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Losing Our Religion (Christianity will be history if we cut ourselves off from our roots)
National Review ^ | 02/08/2010 | Kathryn Jean Lopez

Posted on 02/08/2010 2:06:18 PM PST by SeekAndFind

Even with its centuries-old roots throughout the continent, is Christianity history in the West?

In a speech at the Catholic University of America in Washington, D.C., the visiting archbishop of Vienna, Christoph Cardinal Schönborn, warned that “trends questioning the Christian foundation of Europe, and aggressively opposing it, are becoming stronger in several countries and in the European political arena in general.”

He explained that “Christianity is for many a foreign element in a world determined by reason, Enlightenment and democratic principles.” He contends that “this Europe, and the Western world as a whole, will not survive without the foreignness Christianity brings. In other words: Europe can only play its role in the concert of world cultures when it retains Christianity, this foreign body, as a part of its identity.”

Almost simultaneously across the pond, the British seemed to get the message, putting aside negotiations that would have placed unprecedented restrictions on religious freedom in the name of a faux freedom. Mandates proposed by the so-called “equality bill” would have removed existing exemptions for religious organizations regarding whom they can employ and to whom they must provide services. Catholic officials in Britain believed that the legislation would force them to ordain women to the priesthood — both an untenable position for the Church and one that the government certainly had no business forcing them into.

The bill was referred to as “an existential threat” to Christian churches in Europe. Sir Jonathan Sacks, the chief rabbi in England, said: “When Christians, Jews, and others feel that the ideology of human rights is threatening their freedoms of association and religious practice, a tension is set in motion that is not healthy for society, freedom, or Britain.”

Britain appears to have put a stop to this — for now. It probably helped that lawmakers were shepherded by the pope himself: During a gathering of bishops from England and Wales in Rome, Pope Benedict XVI heralded Britain’s “firm commitment to equality of opportunity for all members of society.” But he had critical words for the pending legislation. “The effect of some of the legislation designed to achieve this goal has been to impose unjust limitations on the freedom of religious communities to act in accordance with their beliefs,” he said. “In some respects it actually violates the natural law upon which the equality of all human beings is grounded and by which it is guaranteed.”

Demonstrating his familiarity with the tyranny of not-so-tolerant tolerance, the Holy Father proclaims that “fidelity to the Gospel in no way restricts the freedom of others — on the contrary, it serves their freedom by offering them the truth.” He reminded the bishops there that their participation in the debate is in the best “traditions” of Britain — “freedom of expression and honest exchange of opinion” while “giving voice to the convictions of many people who lack the means to express them: when so many of the population claim to be Christian, how could anyone dispute the Gospel’s right to be heard?”

The attitudes expressed in the bill are not foreign to us here in America. Pres. Barack Obama’s nominee for the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, a Georgetown University professor named Chai Feldblum, wrote in 2006 that “just as we do not tolerate private racial beliefs that adversely affect African-Americans in the commercial arena, even if such beliefs are based on religious views, we should similarly not tolerate private beliefs about sexual orientation and gender identity that adversely affect LGBT [lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender] people.” Feldblum believes that there is a “zero-sum game” being played between religious freedom and the homosexual activists, in which “a gain for one side necessarily entails a corresponding loss for the other side.” Religious liberty, in Feldblum’s estimation, must give.

This conversation about religious liberty, homosexuality, and rights will be a prominent one this term as the U.S. Supreme Court takes up Christian Legal Society v. Martinez, in which it will decide whether religious groups on college campuses must be open to members and leaders who do not share their beliefs. The Court will decide, in other words, whether we’re still free to associate or not.

Religious liberty and LGBT activists simply shouldn’t be at odds. Christian churches don’t seek to eliminate LGBT groups, and LGBT groups needn’t threaten the existence of religious congregations that can’t in their moral consciences do as that British equality law — and some laws we’ve seen proposed in the United States (and even passed by the U.S. Senate!) — would have them do.

As David French, a lawyer for the Alliance Defense Fund, which specializes in religious-liberty litigation, recently put it: “If your idea of law is that it is an instrument of domination and exclusion, then, yes, legal disputes between ideological opposites are ‘zero-sum games.’ But if your idea of the Constitution is that it protects the fundamental liberties of all citizens (which happens to be the way the document is written), then — quite literally — everyone wins when those liberties are vindicated.”

Christianity will be history if we cut ourselves off from our roots — moral, yes, but legal, ethical, and political, too. And while more of us need to have a heightened awareness that this threat exists throughout the West — mercifully, it’s not only a pope and a cardinal and even a rabbi who get that.

— Kathryn Jean Lopez is editor-at-large of National Review Online. She can be contacted at klopez@nationalreview.com.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: america; christianity; religion; roots; secularization

1 posted on 02/08/2010 2:06:18 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind
Losing Our Religion (Christianity will be history if we cut ourselves off from our roots)

LOL.... now that's a real big laugh....

I don't care how bad things get, Christianity is never going to be "history"... :-) I hope someone doesn't actually believe that kind of garbage.

I'm not saying how bad the world can get, because it will get worse, but I'm saying that this won't affect Christianity in the least, because it's the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob who has all the say and control over all things in this world...

This is what those in the world who think Christianity will ever be "history" -- should be aware of....

   Psalms Chapter 2

 1 Why do the nations rage, And the people plot a vain thing?

 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, And the rulers take counsel
   together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,

 3 "Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from
   us."

 4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in
   derision.

 5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath, And distress them in His
   deep displeasure:

 6 "Yet I have set My King On My holy hill of Zion."

 7 "I will declare the decree: The Lord has said to Me, 'You are My Son,
   Today I have begotten You.

 8 Ask of Me, and I will give You The nations for Your inheritance, And
   the ends of the earth for Your possession.

 9 You shall break them with a rod of iron; You shall dash them to pieces
   like a potter's vessel.' "

10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings; Be instructed, you judges of the earth.

11 Serve the Lord with fear, And rejoice with trembling.

12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, And you perish in the way, When His
   wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their
   trust in Him.

2 posted on 02/08/2010 2:13:25 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: SeekAndFind

1 Cor 1

Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[c]


3 posted on 02/08/2010 2:19:06 PM PST by Raycpa
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To: SeekAndFind

Galatians 6:14 (New International Version)

14May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which[a] the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.


4 posted on 02/08/2010 2:20:45 PM PST by Raycpa
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To: SeekAndFind

Christianity will never be lost.


5 posted on 02/08/2010 2:23:54 PM PST by svcw (If you are going to quote the Bible know what you are quoting.)
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To: Star Traveler; SeekAndFind

I don’t think the author expressed herself very well. The Cardinal said that Western culture would be history if cut off from Christianity, and I think she was trying to say that rejection of Western culture, particularly as it relates to law and the individual, would lead to repression or possibly suppression of the Christian Church in Western society and an attempt to eliminate it.

It might go underground, it’s certainly not going to disappear! We have God’s promise on that issue.


6 posted on 02/08/2010 2:26:21 PM PST by livius
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To: Star Traveler
The author did not say Christianity would be "history" but could be "history in the West".

Nothing guarantees that Christianity will be dominant in the West forever. Sure, the Church will always be in existence for eternity, but it could lose its dominant status in the West just like it did, for example, in Turkey when Islam invaded.

Of course, we hope and pray that spiritual forces in the West would kindle into a revival, but warnings should be heeded.

7 posted on 02/08/2010 2:27:11 PM PST by Siena Dreaming
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To: Star Traveler

Christianity certainly could be lost (as the speaker said) in the West, just like it was lost in major parts of Asia Minor, the Middle East and North Africa.
Christianity will always remain in some part of the world.


8 posted on 02/08/2010 2:29:56 PM PST by rogator
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To: SeekAndFind

The Apostle Peter’s theology:

1 Peter 1
1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:

15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;

16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

18Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain


9 posted on 02/08/2010 2:30:32 PM PST by WestwardHo (Whom the god would destroy, they first drive mad.)
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To: SeekAndFind

We are losing Christianity because we are abandoning Christ. When Christians begin to follow Jesus and his teachings again, Christianity will return to our culture and our government. It can’t be fixed on the government side.


10 posted on 02/08/2010 2:33:22 PM PST by pallis
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To: All
What we will see is a massive false religion gaining ground in the world, in cooperation with various governments, interacting between governments and religion -- combining to get the "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH"... it will be a filthy and harlotrous religion that will come into play with the coming one-world government that is being put into place right now. We can see that forming right before our eyes, and don't seem to be able to do anything to stop and.

And we won't be able to, because the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has already decreed that it will happen (and He has allowed it). And what comes out of this -- the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will judge and utterly destory (these governments and this "MOTHER OF HARLOTS" religion -- both...

What will come out of it, will be the new one-world government that Jesus, the Messiah of Israel, sets up on this earth, with Him ruling and reigning from Jerusalem, over all the nations of the world.

The nations of the world will no longer be in control of their governments or countries but Jesus the Messiah of Israel will be -- and that will be the one-world government that we look forward to coming...



Revelation Chapter 17

1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and talked
with me, saying to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great
harlot who sits on many waters,

2 with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and the
inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her
fornication."

3 So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a
woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of names of blasphemy,
having seven heads and ten horns.

4 The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold
and precious stones and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of
abominations and the filthiness of her fornication.

5 And on her forehead a name was written: MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the
blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with
great amazement.

7 But the angel said to me, "Why did you marvel? I will tell you the
mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the
seven heads and the ten horns.

8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the
bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth
will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the
foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not,
and yet is.

9 Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven
mountains on which the woman sits.

10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other
has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and
is of the seven, and is going to perdition.

12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have received no
kingdom as yet, but they receive authority for one hour as kings with
the beast.

13 These are of one mind, and they will give their power and authority
to the beast.

14 These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them,
for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him
are called, chosen, and faithful."

15 Then he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the harlot
sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

16 And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the
harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with
fire.

17 For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be
of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of
God are fulfilled.

18 And the woman whom you saw is that great city which reigns over the
kings of the earth."


Revelation Chapter 18

1 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven,
having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory.

2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great
is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a
prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated
bird!

3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her
fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with
her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the
abundance of her luxury."

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my
people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her
plagues.

5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her
iniquities.

6 Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double
according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for
her.

7 In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in
the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her
heart, 'I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.'

8 Therefore her plagues will come in one day--death and mourning and
famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the
Lord God who judges her.

9 "The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived
luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the
smoke of her burning,

10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, 'Alas, alas,
that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your
judgment has come.'

11 And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no
one buys their merchandise anymore:

12 merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine
linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every
kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood,
bronze, iron, and marble;

13 and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and
oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and
bodies and souls of men.

14 The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the
things which are rich and splendid have gone from you, and you shall
find them no more at all.

15 The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at
a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,

16 and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine
linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones
and pearls!

17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.' Every
shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on
the sea, stood at a distance

18 and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, 'What
is like this great city?'

19 They threw dust on their heads and cried out, weeping and wailing,
and saying, 'Alas, alas, that great city, in which all who had ships on
the sea became rich by her wealth! For in one hour she is made
desolate.'

20 Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for
God has avenged you on her!"

21 Then a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw
it into the sea, saying, "Thus with violence the great city Babylon
shall be thrown down, and shall not be found anymore.

22 The sound of harpists, musicians, flutists, and trumpeters shall not
be heard in you anymore. No craftsman of any craft shall be found in
you anymore, and the sound of a millstone shall not be heard in you
anymore.

23 The light of a lamp shall not shine in you anymore, and the voice of
bridegroom and bride shall not be heard in you anymore. For your
merchants were the great men of the earth, for by your sorcery all the
nations were deceived.

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all
who were slain on the earth."

11 posted on 02/08/2010 2:33:41 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: rogator
You were saying ...

Christianity certainly could be lost (as the speaker said) in the West, just like it was lost in major parts of Asia Minor, the Middle East and North Africa. Christianity will always remain in some part of the world.

Christianity will never be lost, because nothing will prevail against Christianity. God is the one who preserves it.

Various countries and cultures, themselves may lose their connection to Christianity and thus not have it as the foundation and basis for their culture or government, but that's not losing Christianity. That is the culture abandoning God. And even so, when the culture abandons God, Christianity still remains, nonetheless.

So, nothing is going to happen to Christianity, but a lot may happen to the countries and the people and the culture who decide to abandon what God has provided by way of His Son, Jesus, the Messiah of Israel.

But, no worries there, because God has already made it clear that He will judge all the nations in the world, including the United States (obviously included in "all" the nations) for its sins and that will happen during the 7-year Tribulation and during the time of the Great Harlot described above, that harlot of false religion, combining forces with the various governments of the world, to bring in the "one-world government" which will be destroyed by the coming of the Messiah of Israel.

12 posted on 02/08/2010 2:40:00 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: WestwardHo

Christianity is not a religion, it is a way to life everlasting.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s who sent me.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

As long as we have leaders that want to enslave the people of this world, God says different in His word.


13 posted on 02/08/2010 2:43:18 PM PST by OldBullrider (if yur hurt, rub some dirt on it, and get back to work)
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To: SeekAndFind
Christianity will be history if we cut ourselves off from our roots — moral, yes, but legal, ethical, and political, too.

Absent Christianity, the idea, the Natural Law basis of our Constitution and our country along with it will die.

14 posted on 02/08/2010 2:47:10 PM PST by Jacquerie (It is only in the context of Natural Law that our Declaration & Constitution form a coherent whole.)
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To: Siena Dreaming
You were saying ...

Of course, we hope and pray that spiritual forces in the West would kindle into a revival, but warnings should be heeded.

The warnings here in this country have not been heeded for a century or more. It's been slipping and slipping for over a century and nothing has turned it back... so it does not look like it's going to turn around to me. There may be pockets here and there, on a small and local and limited basis, but nothing nationally-speaking.

And that's entirely "in synch" with the picture that the Bible paints, coming up on the coming 7-Year Tribulation and the judgment of God upon all the nations. Things will be getting worse and worse, so that God can judge all the nations, as He will.

The main thing for Christians to do is to speak the Gospel of Salvation to all who will listen, because it's the Gospel of Salvation, per the Scriptures which is what God wants Christians to be engaged in because no matter how "good" and "conservative" a government is -- it cannot save, only Jesus, the Messiah of Israel can save -- and that's God's main purpose before the Messiah of Israel comes back to set up His own one-world government upon this earth.

15 posted on 02/08/2010 2:47:52 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: livius
You were saying ...

I don’t think the author expressed herself very well. The Cardinal said that Western culture would be history if cut off from Christianity, and I think she was trying to say that rejection of Western culture, particularly as it relates to law and the individual, would lead to repression or possibly suppression of the Christian Church in Western society and an attempt to eliminate it.

The other problem here, when going down this line of thought is that somehow, some people think that "salvation" can be achieved (in some manner) by the nation being more spiritual or conservative or Christian or something like that. The nation is never "Christian" -- as it's only an individual who is.

Therefore, the main goal is to spread the Gospel of Salvation to all individuals as the matter of primary importance and that can be done no matter what the condition of the government is -- conservative, or liberal, or falling apart and coming apart at the seams.

It's getting the Gospel of Salvation to all individuals for them to accept the salvation that comes from accepting Jesus, as the Messiah of Israel, per the Gospel, which is the primary goal for all Christians (and not what the government is doing, although that would be a commendable secondary goal). But, I fear that the primary goal is being let go of, in place of a secondary goal.

16 posted on 02/08/2010 2:51:32 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
The warnings here in this country have not been heeded for a century or more

Oh, I don't know about that. Reagan got in with a pretty good majority and as a result the Berlin Wall fell which restored a huge amount of freedom of religion back to Eastern Europe.

The Repub Revolution of '94 happened and a bunch of good things happened as a result such as a lessening of abortion which has been continuing throughout the years. Slow, but sure.

And, now, this author and many, many others are giving warnings (this one you didn't quite get thinking she was saying christianity would be history) while Glenn Beck and Fox News numbers are in the stratosphere and Zero's numbers are plummeting. Somebody out there is obviously getting the message.

End-of-the-Worlders have come and gone. Sure, the end of the world will happen at some point and no one including you knows the date or time. But my suspicion is that the US is going to come back stronger after this current seige of socialism is over.

17 posted on 02/08/2010 3:00:58 PM PST by Siena Dreaming
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To: Star Traveler

I believe that we are in agreement.
It is a matter of semantics.


18 posted on 02/08/2010 3:02:16 PM PST by rogator
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To: SeekAndFind

I believe that we must act as if we didn’t know that Christ will prevail in the end. We have been delegated the role of the body of Christ on the earth, and will be judged on our performance in that role, regardless of the eventual outcome, which (we have been assured) is the victory of the Lord.


19 posted on 02/08/2010 3:05:47 PM PST by hellbender
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To: Siena Dreaming
You were saying ...

Oh, I don't know about that. Reagan got in with a pretty good majority and as a result the Berlin Wall fell which restored a huge amount of freedom of religion back to Eastern Europe.

Not in terms of politics and governments and freedom movements and democracy and "the West"... that's all secondary stuff and not very relevant in the scheme of things per the Bible.

It's like these things are "bit players" in the overall grand scheme that God is bringing about, as He says in the Bible. They are here today and gone tomorrow, but the Word of God goes on forever.

What I'm talking about in warnings not heeded is in terms of the Word of God and how it is accepted and used and adhered to in people's lives -- not whether there's a Republican or Democrat in office or whether the West gains advantage against its enemies and so on like that.

When it's all said and done, all the nations of the world will be as nothing compared to the coming Kingdom that Jesus, the Messiah of Israel will set up here on earth, when He sets His foot back on this planet.

That's all been progressing in a "straight line" without deviation for the last 100 years, too... and is building to that final point.

And we see the one-world government being pushed into place, piece by piece, over decades, actually. And it's still moving ahead without slowing down either. This is not an "East/West thing" or a "West against its enemies" thing, or "the have-nations against the have-not nations" thing...

This is about the one-world government that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob says will come into place (as we see it now) and He will judge it and then destroy it and replace it with His own one-world government. That's what Christians look forward to -- this coming one-world government ruled by Jesus, the Messiah of Israel. That's what is going to be the fun part... :-)

20 posted on 02/08/2010 3:13:27 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
Well, it's kind of like. ..IMHO. . .'if a tree falls in the forest and no one is there; does it make a noise. . .'

For all intents and purposes; 'No Christians/No Christianity (while it may 'be'; it may not be; so to speak). And given the times we live in; we can never say never; but I pray. . .that it is never the case.

Certainly, fewer Christians has had an impact. Nature abhors a vacuum; even a spiritual one.

21 posted on 02/08/2010 3:26:25 PM PST by cricket
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To: SeekAndFind

...“fidelity to the Gospel in no way restricts the freedom of others — on the contrary, it serves their freedom by offering them the truth.”

***
Tell it, B16!


22 posted on 02/08/2010 3:26:34 PM PST by Bigg Red (Palin/Hunter 2012 -- Bolton their Secretary of State)
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To: cricket
You were saying ...

For all intents and purposes; 'No Christians/No Christianity (while it may 'be'; it may not be; so to speak). And given the times we live in; we can never say never; but I pray. . .that it is never the case.

Sure, I understand what you're talking about there. From what God says in the Bible, however, He always has a remnant, no matter what.

There were those, described in the Bible, who thought they were the only one left (or maybe just a few). God set them straight, too... and let them know that God knows where they are and He always has a remnant. :-)

You may not see a true Christian church on every other corner, or any church at all, but Christianity is not "in a church" -- it's in a person, so it doesn't matter if there is a church or not, because the actual "church" are the people themselves, who are Christians -- not an organization, not a structure, not even a preacher (or an evangelist) or a building or anything like that.

Christianity will always be around and will never disappear.

There will come a time (which I think we're moving quickly towards right now) in which people will wonder if there is Christianity any more and if it is going to disappear. That's just a viewpoint from the human side of things, not God's side of things, though.

23 posted on 02/08/2010 3:33:37 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
What I'm talking about in warnings not heeded is in terms of the Word of God and how it is accepted and used and adhered to in people's lives

Exactly...and when that Wall came crashing down a WHOLE lot of people in Eastern Europe were given the freedom again to adhere to and put that Word of God into practice BECAUSE of the West's efforts.

whether the West gains advantage against its enemies

I don't think you get how "freedom movements" as you put it and "the West" are integral to promoting the very Word you venerate...and how its enemies are opposed to the Word spreading. You really shouldn't lessen the importance of the people in politics God raises up to promote His freedom in the world and in so doing allows the Word to be taught freely.

24 posted on 02/08/2010 3:41:21 PM PST by Siena Dreaming
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To: SeekAndFind

Interesting dichotomy in the responses to this thread. This must be the “hyper-individualism” I’ve heard so much about but never could really understand. Now, I think I do.


25 posted on 02/08/2010 3:51:27 PM PST by Oratam
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To: Siena Dreaming
You were saying ...

Exactly...and when that Wall came crashing down a WHOLE lot of people in Eastern Europe were given the freedom again to adhere to and put that Word of God into practice BECAUSE of the West's efforts.

It's been shown before, in history, that "Christianity" thrives under persecution. So, when it's "free" (in the manner you're saying) it seems to get weak and flacid. So, that might not be such a good deal after all... :-)

I mean, I'm for religious freedom, as I would hate to have to exist in a repressive state in which anyone who is known to be a Christian would be persecuted and made to be a second-rate citizen or killed outright (as happens now in many places). And I also wouldn't want to made it a "prescription" for the success of Christianity -- to "persecute Christians" so Christianity can succeed much bettter (as it seems to do).

But, having said that ... freedom of religion hasn't done too much good for Christianity, except bring in a lot of non-Christian cult groups and more ways to deceive people and more evil practices in religious circles.

And to put it in yet another way... when Jesus, the Messiah of Israel takes control over the world, and install His one-world government -- there will be no freedom of religion allowed.

You will not have any of the cult groups, the witchcraft, the evil practices and so on. There will be only one faith and one belief and only one to choose from, or else you die -- and that's it.

So, freedom of religion is not all it's cracked up to be... :-)


I don't think you get how "freedom movements" as you put it and "the West" are integral to promoting the very Word you venerate...and how its enemies are opposed to the Word spreading. You really shouldn't lessen the importance of the people in politics God raises up to promote His freedom in the world and in so doing allows the Word to be taught freely.

As I was saying, Christianity has thrived very well under severe persecution and is refreshed that way. Under "freedom" it wanes and eventually dies in those cultures and evil takes over.... unfortunately... that's the way it's been over the centuries, from what I've read from Christian authors and from what we see in repressive countries right now.

26 posted on 02/08/2010 3:51:27 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
So, freedom of religion is not all it's cracked up to be... :-)

Ugh. Another naysayer of the 1st amendment.

Sure, many will abuse their freedom and go the way of dissipation and false worship. Others will follow God, use their giftings and give to others. Freedom tests who has true faith and who does not. But one should never denigrate this precious, precious gift which is full of God's blessing and which St. Paul continually advocated in the Epistles.

To say that the Church in the Sudan (or even France under socialism) is "thriving" nowadays is quite naive :(

27 posted on 02/08/2010 4:01:03 PM PST by Siena Dreaming
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To: Siena Dreaming
You were saying ...

Ugh. Another naysayer of the 1st amendment.

You'll notice that I was talking about Christianity and how it has thrived under persecution and how it has grown weak and flacid under freedom of religion, and that has happened many times. That says nothing about the 1st Amendment.

But, if I were to say something about it, which is this....

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

I would say that Christianity, itself is being done no service by freedom of religion, as that's been used against it many times, including the wording "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" -- to remove even the speaking of Christianity in government to be illegal.

That's doing Christianity no favors at all. There's nothing good about that, in terms of Christianity.

In addition to that, other religions have used it as a "hammer" on Christianity, to either get it removed from some venue -- or -- to get themselves installed in the same venue, if Christianity is there. Again, that's no favor for Christianity.

And going further, the so-called "Religion of Peace" is actually no religion at all, but is really a "governmental idealogy" which is masquereding as a religion, in order to become established enough to overthrow the government of the United States and install their own government (not "religion" and not "freedom of religion" either).

And with them, that is Islam, that should be made illegal and totally removed from this country, because it's a governmental idealogy designed specifically for the overthrow of governments around the world and establishing themselves as the governing authority and outlawing others.

So, we "allow" them in here long enough until they can overthrow us, and then we're outlawed... in the process... LOL... that's what they'll do... :-)

Sorry, in terms of Christianity and what "favor" it is to it -- from "freedom of religion" -- it hasn't been getting too much in the way of "favors" there lately and it's going to get worse -- under the "name" of freedom of religion.

28 posted on 02/08/2010 4:13:59 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Siena Dreaming
This is the kind of thing you will read about, countless times, in Christian circles and Christian books and in regards to Christianity in history. It's repeated over and over again... this is just one sample... that's all...



Laotian Christians Thrive Under Persecution

Communist drive to stamp out Christianity in Laos is having an opposite effect.

By Baptist Press Staff in Laos | posted 10/01/2000 12:00AM

New converts to Christianity in Laos, the communist neighbor of Vietnam and Cambodia, are pressured to sign a fill-in-the-blank form.The form reads in part: "I, (name), who live ... in (location), believe in a foreign religion, which the imperialists have used for their own benefit to divide the united front and to build power for themselves against the local authorities. Now, I and my family clearly see the intentions of the enemy, and regret the deeds which we have committed. We have clearly seen the goodness of the Party and the Government.

"Therefore, I and my family ... voluntarily and unequivocally resign from believing in this foreign religion."

If you sign, you also promise not to participate in this "foreign religion"—Christianity in every reported case—or any of its meetings and ceremonies. You also agree that if the authorities should catch you continuing to practice your faith, you must "accept that the government shall do to me whatever is required by its laws."

Those who refuse to sign can expect humiliation, harassment, and persecution, including probable imprisonment. Some Christians who refuse to sign have been placed in wooden stocks.

The document's widespread, ongoing use by provincial and local Laotian officials has been authenticated by the World Evangelical Fellowship's Religious Liberty Commission and other sources. Hundreds of rural Christians reportedly have been forced to sign the form in public, then compelled to participate in animistic sacrifices.

The constitution of Laos, ratified in 1991, guarantees "the right and freedom to believe or not believe in religions." But many evangelical Christians, who have been persecuted with increasing intensity as they have grown in number, report cases of abuse and retribution for their worship of Christ. The state continues to outlaw evangelism, religious training, and church-planting, despite the constitution's free belief clause.

29 posted on 02/08/2010 4:20:10 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
Our country has thrived for 200 years under our Constitution, which is one of the best legislative safeguards of freedom there has ever been.

These freedoms, of course, include the Christian Church which has done wonders during that time to promote freedoms beyond our borders around the world. This has involved not only spreading religious freedoms, but also following Jesus' command to provide material comforts for those who are needy.

Without the Church in America we would not have been able to defeat the socialistic nightmares of Nazi Germany and Bolshevik Russia.

What God desires is for those forces of freedom to continue, not diminish. Despite you believing that a diminishment of freedom is preferable--this freedom in the US, if God grants a continuance, will continue to extend freedoms to other countries which are not blessed with it. This will include using, as it always has, political and military tools.

I sure hope the number of people like you who believe freedom to be less than desirable does not continue to grow. I appreciate the Christians in politics like Sarah Palin who believe fervently that God's way is to fight against the forces which would diminish freedom and to promote what has always been the clarion call of the USA.

30 posted on 02/08/2010 4:53:41 PM PST by Siena Dreaming
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To: SeekAndFind

Christianity is synonymous with history. Always has been, always will be.


31 posted on 02/08/2010 5:47:42 PM PST by the invisib1e hand (governance is not sovereignty [paraphrasing Bishop Fulton Sheen].)
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To: Siena Dreaming
You were saying ...

Our country has thrived for 200 years under our Constitution, which is one of the best legislative safeguards of freedom there has ever been.

The government has worked well, for this length of time for what the founders set up, and that's good for you and me and all the others who came before us. It's not been perfect and things are progressively getting worse, but that's more because of the people (in this nation today) rather than the form of government.

The laws that the people put into place, the changes they make to the government and the officials they put into office will be no better than what the people choose and if the people choose differently than they have for the last couple of hundred years, thing will be worse, regardless of the type or form of government you have. The people will simply change it from what it once was, which is what seems to be happening now, in the laws, with the regulations, with the courts, with the elected officials, with the Congress, with the Presidency -- and you name it.

So, while it was good, it was as good as the people who were involved in it..., and we can see which direction it's been going over the last many deades.


These freedoms, of course, include the Christian Church which has done wonders during that time to promote freedoms beyond our borders around the world. This has involved not only spreading religious freedoms, but also following Jesus' command to provide material comforts for those who are needy.

It doesn't help to confuse the United States, with Christianity -- or to think that the U.S. is the highest form of government that one can have for Christianity or that Christianity would normally and naturally produce this form of government.

Christianity is separate from the government, this one or any government, and is not to be considered part and parcel of any government. Christianity should have influence over the people and the people should have influence over the government, but Christianity is not the government.

Christianity is about fundamentally and primarily about the Salvation that comes from the saving faith in Jesus, the Messiah of Israel. And it's fundamentally and primarily about spreading that Gospel message of this salvation, per the Scriptures, in regard to Jesus, the Messiah of Israel.

It's not about creating a Christian government, because you're never going to have that by human hands. God makes that clear.

In His word, the only government which is going to be perfect is the one which is going to be established by the Messiah of Israel, when He comes back to this earth to defeat the one-world government that is forming now. And He puts in its place His own one-world government. And this government won't have the laws or the freedoms that we take for granted in the United States.

It will be a monarchy, a king-ship reign, over all the nations, and as the Bible says, a rule as with a rod of iron, with justice being strict and quick, according to His word.

That's the perfect government that we'll have in the soon-to-come future, and it will be by His hands and not ours.

And, furthermore the job of Christianity is not to spread freedoms around the world and in other countries -- but rather -- the job of Christianity is to spread the very specific and narrow "Gospel Message of Salvation" by means of accepting Jesus, the Messiah of Israel as the only way and the only Savior that one can have and the only way to eternal life -- all other ways, no matter what they are simply leading to the lake of fire and eternal damnation.

That's the job of Christianity, until Jesus, the Messiah of Israel returns. Anything else that Christianity does, is always secondary and is not the prime goal of what it should do in the world. There are other things that Christianity does, but they are never to take the primary position of importance -- over the Gospel of Salvation and getting that to all the people in the world. That's always the first and prime goal of Christianity.

And in no case is it the goal of Christianity to spred freedom, as Christianity has no ability to do so. It con only offer salvation and eternal life to the individual and not determine or order the way governments operate. Only Jesus, the Messiah of Israel has that task -- and He will do it, Himself, when He returns and goes to war against all his enemies and destroys them upon His return. He's the one who will institute His government -- not Christians or Christianity, in our day or this time.


Without the Church in America we would not have been able to defeat the socialistic nightmares of Nazi Germany and Bolshevik Russia.

What God desires is for those forces of freedom to continue, not diminish.

You might say that without Christians who lived in this country that this country could not have done that. And that's understandable. But, it's the people who are Christians (and even then, not all of them were, but there was a mainstream culture, or a memory of a culture, which held to certain Christian values, whether every person was a Christian or not). But, these "values" are rapidly being forgotten, because people are abandoning Christianity (in this country) and abandoning God (and as a culture, rather than every last single individual).

But, I wouldn't equate this country with Christianity, because this country is far from it and it was far from it, even back then -- even though there were mainstream values that existed in our culture which had their bedrock in Christian values. It was and has been part of the "memory" of the culture we live in, even though the culture is rapidly abandoning it.

As for what God desires, He only desires that all be saved, from the Salvation that He offers, in His Son, in that He died on the cross and was buried and raised from the dead, and all that believe in Him for their personal salvation -- will be saved -- on that basis, alone. That's what God desires.

He also desires, as has been His plan from the beginning, to bring mankind back to the way things were at the Garden of Eden, without evil in the world, without sin and without Satan being here any longer. And that's what He is working towards, right now -- along with bringing a "people" that He has called out from among the nations, to be His own, to live in that "new world" that He will re-establish here on this earth, without sin, without evil, without Satan, without any of the ills that have come about, from the time of the Garden of Eden. That's what God desires and what He is working towards (as that's not what we can do anything about, becuase that's all in God's hands alone).

The only part we have in this is to accept the salvation that He offers, through His Son, and put our trust in Jesus carrying through on the salvation that He promises. You do that, you put your trust in Him and that God will do as He says He will, given the sacrifice of Jesus, the Messiah of Israel -- you will be saved, on that basis alone. That's what God desires.

The U.S. is not in the plan of God, as we see written in the Bible. Israel is, and other nations are, but not the U.S. It's not mentioned by location, by race, by people, by description or by any methodology in the Bible (although people do try and strain at a gnat to put the U.S. in the Bible in some way... LOL...).

God has no other purpose for the U.S. other than to bring about the things that will happen with Israel in the end days, and that's probably all that the U.S. is good for.

God is not trying to spread freedom in this world, as it's an evil place and it's is destined to be totally and utterly destroyed -- the world will not be saved, although individuals in the world will be saved.

It's the coming of the Messiah of Israel, in which He destroys all the mechanisms and philosophies and governments and religions -- that will establish true freedom. This is the freedom that God will bring, when the Messiah of Israel returns to earth to set up this freedom, by His own hand.


Despite you believing that a diminishment of freedom is preferable--this freedom in the US, if God grants a continuance, will continue to extend freedoms to other countries which are not blessed with it. This will include using, as it always has, political and military tools.

I made the point in the above post, if you read them, that I didn't prefer persecution. But, I also pointed out that these freedoms that you mention have not been for the benefit of Christianity, in that they have made many Christians weak and flacid and of no good use.

On the other hand, I've also pointed out that the church has thrived under persecution, but me (as with anyone else) we would not relish the idea of being persecuted -- but at the same time, Jesus tells us that we will be persecuted. Some are persecuted more than others, though -- it seems, in this world. The U.S. Christians can barely refer to being persecuted, although the screws are being put to the U.S. Christians, nonetheless.

And with all the political and military tools that the U.S. has, it will never create a world full of freedom or even get close to that. It will never happen and the Word of God makes that clear. Maybe 100 or so years ago, many thought that this was happening in the world, that we were getting smarter and better all the time and that we would reach the utopia fairly soon -- but you don't find that much any more... :-)

If we look around the world, to Europe to the Middle East, to Russia, to China and to South America -- it doesn't look like "freedom" is doing too well and it's not likely to do well in the coming years. We're headed towards that evil one-world government that the Bible tells us about and that God says He will judge and destroy utterly, as the Messiah of Israel comes back to earth to go to war against those people and those nations who fight on behalf of this one-world government.

He sets up His own one-world government and does away with every other government in the world, including the U.S.'s government and establishes one with Him as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, over all the nations of the world (and we're talking about the nations that you're looking at today... those very same nations and many of the same people you see alive and breathing today).

No amount of military and/or political tools that the U.S. has, will ever bring that kind of freedom to the world.


I sure hope the number of people like you who believe freedom to be less than desirable does not continue to grow. I appreciate the Christians in politics like Sarah Palin who believe fervently that God's way is to fight against the forces which would diminish freedom and to promote what has always been the clarion call of the USA.

The clarion call for freedom to the world -- is solely and only through Jesus, the Messiah of Israel setting up His one-world government and ruling over all the nations of the world, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. That's the only true clarion call that the Christian has.

Other than that, as obedient citizens (in any country) Christians should live peaceably and within the laws of the country, participate where they can and be at peace with whomever will allow them to be at peace with others.

Outside of that, the Christians primary responsibility per the Bible is to spread the Gospel of the Salvation that is offered through the free gift from Jesus, the Messiah of Israel, for all who will put their trust in Him, to do as He says He will and for their eternal life, with Him.

32 posted on 02/08/2010 5:54:07 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
Having a 'remnant' is not acceptable, IMHO; but of course, who are we to say; and 'who knows'. We are fast moving into a future fashioned by demographics; and Christianity is being usurped by radical Islam, fast and furiously, while their population numbers grow and 'ours' diminish.

Am cocerned and fear the 'power' inherent in these demographics - the hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world - and we have fewer hands and cradles. . .

33 posted on 02/08/2010 5:56:13 PM PST by cricket
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To: Star Traveler
You use WAY too many words.

Not many will want to wade through it all.

34 posted on 02/08/2010 5:58:46 PM PST by what's up
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To: what's up
Well then, only that ones who want to will matter then... :-)

[ ... I'm sure some have told God the same thing about His Bible... LOL..., although I'm not comparing my post to His Bible... :-) ... but merely that some people will read things and others won't...]

35 posted on 02/08/2010 6:01:04 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
You said: "Well then, only that ones who want to will matter then..."

I think there are lots who matter who don't want to read your huge posts.

36 posted on 02/08/2010 6:04:48 PM PST by what's up
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To: cricket
You were saying ...

Am cocerned and fear the 'power' inherent in these demographics - the hand that rocks the cradle, rules the world - and we have fewer hands and cradles.

Absolutely yes, and that's another indicator for me, that the timing is right for these things to happen to Israel that the Bible says will happen -- especially because of these demographics. See the following from another post of mine...


That evil and oppressive governmental idealogy of Islam and the way of implementing it by Sharia law is already making inroads right here in this country — the good ole USA. We’re about to see a “takeover” of the U.S. by the evil and oppressive idealogy of the government of Islam (that is aiming for world-wide conquest and has stated that the U.S. is *on its list* to take over...)

And for those people who need some additional facts about what the evil and oppressive governmental idealogy of Islam is doing, look at some of the following.

There’s no question about it... the enemy is *Islam* itself and the evil and oppressive and false idealogy that it perpetrates. Some say the problem is “fascism” (instead of the basic oppressive governmental idealogy of Islam, itself). But, that is to engage in “political correctness” and nothing more... and sidetracks people from the *true enemy* in this war.

In one generation we’ll see, right here in the United States that “Islam” is the enemy and not “fascism”...

Muslim Demographics...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

and also, this...

Islam: What the West Needs to Know - FULL LENGTH ENGLISH VERSION
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-871902797772997781

and then, looking at this...

“The Third Jihad” (video - abridged version of film)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2271522/posts

This is the allowance of “false gods” to take over this nation because of the ignorance of the people of the land in regards to the true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...

And so, we see that we’re going to have the “false god of Islam” ruling over the USA and running the USA in just one generation from now.

37 posted on 02/08/2010 6:05:47 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: what's up
You were saying ...

I think there are lots who matter who don't want to read your huge posts.

Let me clarify that for you then, so you can "get the context in which you presented it" -- here... :-)

You said that many will not want to wade through it... and I said that only the ones "who want to" -- will matter then (in terms of reading it)...

In other words, it's just like some threads that someone says, "Why did you post that, I wouldn't ever read it!"

Well then... the answer is -- "Don't read it!" LOL.... pretty simple... :-)

38 posted on 02/08/2010 6:09:00 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them in derision.

Yes, man can shout and shake his puny little fist all he wants.

The extent to which Western civilization jettisons its roots is the extent to which Western civilization yanks out the pinions that unite it. The Brits and most other nations of Western Europe are myopic fools to ask, "Who is the LORD?" They will get their just reward in this age and the age to come.

39 posted on 02/08/2010 9:26:58 PM PST by Lexinom
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To: Star Traveler
Yes, thanks for links. Do follow closely - albeit, painfully - the 'jihad' maps. It is fearsome to behold worlwide/and yes; right here in USA (am amazed that we worry about our borders; given those we give visas to. . .and the rest of the 'American Dream' for that matter.

Do wish more Churches would be waking up their people to the threat. Am thinking if they did - or perhaps they fear, if they did - there would be fewer showing up on Sunday. (And then of course, within many Churches, political correctness rules; and as many, no doubt, who have yet to realize the threat that Islam promises.)

Meantime, do think the power is in the present; and that while prophetic road maps can give warnings per 'road taken'; think the Bible is known for showing the power of an alternate route.

Hope so, anyway/sigh. . .

40 posted on 02/09/2010 12:56:05 AM PST by cricket
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