FReeper Book Club: The Debate over the Constitution, Federalist #10

A Publius/Billthedrill Essay | 5 April 2010 | Publius & Billthedrill

[Publius]

Ping! The thread has been posted.

Earlier threads:

FReeper Book Club: The Debate over the Constitution
5 Oct 1787, Centinel #1
6 Oct 1787, James Wilson’s Speech at the State House
8 Oct 1787, Federal Farmer #1
9 Oct 1787, Federal Farmer #2
18 Oct 1787, Brutus #1
22 Oct 1787, John DeWitt #1
27 Oct 1787, John DeWitt #2
27 Oct 1787, Federalist #1
31 Oct 1787, Federalist #2
3 Nov 1787, Federalist #3
5 Nov 1787, John DeWitt #3
7 Nov 1787, Federalist #4
10 Nov 1787, Federalist #5
14 Nov 1787, Federalist #6
15 Nov 1787, Federalist #7
20 Nov 1787, Federalist #8
21 Nov 1787, Federalist #9

[Loud Mime]

Oh Boy!!! The GREAT Federalist! The must-read of all the essays!

Pass this along you pingers. This is a very important writing!

[The Pack Knight]

ON THE PRESERVATION OF PARTIES, PUBLIC LIBERTY DEPENDS - A Farmer (John Dickinson)

Listed as "Anti-Federalist No. 10" in the Borden Anti-Federalist collection.

[Loud Mime]

• At 62 through 65, Madison points to the fine results of people electing officeholders who are full of wisdom. What happens when people elect officeholders whose job is to divide up the money pie so as to distribute it to the voters?

Here we have the difference between intelligence and virtue; it is something that Madison failed to cover in this section.

I have long maintained that the easiest way to be stupid is to consider yourself wise, or wiser than others. The cult belief that "Bush is stupid" is the foundation of today's new socialist faction.

The wisdom of today's political leaders is to design a movement that is pure capitalism on their behalf, and socialism to the citizens:

• Pay for votes with money that is not your own - - make the citizens finance your corruption.
• Reap the personal benefits of those votes in a non-personal manner (enrich others who will pay you later)
• Make all travel "official business" and take your family

More later

[Publius]

My personal favorite is Federalist #46, but this one lays out and defines the terms for the rest of the debate. It’s Professor Madison on the first day of school.

[The Pack Knight]

At 69, Madison argues that the larger size of a republic permits people to find a better class of officeholder. Why did he fail to get this one right?

I don't take it as a given that he did not get that one right. While I am not overly impressed with the general quality of federal officeholder we have today, I am not certain that the quality would be better in a smaller republic.

While I admit that it is far from a perfect analogy, I think we can look to the relative qualities of state vs. federal officerholders throughout recent history for some amount of evidence on this issue. I find it hard to argue that state officers have been of any better quality than federal officers - in fact, I would argue that they are of substantially lesser quality. I would not particularly want the Governor and legislature of my state, North Carolina, in charge in Washington.

I think there are a lot of causes for the general decline in quality of federal officeholder over the life of our republic. I am not convinced that the size of our republic is one of them.

[mc5cents]

By a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or a minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest adverse to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community.

I think he just described the modern day democrat party.

[The Pack Knight]

At 62 through 65, Madison points to the fine results of people electing officeholders who are full of wisdom. What happens when people elect officeholders whose job is to divide up the money pie so as to distribute it to the voters?

I think Madison's response to this would be that the proposed Constitution did not permit Congress to divvy up and distribute federal monies to the voters. His view of the Taxing and Spending Clause was that the Congress's taxing and spending power was limited to spending in support of Congress's other enumerated powers and to fulfill the responsibilities those powers entailed.

Unfortunately for our republic, Hamilton's more plenipotentiary view of the Taxing and Spending Clause has prevailed.

[mc5cents]

I can’t remember the last time I saw plenipotentiary used in a sentence. Thanks.

[stevie_d_64]

“Faction” being a term in this paper that I am having a little bit of a hard time nailing down its applicability in todays world...

Even though I have an idea, it is so dynamic, that it blurs from time to time when I read through this paper...

Bottom line, I believe our system of government haas outgrown its britches, and due to the corruptions of these “factions”, I believe it is time to scale it back dramatically to reduce, or better yet, reset the system and get us back on track...

Whether the “factions” are in a minority or a majority, their influence has gotten us into this mess...

No one can completely understand it all, and why it has come to this, but I am really believing we need to reset the system, thats all there is to it...And this essay really helps me grasp that idea...

[Bigun]

At 69, Madison argues that the larger size of a republic permits people to find a better class of officeholder. Why did he fail to get this one right?

Madison is correct in that the pool is larger but that is no assurance that the quality of officeholder elected will be good. Others have said it FAR better than I so I will just quote them below.

“No people will tamely surrender their Liberties, nor can any be easily subdued, when knowledge is diffused and Virtue is preserved. On the Contrary, when People are universally ignorant, and debauched in their Manners, they will sink under their own weight without the Aid of foreign Invaders. “

Samuel Adams, letter to James Warren, November 4, 1775

I submit that today knowledge is far from diffused, virtue has become rare, and that we are seeing the exact result predicted by Mr. Adams.

Nothing is more certain than that a general profligacy and corruption of manners make a people ripe for destruction. A good form of government may hold the rotten materials together for some time, but beyond a certain pitch, even the best constitution will be ineffectual, and slavery must ensue.

John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men, 1776

Ditto the above.

Nothing so strongly impels a man to regard the interest of his constituents, as the certainty of returning to the general mass of the people, from whence he was taken, where he must participate in their burdens.

George Mason, speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 14, 1778

Possible beginning of a solution?

[The Pack Knight]

I think that’s probably a better explanation. The problem is not the growth in the quantity of the electorate, but rather a decline in the quality of the electorate.

Our elected representatives are, unfortunately, a reflection on their constituents.

[Bigun]

The problem is not the growth in the quantity of the electorate, but rather a decline in the quality of the electorate.

I heartily agree and would add that the degradation in the quality of the electorate DID NOT happen by accident!

[Bigun]

72 The federal Constitution forms a happy combination in this respect; the great and aggregate interests being referred to the national, the local and particular to the state legislatures.

It is a long, dense, methodical, occasionally divergent, and difficult case to follow, but Madison has at last arrived. A government of governments, in his view, is the best guardian against the stress of faction.

I agree with Mr Madison and live for the day when we are again blessed with such a government! Unfortunately we don't currently enjoy anything like it.

[Loud Mime]

I beleive the enabler of our incredible federal growth has been the effects of the 17th Amendment. I make a case for it in chap 10 of my book....we now have a government that stands in contradiction to the guarantee within Article IV, Section 4.

I know this is an ambitious argument. But, as Madison wrote, ambition must be made to counteract ambition.

[Publius]

I find it hard to argue that state officers have been of any better quality than federal officers...

Patrick Henry noticed the same thing in comparing federal officeholders during Washington's two terms and the officeholders of Virginia. This is why, after initially opposing the Constitution, he later embraced it enthusiastically and supported Adams and Hamilton over Jefferson's and Madison's Virginia and Kentucky Resolutions.

[Loud Mime]

Sounds like a great idea for another thread!

[Publius]

I beleive the enabler of our incredible federal growth has been the effects of the 17th Amendment.

I would locate the blame more closely to the 16th Amendment. The 17th may have redirected the focus of Congress, but the 16th gave them the money to do it.

[Publius]

After weeks of little response to these threads, suddenly people are geting interested again. Did something happen today that I missed?