yes.
Where
TWISTED HISTORY
and
twisted
Scripture
are brazenly presented
as
theological erudition!
Posted on 03/29/2010 4:05:06 AM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt
I don't know if someone else may have a "Rapture ping list" for all the open threads, though... I don't think I've seen that.
Also, to get back to the "Rapture Caucus" you can bookmark the thread I just linked... or ... you can use the keyword "rapturecaucus" which will take you to any thread that we have going (there's only one thread now, but in the future, there may be more added and they will have the same keyword, too).
Amen! Have a wonderful “Good Friday”.
LOL - yes - good!!! :-)
THANKS.
Thank you.
Read what's actually written there, not what someone tells you is referred to there.
When I read it, I saw the same thing that many pastors and professors and teachers have said, too...
So, I don't know why you're having a problem... :-)
Dispensationalism and the Rapture/Coming 1.5 doctrines are 19th and 20th Century fiction and are not part of orthodox Christian teaching.
When Our Lord returns, He won’t be stopping halfway down. When He comes, time and space will fade away and every man will stand in person before the Just Judge.
Instead of worrying about some silly, made-up rapture, let’s concern ourselves with being ready to meet the Lord at any time. After all, this very day could be “the end times” for any of us.
Instead of worrying about some silly, made-up rapture, let’s concern ourselves with being ready to meet the Lord at any time. After all, this very day could be “the end times” for any of us.
It might be "made up" -- but it was God who made it up doncha know ... LOL ...
As for being ready at any time to meet the Lord -- I believe that's exactly what the teaching about the Rapture in the Bible does... It's also referred to as the "Doctrine of Imminence", which you can see more of at Post #268 ...
AND SO... you'll find those who adhere to the Bible's teaching of the Rapture, are the very ones who are "expecting" the Lord's return, this very day, even. :-)
BUT, I would stay away from that "comic book exegesis" if I were you... you won't get too far with that.
Wrong. It was made up by John Nelson Darby. As such, it is pure fantasy, and not fit to be labeled as anything as heresy.
But I'm not going to convince you, for you are Pope Star Traveler, infallible interpreter of the Word. Therefore, I invite you to continue to relax in the warm bath of your delusions, and have a blessed Easter.
But I'm not going to convince you, for you are Pope Star Traveler, infallible interpreter of the Word.
LOL ... actually it's not me that you have to convince, but entire congregations of Christians, entire Seminaries, large numbers of professors, large numbers of pastors and teachers and large numbers of ordinary Christians who read their Bibles. :-)
I would say that I'm the least of anyone's concerns...
AND..., you'll notice, that I've been quoting others in these posts (not very much of me in there, doncha know) ... plus in those writings, they even quote other scholars and language experts in these Biblical languages.
Heck! You've got a big job ahead of you, I would say... LOL ...
Really?
From A Brief History of the Rapture:
One of the most often cited objections to pretribulationism is that it is a new teaching in church history having only come on the scene in the 1830s. It is often argued that if the pre-tribrapture were biblical then it would have been taught earlier and throughout church history. In the last decade, individuals have found a number of pre-1830 references to a pre-tribrapture. Here is a summary of thatevidence.
The Early Church
Since imminency is considered to be a crucial feature of pretribulationism by scholars such as John Walvoord,[1] it is significant that the Apostolic Fathers, though posttribulational, at the same time just as clearly taught the pretribulational feature of imminence. Since it was common in the early church to hold contradictory positions without even an awareness of inconsistency, it would not be surprising to learn that their era supports both views. Larry Crutchfield notes, "This belief in the imminent return of Christ within the context of ongoing persecution has prompted us to broadly label the views of the earliest fathers, 'imminent intratribulationism.'"[2]
Expressions of imminency abound in the Apostolic Fathers. Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, The Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, and The Shepherd of Hermas all speak of imminency.[3] Furthermore, The Shepherd of Hermas speaks of the pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation. p>You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go,therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of thedays of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.[4]
Evidence of pretribulationism surfaces during the early medieval period in a sermon some attribute to Ephraem the Syrian, but more likely the product of one scholars call Pseudo-Ephraem, entitled Sermon on The Last Times, The Antichrist, and The End of the World.[5] The sermon was written some time between the fourth and sixth century. The rapture statement reads as follows:
Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? . . . For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come,and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.
This statement evidences a clear belief that all Christians will escape the tribulation through a gathering to the Lord and is stated early in the sermon. How else can this be understood other than as pretribulational? The later second coming of Christ to the earth with the saints is mentioned at the end of the sermon.
The Medieval Church
By the fifth century a.d., the amillennialism of Origen and Augustine had won the day in the established Church-East and West. It is probable that some form of premillennialism persisted throughout the Middle Ages, but it existed primarily underground.
It is believed that sects like the Albigenses, Lombards, and the Waldenses were attracted to premillennialism, but little is know of the details of their beliefs since the Catholics destroyed their works when they were found. But there was at least one who held to some form of pretribulationism, namely one named Brother Dolcino in 1304.
Francis Gumerlockis the individual who advocates the Brother Dolcino rapture find and said in his book: "The Dolicinites held to a pre-tribulation rapture theory similar to that in modern dispensationalism."[6] The reason Gumerlock believes that Brother Dolcino and the Apostolic Brethren taught pretribulationism is found the following statement:
"Again,[Dolcino believed and preached and taught] that within those three years Dolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist. And that the Antichrist was coming into this world within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, then he [Dolcino] and his followers would be transferred into Paradise, in which are Enoch and Elijah. And inthis way they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist. And that then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose of preaching [against] Antichrist. Then they would be killed by him or by his servants, and thus Antichrist would reign for a long time. But when the Antichrist is dead, Dolcino himself, who then would be the holy pope, and his preserved followers, will descend on the earth, and will preach the right faith of Christ to all, and will convert those who will believing then to the true faith of Jesus Christ."[7]
The Reformation Church
After over a thousand years of suppression, premillennialism began to be revived as a result of at least four factors. By the late 1500's and the early 1600's, premillennialism began to return as a factor within mainstream Protestantism. With the flowering of biblical interpretation during the late Reformation Period, premillennial interpreters began to abound throughout Protestantism and so did the development of sub-issues like the rapture.
Some began to speak of the rapture. Paul Benware notes: Peter Jurieu in his book Approaching Deliverance of the Church (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to heaven before the battle of Armageddon. He spoke of a secret Rapture prior to His coming in glory and judgment at Armageddon. Philip Doddridge's commentary on the New Testament (1738) and John Gill's commentary on the New Testament (1748)both use the term rapture and speak of it as imminent. It is clear that these men believed that this coming will precede Christ's descent to the earth and the time of judgment. The purpose was to preserve believers from the time of judgment. James Macknight (1763) and Thomas Scott(1792) taught that the righteous will be carried to heaven, where they will besecure until the time of judgment is over.[8]
FrankMarotta, a brethren researcher, believes that Thomas Collier in 1674 makes reference to a pretribulational rapture, but rejects the view,[9]thus showing his awareness that such a view was being taught in the late seventeenth century. There is the interesting case of John Asgill, who wrote a book in 1700 about the possibility of translation (i.e. rapture) without seeing death.[10]
Perhaps the clearest reference to a pretrib rapture, if not the most developed system,before Darby comes from Baptist Morgan Edwards (founder of the Ivey League school, Brown University) who saw a distinct rapture three and a half years before the start of the millennium.[11] The discovery of Edwards, who wrote about his pretrib beliefs in 1744 and later published them in 1788, is hard to dismiss.[12] He taught the following:
II. The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years.
I say, somewhat more-, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's "appearing in the air" (I Thes. iv. 17);and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many "mansions in the father's house" (John xiv. 2), and disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for "now the time is come that judgment must begin," and that will be "at the house of God" (IPet. iv. 17) . . . (p. 7; The spelling of all Edwards quotes have been modernized.)
Conclusion
I have heard from another scholar who is reading through many Latin manuscripts of previously unpublished documents that he has found a number of previously unknown pre-trib rapture statements from pre-nineteenth century Christendom. He is planning on publishing his material in a few years. What these pre-Darby rapture statements prove, if nothing else, is that indeed others did see the rapture taught in Scripture similar to the way that pretribulationists in our own day teach. Thus, the argument that no one ever taught pretribulationism until J. N. Darby in 1830 is just not historically true and it is becoming increasingly clear with each passing year. Maranatha!
So, it turns out, people living long before John Darby and long before the 17th and 18th centuries read the Scriptures and believed what God said about the event of the Rapture.
It's only fairly recently that an increasing number of men have acquired the omniscience and omnipresence that before now only God possessed and can state with straight faces and without blinking an eyelash that every bit of God's word where He tells us of the Rapture, promises Christians that we are not to be the recipients of His wrath and judgment, and tells Christians to comfort each other with His promise of deliverance from judgment, is all false, and needs to be removed from the Bible and ignored.
It's simply an amazing phenomenon, these God-like qualities that so many fallen men in this day and age have ended up with. Simply amazing.
LOL I don’t have to convince anyone LOL because I have 2,000 years of Christian tradition to back up my position LOL doncha know sports fan.
John who? I don't care what John Walvoord says. John Walvoord is not the pope. He's just some guy.
it is significant that the Apostolic Fathers, though posttribulational, at the same time just as clearly taught the pretribulational feature of imminence.
Yes, it is significant, because it specifically refutes your claim that Dispensationialism was taught by the Church fathers. You just made an own goal, my friend.
Since it was common in the early church to hold contradictory positions without even an awareness of inconsistency
LOL WUT
it would not be surprising to learn that their era supports both views. Larry Crutchfield notes, "This belief in the imminent return of Christ within the context of ongoing persecution has prompted us to broadly label the views of the earliest fathers, 'imminent intratribulationism.'"
Oh, well, who am I to disagree with Pope Larry Crutchfield the Great, infallible interpreter of God's Word?
Expressions of imminency abound in the Apostolic Fathers. Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, The Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, and The Shepherd of Hermas all speak of imminency.
Yes, because the Lord can and could return at any time. What they do not speak of is Him coming down halfway, going back up, then returning a third time. Do you even know what "imminency" means?
It is believed that sects like the Albigenses, Lombards, and the Waldenses were attracted to premillennialism, but little is know of the details of their beliefs since the Catholics destroyed their works when they were found.
Yes, because the Albigenses, Lombards, the Waldenses, and the Dolicinites were all filthy heretics -- sworn enemies of Christ.
With the flowering of biblical interpretation during the late Reformation Period
... the dawn of Homemade Theology and Do-It-Yourself Christianity.
I have heard from another scholar who is reading through many Latin manuscripts of previously unpublished documents that he has found a number of previously unknown pre-trib rapture statements from pre-nineteenth century Christendom. He is planning on publishing his material in a few years.
And I heard from another scholar that Larry Crutchfield was reading through some old Aramaic cookbook fragments and found the Lord's favorite recipe for sponge cake. THAT'S RIGHT, THE LORD LIKED SPONGE CAKE!@!1!11!!
I'm sure Pope Benedict and the gang in Rome are trembling with fear at the thought of this scholar who is reading through many Latin manuscripts of previously unpublished documents full of previously unknown pre-trib rapture statements from pre-nineteenth century Christendom.
So, it turns out, people living long before John Darby and long before the 17th and 18th centuries read the Scriptures and believed what God said about the event of the Rapture.
Malarkey. Not one of the texts cited above said anything like that.
Friend, I'm done talking to you about this. Believe whatever you want. If it makes you happy to think that Jesus Christ is going to return, stop halfway down, grab a few guys, head back up, wait seven years, then come for a third time, all I can say is follow the yellow brick road, Dorothy -- there's no place like home.
And have a blessed Easter.
And a Happy Easter to you, dear sister in Christ!
You are welcome!
LOL.
. . . .
as opposed to
JUST SOME GUY
WITH
tons of political moxy
and
power mongering?
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