Army to court martial 'birther' officer

msnbc ^ | April 13, 2010 | Mark Murray

[bushpilot1]

The way it reads to me..the court holds there is a difference between a natural born and a native born,.

The court states a naturalized citizen has all the rights of a native born citizen but does not say a naturalized citizen has all the rights as a natural born citizen.

The court did not state a native born citizen could be president; however it did state a natural born could be.

It is all very confusing.

Native born and natural born must be mutually exclusive.

[Non-Sequitur]

If a soldier was given an order to gather civilians and shoot them dead he would be in trouble for doing it.

If he did that then he would be in trouble regardless of who was president.

[JoSixChip]

"This all depends on how good his lawyer is, I’m afraid."

Such is the state of the legal system in America these days. I share your fear.

[El Gato]

Unfortunately the Military Judicial system is far different then civilian. He will lose in a split second and no mention of Obama will be allowed.

The first statement is correct, but the second is speculation at best. They must let him present his defense arguing that the orders were illegal. It's the only defense he has, since it's clear he did not follow the order to report to Ft. Campbell for pre-deployment training and then deployment.

The Military Justice system actually has more protection for defendants than the civilian one.

[Non-Sequitur]

That’s the federal pen. Military goes to the Disciplinary Barracks. But I don’t think that LCOL Lakin will do time even if convicted. He’ll be separated and lose all pension and benefits.

[jesseam]

I retired from the Army as an 06 fight surgeon in Dec of 05 with two back to back tours in Iraq with the 189th Blackhawk Bat.. from the Mt, Army National Guard in Helena Mt. My CIC was President Bush and there was no question of his legitimacy. If anyone wants to contact me privately I will provide them with my military e-mail address for further input. I would seriously question orders from a questionable CIC. For the sake of our Military, this has to be put to rest, one way or another.

[conservativegramma]

I do not believe there is a difference between native born and natural born citizens. I think that the Douglas quote you provided supports my position.

With all due respect......hogwash. David Ramsay disagreed with both you and Douglas. Who is Ramsay?

Ramsay lived from 1749 to 1815, was an American physician, patriot, and historian from South Carolina and a delegate from that state to the Continental Congress in 1782-1783 and 1785-1786. He was intimately acquainted with the Founders and with the writing of our Constitution.

In 1789 he wrote, "A Dissertation on the Manners of Acquiring the Character and Privileges of a Citizen" in which he DEFINED a natural born citizen:

“....citizenship is the inheritance of the children of those who have taken part in the late revolution; but this is confined exclusively to the children of those who were themselves citizens….....“citizenship by inheritance belongs to none but the children of those Americans, who, having survived the declaration of independence, acquired that adventitious character in their own right, and transmitted it to their offspring......“as a natural right, belongs to none but those who have been born of citizens since the 4th of July, 1776….”

Again with all due respect, a man living at the the time the constitution was written, and was involved in writing our constitution and a man who KNEW the founders carries a lot more weight than either YOU or Douglas.

[usurper]

Your talking about native born right?

It is my understanding that a child born to two US citizens abroad would meet the natural born standard under Jus Sanguins “the law of blood”. A child born within the US is a natural born citizen under Jus Solis “the law of place” irrespective of his parent’s nationality (only exception is children born to recognized foreign diplomats).

That’s what I learned in Nationality studies anyway.

[Paige]

HOW? This will end with him giving in or quietly going to prison. The military is on the side of the CIC. End of Story...

[JoSixChip]

"A child born within the US is a natural born citizen under Jus Solis “the law of place” irrespective of his parent’s nationality"

Jus Solis = birthright citizenship = native born.
Natural Born Citicenship = Born on American soil to two American Citizen parents.

That is my understanding.

[JoSixChip]

I don’t think so, I believe this will have to come to some conclusion in a public way. That is my hope anyway.

[JoSixChip]

Natural Born Citicenship = Born on American soil to two American Citizen

Natural Born Citizenship = Born on American soil to two American Citizen

[driftdiver]

Perhaps, i doubt it. They usually only pull a license for a felony or a medical mistake. I seriously doubt this goes to a felony.

[El Gato]

zerO’s swearing in by the USSC made him “lawful”,

No it did not. There is not even any requirement in the law, let alone the Constitution that the Chief Justice or any Justice "swear in" (a misnomer) a President Elect. The Constitution requires the before he enter into the execution of the officer, he must take the oath of office. But it also requires other things:

Getting the majority of electoral votes, check.
Be 35 or older, probably check, but w/o the BC who knows for certain.
Be 14 years a US resident, Check

Be a natural born citizen... might be a problem there.

What actually makes someone the lawful President is satisfying all the requirements above, and then it's up to the calender and the clock. Noon on January 20th following the election. The guy could have met all the requirements, sworn the oath in writing the day before, but he would not be President until noon on the 20th. That whole "inauguration" thing is tradition, not Constitutional requirement. Presidents have become so without a Supreme Court administering the oath, and not just in the "emergency" cases like LBJ swearing the oath on AF-1 on the tarmac at Love Field in Dallas, administered by Judge Sarah Hughes and witnessed by a handful of people, including Jacqueline Kennedy.

Even dragging out Judge Sarah was "overkill", he could have just read the oath before witnesses, or signed it.

Our prior inelible president took his oath before a New York State Supreme Court judge. Also like Obama, he repeated it, this time before a US SC justice, "out of an abundance of caution". (Of course he didn't muff it like Obama and Roberts did the first time)

Calvin Coolidge had his oath administered by his father, a notory public, when President Harding died a continent away in California. He also repeated the oath, but he *was* President from the time he took the oath the first time.

[El Gato]

Perhaps this is the army's way of sweating Obama, since the panel may request said evidence from the resident-in-chief.

Actually they can bypass him, and as a "Court of competent jurisdiction, request all the birth documents, direct from the state of Hawaii. They can also get sworn statements, or even testimony, from Hawaiian officials.

[Conscience of a Conservative]

Ramsay wrote that citizenship “belongs to none but those who have been born of citizens since the 4th of July, 1776.” That is plainly untrue. It may have been true at the time, but the 14th amendment fundamentally changed the definition of citizenship in this country.

Oh, and Justice Douglas was a Justice of the United States Supreme Court, who was writing on behalf of the court. His word carries more LEGAL weight than some obscure historian, regardless of when the historian lived.

[UCFRoadWarrior]

The military can NOT court martial him without the benefit of “discovery” or the ability to call any witness which can exonerate him—not that they won’t try, considering that Gates is a 1st class, sycophant, Dear Leader, butt boy!!!

I see you’re a vet , ever practiced law ? Ever sat on court martial jury ? This guy is toast and as close to a deserter in time of war as you can get .

---

I can tell by your post....that you have no clue about the military justice system. Just another Obama Enabler

[Persevero]

“he is screwed. . .” unless the judge is sympathetic. . .

[TexasFreeper2009]

well...

he certainly has STANDING now!

he can DEMAND in court to have the presidents BC admitted as evidence.