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Wall St. Helped Greece to Mask Debt Fueling Europe’s Crisis(Goldman Sachs implicated again)
NYT ^ | 02/14/10 | LOUISE STORY, LANDON THOMAS Jr. and NELSON D. SCHWARTZ

Posted on 02/14/2010 4:07:25 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster

February 14, 2010

Wall St. Helped Greece to Mask Debt Fueling Europe’s Crisis

By LOUISE STORY, LANDON THOMAS Jr. and NELSON D. SCHWARTZ

Wall Street tactics akin to the ones that fostered subprime mortgages in America have worsened the financial crisis shaking Greece and undermining the euro by enabling European governments to hide their mounting debts.

As worries over Greece rattle world markets, records and interviews show that with Wall Street’s help, the nation engaged in a decade-long effort to skirt European debt limits. One deal created by Goldman Sachs helped obscure billions in debt from the budget overseers in Brussels.

Even as the crisis was nearing the flashpoint, banks were searching for ways to help Greece forestall the day of reckoning. In early November — three months before Athens became the epicenter of global financial anxiety — a team from Goldman Sachs arrived in the ancient city with a very modern proposition for a government struggling to pay its bills, according to two people who were briefed on the meeting.

The bankers, led by Goldman’s president, Gary D. Cohn, held out a financing instrument that would have pushed debt from Greece’s health care system far into the future, much as when strapped homeowners take out second mortgages to pay off their credit cards.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: coverup; goldmansachs; greece; partisanmediashills; sharia; shhhhhsharia; sovereigndefault; taxpayers4sharia

1 posted on 02/14/2010 4:07:26 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster
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To: TigerLikesRooster; PAR35; AndyJackson; Thane_Banquo; nicksaunt; MadLibDisease; happygrl; ...

P!


2 posted on 02/14/2010 4:07:55 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster (LUV DIC -- L,U,V-shaped recession, Depression, Inflation, Collapse)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

What do you mean, implicated? They’re just providing the services that the customers are looking to buy.


3 posted on 02/14/2010 4:21:49 AM PST by proxy_user
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To: proxy_user
They’re just providing the services that the customers are looking to buy.

Same thing can be said about subprimes, and AIG's CDS. It is the nature of transaction which matters. Complicit in the arrangement of hiding debts and overleveraging.

4 posted on 02/14/2010 4:29:40 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster (LUV DIC -- L,U,V-shaped recession, Depression, Inflation, Collapse)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

enabling European governments to hide their mounting debts.We need rules I tell ya gotta have rules./s


5 posted on 02/14/2010 4:45:21 AM PST by Vaduz
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To: TigerLikesRooster

and we should believe the New York Times because.... ???


6 posted on 02/14/2010 5:00:40 AM PST by ThreePuttinDude (o).. Elect Marco Rubio in 2010 .. (o)
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To: ThreePuttinDude
Because other sources also mention it, too.

Der Spiegel: How Goldman Sachs Helped Greece to Mask its True Debt

It has become fashionable to use free economy and anti-liberal sentiment as a cover for (usually pro-liberal) financial oligarchy's misdeed.

7 posted on 02/14/2010 5:14:02 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster (LUV DIC -- L,U,V-shaped recession, Depression, Inflation, Collapse)
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To: TigerLikesRooster
Meanwhile....

Greece Outlaws Cash Transactions Above 1500 Euros, Unveils New Taxes

Oh, boy...

8 posted on 02/14/2010 5:18:29 AM PST by mewzilla (I'm not a socialist. Heck, yes, I hope Barry fails. Sheesh.)
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To: mewzilla
I guess they have to resort to barter transaction.
9 posted on 02/14/2010 5:24:39 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster (LUV DIC -- L,U,V-shaped recession, Depression, Inflation, Collapse)
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To: ThreePuttinDude

...because in this case it is correct.


10 posted on 02/14/2010 5:27:11 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: mewzilla

Honestly, they have a HUGE tax evasion problem out there. The whole southern europe is culturally predisposed against paying any kind of taxes at all, and noone has any qualms commiting blatant tax evasion crimes that people go to prison over here. The inept governments have had very little success clamping down on it. Heck in some places they advertise on billboards “please pay your taxes, it pays for the schools and hospitals”.


11 posted on 02/14/2010 5:27:50 AM PST by farlander (Sic Semper Tyrannis)
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To: TigerLikesRooster
I think in mob parlance this is known as a “bust out”.
12 posted on 02/14/2010 5:28:09 AM PST by Kid Shelleen (Keep your socialized health care off my body !!)
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To: farlander

Has a democratic country done this before, made transactions above a certain amount illegal, anyone recall?


13 posted on 02/14/2010 5:32:10 AM PST by mewzilla (I'm not a socialist. Heck, yes, I hope Barry fails. Sheesh.)
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To: mewzilla

....cash transactions....


14 posted on 02/14/2010 5:32:33 AM PST by mewzilla (I'm not a socialist. Heck, yes, I hope Barry fails. Sheesh.)
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To: proxy_user

What do you mean, implicated? They’re just providing the services that the customers are looking to buy.........

Same as meth and crack dealers


15 posted on 02/14/2010 5:33:28 AM PST by dennisw (It all comes 'round again --Fairport)
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To: mewzilla

Maybe it’s just me, but I find what Greece has just done frickin’ scary....


16 posted on 02/14/2010 5:34:10 AM PST by mewzilla (I'm not a socialist. Heck, yes, I hope Barry fails. Sheesh.)
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To: ThreePuttinDude

You have been asleep
The Goldman Sachs/Greece connection is all over the news. Not just the NY Times.


17 posted on 02/14/2010 5:35:48 AM PST by dennisw (It all comes 'round again --Fairport)
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To: dennisw

I’m not up to speed I guess, I don’t trust the
New York Times to tell me what time it is much
less news and events of the world... sorry

Pinch should just go eat a cr_p sandwich.. there I said it.


18 posted on 02/14/2010 5:43:12 AM PST by ThreePuttinDude (o).. Elect Marco Rubio in 2010 .. (o)
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To: farlander
The whole southern europe is culturally predisposed against paying any kind of taxes at all, and noone has any qualms commiting blatant tax evasion crimes that people go to prison over here.

Maybe southern Europe needs to switch over to a vastly superior and cheap to implement taxation system like this:

I'm surprised somebody in Europe hasn't read this book and figured out that by no longer taxing the process of earning money, the local economy would literally rocket upward because you attract foreign companies to set up operations in your country. Mind you, Switzerland won't like this because it would kill much of their offshore financial center banking business, though.

19 posted on 02/14/2010 5:51:31 AM PST by RayChuang88 (FairTax: America's economic cure)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

According to recent Chicago Trib article the following debt exists as a percent of GDP:

Japan Iceland Italy Greece Belgium
197% 145% 127% 123% 105%

France US Canada Germany
92% 86% 82% 92%

How bad off are we? I duno. How bad off is everyone else? The same or worse. Possible solutions? World war?

How do you get a planet full of people to pull their head out of their ass?

Do you know where I can get a fiddle for the impending fire?


20 posted on 02/14/2010 5:53:14 AM PST by 10thzodiac
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To: 10thzodiac

The first thing to do is to secure a place where you can play fiddle. It may be harder than getting a fiddle, because just about everywhere would be on fire.


21 posted on 02/14/2010 5:55:48 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster (LUV DIC -- L,U,V-shaped recession, Depression, Inflation, Collapse)
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To: mewzilla
Wow, check this out. From the there-are-none-so-blind side....

Don't laugh at Europe's woes. The travails facing Greece are also oursThe struggle to stop Greece from becoming a failed state and to make the euro work is one for all Europe, including Britain

22 posted on 02/14/2010 5:56:07 AM PST by mewzilla (I'm not a socialist. Heck, yes, I hope Barry fails. Sheesh.)
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To: proxy_user
They’re just providing the services that the customers are looking to buy.

Absolutely. Just like drug dealers. Consequences to society at large be damned...profit is king.

23 posted on 02/14/2010 6:02:13 AM PST by Wolfie
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To: proxy_user

like casino operators.


24 posted on 02/14/2010 6:03:10 AM PST by jd777
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To: 10thzodiac
The global future is option two. What follows, I don't know. World war, global depression, an attempt to foist a new global central bank on us, with a single global fiat currency, a return to the gold standar....the field is wide open. But the fiat era is ending.

"There is no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion. The alternative is only whether the crisis should come sooner as a result of a voluntary abandonment of further credit expansion, or later as a final and total catastrophe of the currency system involved."

-~~Ludwig Von Mises

25 posted on 02/14/2010 6:14:18 AM PST by Travis McGee (----www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com----)
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To: Travis McGee

“Remember, democracy never lasts long,” said Adams. “It soon wastes, exhausts and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.”

Added Jefferson, “A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51 percent of the people may take away the rights of the other 49.” Madison agreed: “Democracy is the most vile form of government.”

Travis, we’re good for another 40-50 years before we go the way of the British Empire. We could pay our DEBT back double if we wanted too. Not. Those with the BIG GUNS make the rules (world). The good news is we won’t be here in 40-50 years. Well at least me anyways...

Aren’t you glad we are a Republic ?


26 posted on 02/14/2010 6:41:20 AM PST by 10thzodiac
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To: 10thzodiac

If we can keep it.


27 posted on 02/14/2010 6:45:56 AM PST by Travis McGee (----www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com----)
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To: 10thzodiac
None of this is cheering me up one bit... booze in the hands of a drunk and debt in the hands of politicians...same result. To Washington, debt is free money and they never seem to understand that all of this stimulus money and public spending has to be paid back. Or... they know damn well it needs to be paid back and they are amassing it anyway to kill off our republic. WE MUST DISMANTLE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AND RETURN POWER TO THE INDIVIDUAL STATES AND THE PEOPLE...
28 posted on 02/14/2010 6:51:58 AM PST by April Lexington (Study the constitution so you know what they are taking away!)
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To: mewzilla
Bleak article. The socialist establishment is raping the productive class in a half*ssed attempt to cover over its profligate spending. Tax the productive class until they all move to China!
29 posted on 02/14/2010 6:54:41 AM PST by April Lexington (Study the constitution so you know what they are taking away!)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

so Germany’s agenda is to throw Greece under the bus and the NYT agenda is to throw Goldman (and Sachs) under the bus (for Acorn and Obama)... so who’s complicit now? Ya know, bankers often are accused of ‘doing their job’! GS just does their job better than anyone else!


30 posted on 02/14/2010 6:56:20 AM PST by CRBDeuce (here, while the internet is still free of the Fairness Doctrine)
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To: CRBDeuce
Yes, CountryWide did its job, and its customers were happy. Crack dealer does its job and crackhead is happy.

So following this tradition, you, GS, and others keep on doing your job. Let's see what the "god's work" leads to.

It is a form of 'Bust Out.' Taxpayers all over the world would have to foot the bill from this fallout in the end.

31 posted on 02/14/2010 7:07:44 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster (LUV DIC -- L,U,V-shaped recession, Depression, Inflation, Collapse)
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To: CRBDeuce
As for Greece and GS, both are deserved to be thrown under the bus just as Dems and Obama are.
32 posted on 02/14/2010 7:09:40 AM PST by TigerLikesRooster (LUV DIC -- L,U,V-shaped recession, Depression, Inflation, Collapse)
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To: farlander
The HUGE tax evasion problem in Greece...something like 40% don't pay taxes due, and 40% of the economy is 'under the table'. Gonna get them kicked out of the EU along with the other PIIGS as well. Especially if 40% of the currently paying countries stop paying as well! Of Course, the USA is nearing that cliff, with over half of the country on the take (instead of paying taxes, they're collecting from those that do... especially talking about gummit bureaucrats). Even if a gummit bureaucrat pays his taxes it's just going out of one pocket into the other...tough to claim productivity in that 'effort'!!
33 posted on 02/14/2010 7:17:50 AM PST by CRBDeuce (here, while the internet is still free of the Fairness Doctrine)
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To: April Lexington

One Problem Moving To China: Millions hungry - less arable land per capita than one of the poorest countries in the world - Bangladesh, plus if you’ve been to PRC you wouldn’t want to live there. China is its own ticking time bomb 1 billion 300 million and they keep screwing themselves away from the dinner table every nano-second.


34 posted on 02/14/2010 7:38:58 AM PST by 10thzodiac
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To: Wolfie

>> Consequences to society at large be damned...profit is king.

Yes, but profits for kings.

And let’s stop giving capitalism a bad name by labeling the array of shenanigans as “Crony Capitalism”. Subsidizing broken and corrupt systems with taxpayer funding is no form of capitalism.


35 posted on 02/14/2010 7:40:16 AM PST by Gene Eric (Your Hope has been redistributed. Here's your Change.)
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To: RayChuang88

Does Greece have a VAT?

That’s like the ‘Fair Tax,’ but with the added virtue of a characteristic European bureaucracy whose deleterious effects are (as always) out of proportion to its great size.


36 posted on 02/14/2010 7:59:59 AM PST by Erasmus (Buffalo: "I never met an Indian I didn't like, with the possible exception of Deepak Chopra.")
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To: 10thzodiac; mewzilla
I think what zilla meant was that the productive activity will move to China, leaving the Greek formerly-productive individuals with nothing to do but to go down on the sinking ship along with their mooch-countrymen.
37 posted on 02/14/2010 8:05:28 AM PST by Erasmus (Buffalo: "I never met an Indian I didn't like, with the possible exception of Deepak Chopra.")
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To: 10thzodiac

I might add that your point about China’s potentially explosive problems is sobering. If China blows up (economically and therefore politically), it will be a literally world-class cataclysm.


38 posted on 02/14/2010 8:07:56 AM PST by Erasmus (Buffalo: "I never met an Indian I didn't like, with the possible exception of Deepak Chopra.")
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To: Erasmus; April Lexington

I just noticed that 10thzodiac was responding to you, not mewzilla, so it’s you that I meant to ping.

On rereading your post, maybe you actually were talking about productive Greek individuals physically moving to China.

My first interpretation of your post, however, seems the more likely scenario to me.


39 posted on 02/14/2010 8:11:41 AM PST by Erasmus (Buffalo: "I never met an Indian I didn't like, with the possible exception of Deepak Chopra.")
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To: TigerLikesRooster

Goldman Sachs should be immediately torn apart and sold off. Oh wait.....half of Jack Squat’s folks are Goldman Sachs linked....oh wait, Goldman Sachs was one of Jack Squat’s largest contributors....my bad.


40 posted on 02/14/2010 9:50:21 AM PST by cranked
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To: mewzilla
Great comment at the link you provided:

"It's all the fault of those nasty bankers is it? I tell you, you could execute every banker in Europe, and Greece would still default.

The only people responsible for Greece are the Greeks. They've hit the same problem all socialist cultures hit - the limit of other people's money.

Why should British or German taxpayers bail out other countries corrupt tax and pension systems? - answer : they shouldn't."

This language could easily be applied to California and the inevitable calls for bailout by other states that were not as irresponsible...

41 posted on 02/14/2010 9:56:21 AM PST by wolf24
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To: Erasmus
This is from the FairTax.org FAQ:

A VAT works very differently. It taxes every stage of production. It is much more complex and is typically hidden from the retail consumer. Second, in industrialized countries that have a VAT, it coexists with high-rate income tax, payroll, and many other taxes that, in some instances, have led to marginal tax rates as high as 70 percent. Third, all other industrialized countries, except Australia and Japan, have a much larger tax burden than the U.S., which requires higher rates and makes tax administration much more difficult. Lastly, a VAT is a lobbyist’s dream, allowing them to install their loopholes unbeknownst to the purchaser. A retail sales tax, in contrast, is a lobbyist’s nightmare, applied as it is under the bright lights of the retail counter.

In short, FairTax is vastly superior to a VAT because it is NOT a potential "hidden tax."

42 posted on 02/14/2010 10:21:37 AM PST by RayChuang88 (FairTax: America's economic cure)
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To: 10thzodiac
I actually have been to China and I wouldn't necessarily move there. But... that 10% income tax rate is looking mighty attractive. The point I was making is that money and entrepreneurs will move to low tax jurisdictions rather than keep paying high taxes. We, in the Land of the Free, are taxed globally. But in most other places, money will migrate to lower tax jurisdictions. So... I think rich Greeks will look for cheaper places to set up shop...
43 posted on 02/14/2010 1:38:55 PM PST by April Lexington (Study the constitution so you know what they are taking away!)
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To: wolf24
This language could easily be applied to California and the inevitable calls for bailout by other states that were not as irresponsible...

THAT would be unconstitutional... oh, wait... I forgot. The GOP didn't bother to challenge the Sotomayor nomination...

44 posted on 02/14/2010 1:40:24 PM PST by April Lexington (Study the constitution so you know what they are taking away!)
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To: April Lexington

It’s only a matter of time. California and the other blue states that are ready to go under are too big to fail......


45 posted on 02/14/2010 1:42:13 PM PST by wolf24
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To: wolf24
My great fear. Once that happens ALL states will spend like lunatics. Believing Uncle Sam will bail them out. At that point, our Federal system collapses and we are serfs of the population centers. We will exist to pay for their socialist lifestyles... Swing low sweet Chariot....
46 posted on 02/14/2010 1:47:48 PM PST by April Lexington (Study the constitution so you know what they are taking away!)
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To: April Lexington

It’s going to be bad news, that’s for sure.


47 posted on 02/14/2010 1:54:06 PM PST by wolf24
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To: 240B; AdmSmith; Berosus; bigheadfred; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; Ernest_at_the_Beach; ...

Thanks TigerLikesRooster.


48 posted on 02/14/2010 5:46:21 PM PST by SunkenCiv (Happy New Year! Freedom is Priceless.)
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To: TigerLikesRooster

” It has become fashionable to use free economy and anti-liberal sentiment as a cover for (usually pro-liberal) financial oligarchy’s misdeed. “

Well said.


49 posted on 02/14/2010 9:11:33 PM PST by Pelham
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