the first American grunt to lay eyes on him? Mr. Abbed committed absolutely horrific crimes that put him in the same category of criminals as Eichmann and Tojo--a war criminal. Why should his fate be any different than theirs? I understand that no quarter was given in the battlefields of the Pacific, and frequently during WWII in Europe. This is different--we caught this man, and he is a high profile criminal who did very bad things. The difference between Mr. Abbed and your run of the mill jihaidi is that Mr. Abbed turned his attrociites into a world wide media event. A very public trial and a very public execution are, in my opinion, the fitting end for Mr. Abbed and his would-be followers.
I think our military acted correctly in apprehending Mr. Abbed.
As for indignation over 3 navy SEALS facing court martial because Mr. Abbed allegedly took a fist in the face after being housed in the Green Zone, I get that. I hope they are acquitted. But as an officer, would you do nothing if it was brought to your attention that one of your soldiers had punched or beaten a secured prisoner being housed in a safe zone?
Thank you for your post.
“Conversely (and here’s where it pertains to your question)in the same PC corruppted culture many things are done to SOLEY TO SATISFY PC.”
I've never heard of political correctness referred to as cultural corruption, but I think you make an interesting point in doing so.
In this case, however, I think that it would be overly superficial to chalk the decision up to mere political correctness. If I put myself in the shoes of an officer in charge of securing prisoners and I received a report that one of the prisoners had been punched or beaten, I would have to look into it. And I would have to take action if I found the allegations to be credible. If someone is given an order not to beat prisoners, and he smacks one anyway, we've got an issue. The problem here is that the response is potentially disproportionate to the alleged punch. Three elite soldiers serving in a combat zone should not be court martialed for punching a terrorist in the face. But neither can the US military condone punching prisoners in the Green Zone. There is a legitimate dilemma here.
"A military crash that has been two generations in the making is not long off."
I hope that prediction does not come true, TalBlack.
Erman, this is the best assessment I've seen of this. What do you think should have been done?
The "mission" was to bring back a live combatant. He is alive. Mission accomplished. They should be debriefed, intel taken from observers and then the combatant interrogated for whatever information he can give for as long as he is useful.
His capture should have never been made public.
He then should be....... gone. By releasing him to a friendly country that understands the importance of counter terrorism and owes us a debt and is able to discretely help us get rid of this problem.
As far as the men are concerned I have been ,in the distant past ,involved in a small groups and have friends and a father that were involved in Marine Corps and Navy snatch and grab missions.
The important and top most concern was the mission.... coming back with what you grabbed and getting everybody back safe and sound. I seem to remember when there were bones broken, jaws dislocated, teeth missing, possibly the loss of some vision, but if the target was placed in the cage and able to answer questions it was assumed that anything up to and including anything short of killing or disabling the combatant in order for him not to answer questions was understandable in an environment that placed your team in the middle of a situation where everybody involved will die in a most gruesome way.
These SEALs returned home, they have their man and either somebody's knickers were twisted and he was trying to make a "point" by coming down on these three or four SEALs or there is an active component of the military judicial corps that is trying to destroy morale and the effort in counter insurgency.
Intel is the key. Always has been, always will be. Know your enemy, destroy his financing, shelter, supply and manpower. It's a 24/7/365 job that means killing and destroying EVERYBODY that sympathizes, aids or finances these animals.
That's why anybody that really KNOWS what is going on knows that Afghanistan and the "exit" strategy argument is pure unadulterated cr#p. We are in a world wide guerilla war against Islamo-facist that is an amalgamation of different groups using the United States/Capitalism/Christianity as the focus of attack on all fronts. There is no "country" there is only the "movement" of a world wide Jihad to advance a fascist and criminal thugs to power.
Of course I may be wrong and your mileage may differ, but I don't think so.
I know that captain's mast isn't a joke in the SEALs, I'm sure that they wouldn't fight it if they were thinking they were wrong... but their honor is the only thing that is really important to men like those. You have only your word in the SEAL community and it trumps rank, medals and badges. Anybody who is going to war with other men wants to know that that man will cover his flank during an assault, will get to an assigned rendezvous on time, will be on the roof doing over watch with NO EXCUSES and NO CONCERN about his safety but only the safety of his brother SEALs.
That is why they are going to court martial. Will they "get off"? Depends on what the commander in charge and the politicians want. Now that it's public, either way it's going to be long and their careers are over if they were ever hoping for officer rank or command. They're done. Now it comes down to honor.
I personally would make sure that every swinging d#ck that made this public and brought charge without handling it within the unit would be assigned recon duty and infiltration exercises in Cape Krusenstern in the winter and Brooke's Point in the summer...for the rest of their miserable career.
“In this case, however, I think that it would be overly superficial to chalk the decision up to mere political correctness.”
YOU REDUCE TO INSIGNIFICANCE A FORCE WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE NOT JUST FOR INCOPETENCE PROMOTED OVER COMPETENCE FOR 2 GENERATIONS, BUT FOR PROTECTING AN OPEN TRAITOR AMONG THE RANKS UNTIL HE DECIDED TO SLAUGHTER THEM.
AND THEN WITH THIS:
“The problem here is that the response is potentially disproportionate to the alleged punch.”
YOU LITERALLY DESCRIBE PC IN ACTION.
PC requires a mind to hold multiple “realities”. But, as the victims at the Ft.Hood slaughter discovered there is only ONE actual reality.
In the past in this nations military our side, the good guys, had to go a hell of a lot further than popping some enemy in the mouth to wind up on charges. There is plenty of action a commander can traditionall take if he discerns that his word is losing force with the fellas, or that the guys are getting a little loose or sloppy’.
This is all PC run amok. It is the death of Reason befor our very eyes.
Thank you for your detailed response.
That's why anybody that really KNOWS what is going on knows that Afghanistan and the “exit” strategy argument is pure unadulterated cr#p. We are in a world wide guerilla war against Islamo-facist that is an amalgamation of different groups.... There is no “country”... only the “movement” of a world wide Jihad to advance a fascist and criminal thugs to power.”
I agree. We're in a 1400 year old war, and pretending it doesn't exist is the worst thing we could possibly do. I respect Muslims who fight against abortion and other evils, but we have a clash of civilizations. I believe the prophet Mohammad borrowed most of his religious views from Christianity and Judaism, and that he added an enduring violent and imperialistic element by using his religion as a vehicle for violence and conquest. As for us, we will either win or we will be subdued violently. Historically, Islam was tremendously effective against us when it had an organized state and strong, competent leadership, e.g. Saladin. I've read that Suleiman went so far as to finance dissension and religious civil war among Christians. Today, the threat is a territory where violent Islamacists control and form the society and can train their jihadis to attack us.
“The “mission” was to bring back a live combatant. He is alive....These SEALs returned home, they have their man and either somebody’s knickers were twisted and he was trying to make a “point” by coming down on these three or four SEALs.
The reporting on this has been terrible, and we don't have a lot of details, but I have the same reading on this whole situation, and I think this is where the incompetence came into play. It didn't take three SEALS to give one terrorist a puffy lip. As best I can tell, the Iraqis raised the issue, and someone investigated, and received conflicting testimony. The SEALS in the know probably told the investigator that there was no problem. Rather than handle the situation accordingly, I'm guessing an officer lost his cool and decided to make a power play by pushing for the captains mast. Clearly he miscalculated, and now we have a costly fiasco on our hands.
His capture should have never been made public.
This is one area where I see things differently. I think the very sick nature of his crimes discredits or serves as a revelation about his cause, and I think it would be good to have a long public trial where he explains why his religious views motivated him to desecrate corpses. People can either back him or condemn him. The former pulls the curtain back on Muslim views of non-Muslims, while the latter isolated the most twisted jihadis from the society that supports them. I realize that the KSM/Eric Holder fiasco unfolding in NYC doesn't inspire confidence, but I do think there are benefits to trying someone like Abed in an Iraqi civillian court or a US military court.
“Now that it's public, either way it's going to be long and their careers are over if they were ever hoping for officer rank or command. They're done. Now it comes down to honor.”
Three promising careers destroyed by one incompetent administrator. This is unconscionable.
“I personally would make sure that every swinging d#ck that made this public and brought charge without handling it within the unit would be assigned recon duty and infiltration exercises in Cape Krusenstern in the winter and Brooke's Point in the summer...for the rest of their miserable career.”
Sounds like an appropriate solution. I have to run now, but thank you for your service, and thank you for your thoughtful post. I'll look for you on FR. Have a great Thanksgiving.
-iq
Maybe the Navy SEALS should change its name to the SEIU SEALS.
Your points are well taken, thank you.
-iq
Seems to be the moosies plan.
Again, that’s ‘undue command influence’ and if proven, all bets are off and it’s Seals-1, AHA-0. The Undue command influence is a big no-no will bring everything to a grinding halt.
Actions such as the ones taken against the SEALs were ordered by none other than obama himself to destroy morale and comradery in the Armed Forces.
You underestimate the American soldier.
“The ‘military overthrow’ might come via the ballot box”
That’s my prayer. If the US military despairs to the point of a coup, we’ll end up with Sulla, Nero, Tiberias, Colligula, and a public far more cynical than it is today. I hope and pray they can tough Zero out.
“Were you impressed?” The Tea Parties? Are you kidding? I’m proud as heck. I like to think that the early work we did here has planted the seeds.
Some of the old timers are disappointed in my lack of direct involvement, but that’s the way it has to be. The current leadership is better suited, I think. My old ways were more spartan, less grand, when it comes to major movements. I don’t have the resources to keep up with today’s FR leaders.
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