FReeper Book Club: The Debate over the Constitution, Brutus #4

A Publius/Billthedrill Essay | 22 April 2010 | Publius & Billthedrill

[Publius]

Ping! The thread has been posted.

Earlier threads:

FReeper Book Club: The Debate over the Constitution
5 Oct 1787, Centinel #1
6 Oct 1787, James Wilson’s Speech at the State House
8 Oct 1787, Federal Farmer #1
9 Oct 1787, Federal Farmer #2
18 Oct 1787, Brutus #1
22 Oct 1787, John DeWitt #1
27 Oct 1787, John DeWitt #2
27 Oct 1787, Federalist #1
31 Oct 1787, Federalist #2
3 Nov 1787, Federalist #3
5 Nov 1787, John DeWitt #3
7 Nov 1787, Federalist #4
10 Nov 1787, Federalist #5
14 Nov 1787, Federalist #6
15 Nov 1787, Federalist #7
20 Nov 1787, Federalist #8
21 Nov 1787, Federalist #9
23 Nov 1787, Federalist #10
24 Nov 1787, Federalist #11
27 Nov 1787, Federalist #12
27 Nov 1787, Cato #5
28 Nov 1787, Federalist #13

[Bigun]

At 5 and 6, Brutus defines the difference between a tyrannous government and a free government, a definition that has stood the test of time. Is the present United States government tyrannous or free, and why?

Tyrannical without a doubt! and for the reasons Brutus stated i.e. "That (the object) of every tyrannical government is the happiness and aggrandizement of one or a few, and to this the public felicity and every other interest must submit.

How can anyone believe this to be a FREE country when we all labor under a tax system that claims and apriory right to the fruits our labor and the enforcement agency of which can destroy anyone it chooses at any time with a mere allegation?

I note just one of many many examples of why we can no longer believe ourselves to be a FREE people.

[Billthedrill]

Good mornin’, Pub’! A BTT for the morning crowd.

[Bigun]

At 21 through 29, Brutus brings up the point that a small representation permits ease of bribery. Was the decision to limit the House of Representatives to 435 members a mistake? Would an increase in the size of the House change the dynamic of corruption for the better or worse?

I'm not sure at this point that it would make any real difference whether the house has 435, 8700 (the rough number it would be if we had stayed with the original 1 per 30,000 requirement), or 87,000. If the people continue their refusal to pay attention to what their representatives do on their behalf it would make no difference whatever.

[Bigun]

At 25, Brutus lays out the tools of how corrupt politicians can seduce the electorate or well-meaning men. But do those tools work the other way, and how?

Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall, when the wise are banished from the public councils, because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded, because they flatter the people, in order to betray them.

Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution, 1833

“The object and practice of liberty lies in the limitation of governmental power.”

General Douglas MacArthur

“Government is the great fiction, through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.”

Frederic Bastiat

“Just because you do not take an interest in politics doesn't mean politics won't take an interest in you.”

Pericles (430 B.C.)

“Necessity is the plea of every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.”,/i>

William Pitt

[Bigun]

At 32 and 33, Brutus points out that people will either follow the law because they believe in it or because they are coerced, and that coercion marks the end of free government and liberty. Apply his points to current events.

"... There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one MAKES them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. ......just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted -- and you create a nation of law-breakers -- and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Reardon, that's the game, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with."

p.411, Ayn Rand, ATLAS SHRUGGED, Signet Books, NY, 1957

[Bigun]

At 36, Brutus points out the danger of the federal government taking on responsibilities it cannot attempt and has no business attempting. Apply his point to current events.

Ill bet that two thirds to three quarters of everything the federal government currently does is outside the bounds of the Constitution.

"Liberty and security in government depend not on the limits, which the rulers may please to assign to the exercise of their own powers, but on the boundaries, within which their powers are circumscribed by the constitution. With us, the powers of magistrates, call them by whatever name you please, are the grants of the people . . . The supreme power is in them; and in them, even when a constitution is formed, and government is in operation, the supreme power still remains. A portion of their authority they, indeed, delegate; but they delegate that portion in whatever manner, in whatever measure, for whatever time, to whatever persons, and on whatever conditions they choose to fix."

U.S. Supreme Court Justice James Wilson (Lectures, 1790-1791)

[Publius6961]

36 One of the most capital errors in the system is that of extending the powers of the federal government to objects to which it is not adequate, which it cannot exercise without endangering public liberty, and which it is not necessary they should possess in order to preserve the Union and manage our national concerns; of this, however, I shall treat more fully in some future paper.

There is too much in this thread to absorb easily. However, this one quotation summarizes the entire potential problem, and perfectly describes the political morass of hopelessness being experienced by the average citizen today, apparently powerless to change it.

[Bigun]

At 42 and 43, Brutus explores congressmen as men apart from their community, perceiving themselves above that community. Apply his point to current events.

The most recent example would be the healthcare fiasco. There as many others as one would care to find.

[sig226]

I don’t see any reason to repeat the conversation about increasing the number of representatives, since we seem to be a very small minority in that regard. I don’t know if there is anything in English common law that addresses the issue of holding elections at places where it is impossible for citizens to go to vote. I suspect that there is. The Bible addresses the issue of government making a pest of itself to the detriment of the people. Joseph and Mary were put out to the point of bearing Jesus in a stable because of the Roman census. So the issue of government arrogance in forcing people to travel is an old one, and familiar to the founders of The United States of America.

Brutus missed the opportunity to give a name to gerrymandering, as you pointed out. This mechanism of legislative self-perpetuation is just as insidious as moving the location of the election, yet it is much less understood. I don’t know the history of this either, and it’s worth an investigation to understand why they didn’t just move the elections when they wanted to exclude undesirable voters.

But, he really messed up when he stated, “The object of every free government is the public good, and all lesser interests yield to it.”

No, it isn’t. The object of a free government is to do what the constitution authorizes it to do. The public good has been a subject of contentious debate since Plato, and very rarely is there a truly “right” answer. That flawed premise, that some kind of romantic and profound uber-mensch can be found to be the next philosopher-king, inevitably leads to death and destruction.

[Loud Mime]

I see you had a triple espresso at starbucks this morning! ;^)

[Loud Mime]

I'm having trouble with this:

No, it isn’t. The object of a free government is to do what the constitution authorizes it to do.

Considering the fact that the foundation of this essay was the protest of a constitution, I'm having trouble squaring this sentence.

[Bigun]

Nope!

Never learned to like coffee.

Just thought I would get in on one of these threads early for once! ;>)

[Jacquerie]

Yates was appointed to attend the Constitutional Convention. Too bad he bolted. He could have left a positive mark on history.

[Jacquerie]

“That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men.”

“We the People of the United States, in Order to . . . provide for the common defence, promote the General Welfare, . . .”

[Publius]

There is too much in this thread to absorb easily.

Which is the wonderful thing about this project. This particular thread will be here for years, so there is adequate time to absorb the words of Brutus.

[Publius]

Thank you for coming in and contributing the way you did. Everyone should be as enthusiastic as yourself.

[Bigun]

Too bad he bolted. He could have left a positive mark on history.

You DO know why he bolted don't you?

[Bigun]

You are quite welcome and I thank you for the kind words!

Frankly, I don’t understand why these particular threads are not among the most widely attended on FR.

You would think that supposed conservatives would be very much interested in the finer points of our history.