Posted on 03/31/2010 11:41:30 AM PDT by george76
yeah... kinda like “ya know...” ... I actually stop myself a number of times ... :-)
You seem to be in denial about the reality of teenagers.
You wrote:
“Parents need to do even more then... if a kid has a drinking problem like that, because that’s going to ruin the rest of the kid’s life, just on the basis of that problem alone, not to say anything about rape.”
That would assume the parents knew. The girl wasn’t living at home. The parents had no idea until she was busted by the cops. And they couldn’t get her to stop. That’s why they finally cut her off financiall - and that didn’t work either.
“And thus, I could say to a girl that even though it’s a crime for some other guy(s) to do so, in a situation like described — I can “guarantee you” that you are going to get raped in those types of situations if you keep it up.”
Yes, and that would NOT STOP many teen girls from doing do it. Either way, the boys are the rapists. The girl is just someone who drank too much.
“So, the question becomes, “Does the girl want to keep up her choice in doing that, knowing that it’s a guaranteed certainty that she’ll get raped at some time, from that type of choice that she makes consistently?””
This is not about you and your hypothetical conversations with wayward girls. This is about a real rape. Period. They’re rapists. She did NOTHING that was rape. They did.
“And I would also point out that it can happen in just “one instance” of it happening.”
Again, this is not about YOU. Most teens simply won’t listen to you. Many teens drink. Should they? No. Few teens rape. Should they? OF COURSE NOT!!! That is the issue here.
“Then I would point out that the justice system “may” end up getting the legal justice that is mandated by law — but also point out that this kind of justice, no matter if carried out to the full extent — will never undo what has been done.”
Again, this is not about you. What you would point out is most likely meaningless to a teen. Quite frankly teens can pick up when an adult just like sto drone on about themselves and their own views. A teen girl would most likely tune you out in a heart beat. I sure hope you don’t blame your own kids if they’re ever raped.
“I think I said the same thing, in terms of the guys not having respect for girls, taking advantage of an opportunity, not knowing how to control their “horniness” and “buying into” the highly sexualized atmosphere of society, at large.”
Taking advantage of an opportunity? A teen girl is only an opportunity to you? Not being able to control their “horniness”? You think that’s what this is about? Man, you have no idea of what you’re talking about.
No problem.
You seem to be in denial about the reality of teenagers.
I would say it's the other way around... to me, from previous postings that I've done on teenagers and what they do and get involved in and how screwed up things are with them and their peer group in our current society -- I would say that it's many FReepers who are in denial of what teenagers do, think about, are involved in and the culture that prompts and promotes it.
Sorry, I know fully well what they've involved in and to what extent and what's going on ...
That would assume the parents knew. The girl wasn’t living at home. The parents had no idea until she was busted by the cops. And they couldn’t get her to stop. That’s why they finally cut her off financiall - and that didn’t work either.
Ummm..., well... "Hello!" -- talk about being in a screwed up situation in the first place, already being in a mess of trouble, and having already made a bunch of wrong choices ... yeah ... that's what happens...
The next thing you'll be hearing from her is that she'll be involved in prostitution, too (in the future)... and probably having a few abortions along the way and will probably die of a drug overdose sometime in the future...
Yes, and that would NOT STOP many teen girls from doing do it. Either way, the boys are the rapists. The girl is just someone who drank too much.
Uhhh... yeah! drink too much -- ya think? ...
I'd say that the dictionary definition of drinking too much for a teenage girl would have in definition #4 -- you have drunk too much when you don't know that four teenage boys are stripping you naked...
This is not about you and your hypothetical conversations with wayward girls. This is about a real rape. Period. They’re rapists. She did NOTHING that was rape. They did.
That might be the case with a lot of rapists out there with women that they attack and rape. But, knowing teenage boys (and this is what they were), I can guarantee you that they were horny (as they always are) and no one taught them how to deal with that situation (as seems to be the case in today's society...), and they were definitely taking advantage of what they saw as an "opportunity" (as that definitely is the "mindset" of many of them, thanks to our culture and the lack of proper teching and training).
There are screwed up guys around who do act out of anger, but it's not all that way with all situations like this. I can guarantee you, that if you're talking about a party with a bunch of teenagers around, having "drink-fest" -- that you're not talking about the males at that party being all angry males... :-)
I think you've bought into a perception that doesn't fit this case.
AND, as for what she "did" -- it was rather, what she did "not do" -- which was to lessen the risk of her being raped. That's what girls that could conceivably get into that type of situation need to "absolutely know without a doubt" -- and that is that they do have the ability to prevent these types of crimes from happening to them.
We all have the ability to make choices for ourselves that reduce and limit our own risks in all sorts of criminal activity, in order to not become one that is the recipient of criminal activity.
As a "simple example" of how "society" itself, also conveys that message to all of us to avoid situations in which criminal activity can happen to us -- you'll see public service messages in which people are told to reduce their chances of having stuff stolen from them and in cars, by putting things in the trunk of the car and not have "inviting things" exposed in the passenger compartment of the car.
Now... do they say, "You deserved this crime of being robbed, by not putting things away, in your car!" -- no, not at all. But, people are told what they "can do" and what "choices" they have to reduce the risks of being robbed.
And that's exactly what these teens need to know, that crime is going to happen and that they want to reduce their risks of being the recipients of a crime.
THEREFORE, one good way for a teenage girl to reduce her risks of being raped by other teenage boys at some drinking party -- is simply "Do not get so drunk so that you don't even realize that you are being stripped naked by teenage boys!"
Yeah... something like that will work... doncha know... :-)
Again, this is not about YOU. Most teens simply won’t listen to you. Many teens drink. Should they? No. Few teens rape. Should they? OF COURSE NOT!!! That is the issue here.
If it was about me, I wouldn't be saying anything about it. I already know better, myself, about choices and criminal activies and being the recipient of such.
Of course it's about such a teenage girl -- herself -- and not about me. She's the one who increases the risk of being raped, not me.
And it's that type of teenaged girl who needs to be well aware of the fact that she will be virtually guaranteeing her rape, no matter how criminal it is and no matter how much someone else is doing the crime -- she will still be getting, what I would call, "an ironclad guarantee" of being raped -- if she's at a drinking party, with a bunch of other teenage boys around and she's so drunk that she doesn't even know that they are stripping her naked.
Yes, that's what I call a "guarantee"... and if she doesn't realize that point -- then someone needs to seriously work with her until she does realize that point.
Again, this is not about you. What you would point out is most likely meaningless to a teen. Quite frankly teens can pick up when an adult just like sto drone on about themselves and their own views. A teen girl would most likely tune you out in a heart beat. I sure hope you don’t blame your own kids if they’re ever raped.
It has nothing to do with blame. It has everything to do with recognizing the "reality of the world" around you, knowing that there are criminals around, knowing that you have choices that you can make which can reduce your changes of being the recipient of their criminal activities... and being safer under one set of choices -- and -- under another set of choice, virtually guaranteeing that one will be the recipient of crimes being perpetrated on you.
I learned that a long time ago, and so I keep in mind what the choices are that I have, figure out the ways that reduce the risks of this type of criminal activity and stay as far away as possible from those criminals.
That's what teenagers need to learn, as fast as possible, as they grow up into adults. And they actually should not be allowed to even "make choices" themselves, until they acknowledge these things, exactly like that.
Taking advantage of an opportunity? A teen girl is only an opportunity to you? Not being able to control their “horniness”? You think that’s what this is about? Man, you have no idea of what you’re talking about.
It's certainly an "opportunity" to those who are wanting to do that. You haven't been around teenagers if you don't know that.
That's one thing I see some at Free Republic have a hard time doing or understanding -- and that's the "mindset" of someone else that doesn't think exactly like themselves.
And in this case, you've got a bunch of teenage boys who don't think like you... to be sure...
You're living in your own dreamworld of your own making of what "it ought to be like" -- instead of the world of "what it is like, right now..." out there for a teenage girl.
Your posts are getting longer and longer but make no more sense than your earlier ones.
You wrote:
“That might be the case with a lot of rapists out there with women that they attack and rape. But, knowing teenage boys (and this is what they were), I can guarantee you that they were horny (as they always are) and no one taught them how to deal with that situation (as seems to be the case in today’s society...), and they were definitely taking advantage of what they saw as an “opportunity” (as that definitely is the “mindset” of many of them, thanks to our culture and the lack of proper teching and training). “
They were not taking advantage of an opportunity. Taking advantage of an opportunity is pulling into an open spot at the supermarket, or buying a file cabinet that your friend decides to get rid or of all of a sudden, or taking up a job that will advance your career. This was rape. You go out of your way to avoid that word in regard to this case. It was RAPE.
You post paragraph after paragraph of nothing but excuses as to how you try to downplay that it was RAPE.
It was RAPE. Period. End of story.
It was RAPE. Period. End of story.
And to make it simple for you -- it's about how to avoid rape ... which is much preferable than trying to get someone convicted after the fact, as we can well see, from this story.
You know the saying, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure... and in this case there's no cure available. So, all you have is the prevention aspect of it.
Rulings like this are the reason we have juries and jury nullification in this country.
Law doesn’t always equal justice. :(
Rulings like this are the reason we have juries and jury nullification in this country.
http://fija.org/
I agree with the Fully Informed Jury Assocation ... and everyone should be familiar with them and know what they have to offer.
The primary function of the independent juror is not, as many think, to dispense punishment to fellow citizens accused of breaking the various laws, but rather to protect fellow citizens from tyrannical abuses of power by government.
The Constitution guarantees you the right to trial by jury. This means that government must bring its case before a jury of The People if government wants to deprive any person of life, liberty, or property. Jurors can say no to government tyranny by refusing to convict.
And that's what people should know about jurors. It's about making sure that the government does not convict innocent people, rather than what many think it's about, in that they're supposed to be about "punishing" criminals. It's mainly for protecting the innocent.
You wrote:
“And to make it simple for you — it’s about how to avoid rape ...”
No. The men are rapists not “avoid rapists”. Rapists are rapists because they rape, not because teenagers get drunk. If no one committed rape, then this girl woul dnever have been raped no matter how drunk she was.
If you leave your back door unlocked and a murderer gains easy access to your house and murders you, then the issue is not you leaving the door unlocked.
“...which is much preferable than trying to get someone convicted after the fact, as we can well see, from this story.”
They were guilty. They are rapists. They were tried for rape, not for the girl getting herself drunk.
“You know the saying, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure... and in this case there’s no cure available. So, all you have is the prevention aspect of it.”
And rapists still rape. The issue is rape. The trial was about rape. The crime is about rape. They are rapists. And you’re practically making excuses for them.
Funny thing is, if the father had killed them, he wouldn't have been punished at all.
If you leave your back door unlocked and a murderer gains easy access to your house and murders you, then the issue is not you leaving the door unlocked.
Well, I would be advising people to keep their homes secure... you see...
Now, some people may like leaving their homes not secure and not keeping lights on and not having security devices and leaving windows open and so on... but, I'm not going to be in that camp.
I'm going to be telling people to keep lights on around their place, keep doors and windows locked, be prepared to defend yourself in your home, and have a gun, have a security device/alarm.
So, you're going to advise people that the problem is, the criminal that killed the person, while I'm going to be telling people how to avoid being killed... :-)
You're operating "after the fact" -- while I prefer to operate "before the fact"...
You're going to tell someone that the criminal should be prosecuted that killed their family member -- while "I'm going to be reading about it in the paper"... you see...
And rapists still rape. The issue is rape. The trial was about rape. The crime is about rape. They are rapists. And you’re practically making excuses for them.
And to me, it's about avoiding rape, you see. You like to operate, "after the fact of rape happening" -- while I like to operate "before the fact" and "make sure rape does not happen".
NOW..., having said that, you can be telling your daughter that she's not responsible for being raped and that it is the criminal's fault -- while I'm going to be telling my daughter that she was smart for making good choices to avoid rape in the first place.
Between you and me... I'll take my way -- and you can handle your way of dealing with it with your daughter...
You wrote:
“And to me, it’s about avoiding rape, you see.”
The rape already happened.
“You like to operate, “after the fact of rape happening” — while I like to operate “before the fact” and “make sure rape does not happen”.”
I like to deal with reality. You don’t. The rape happened. It must be dealt with.
The rape already happened.
There happens to be a lot of other teenaged girls around... I don't see any good point in repeating it over and over again with them all.
I like to deal with reality. You don’t. The rape happened. It must be dealt with.
As I read it, it already was "dealt with"... and it was a sorry conclusion. And in addition to it already being dealt with -- it never undoes rape, no matter what penalties are handed out.
Sorry, I prefer to have all the other teenaged girls avoid it in the first place.
Drunk doesn’t mean the girl deserved to get raped....I do know what much....
-—<>-—<>-—<>-—<>-—<>-—<>-—
Absolutely true. It might give her a bit more of a sense of how to react, though. No matter what, from the way this reads, justice was not properly served on any of those in the story,
ROP involved?
ROP involved?
It sounds more like Jack Daniels to me...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.