Uproar follows comment on Germany cross ban

rte ^ | April 26 2010 | rte

[Berlin_Freeper]

A call by a German politician of Turkish origin for a ban on Christian crosses in state schools has sparked uproar in her conservative party and death threats from far-right groups.

Ayguel Oezkan, the 38-year-old daughter of Turkish immigrants, is poised to become social minister in the centre-right government of the western state of Lower Saxony, and called for the ban in an interview with a German magazine.

'Christian symbols do not belong in state schools,' she told weekly Focus last week. 'Schools should be a neutral place.'

Members of her party, the Christian Democratic Union (CDU) of Chancellor Angela Merkel, have been quick to denounce the comments and some are demanding she renounce her regional minister role, which she is due to assume tomorrow.

Lower Saxony state premier Christian Wulff, an ally of Ms Merkel who won praise last week for appointing Ms Oezkan to his cabinet, brushed aside her comments as 'personal opinion' and reaffirmed that his government welcomed crosses in schools.

Stefan Mueller, a member of parliament who represents Angela Merkel's CDU and its Bavarian Christian Social Union (CSU) allies on integration issues, used stronger language, calling the remarks 'absurd and shocking'.

'Politicians who want to ban crosses in schools should think about whether they belong in a Christian party,' Mr Mueller was quoted as saying in German media.

Ms Oezkan, a lawyer who was born in Hamburg to parents who migrated to Germany in the 1960s, said in an interview with German daily Bild that she did not consider herself a devout Muslim but that her family celebrated Islamic holidays.

Ms Oezkan, who would be the first state minister of Turkish origin in Germany, told the paper she had received death threats.

She is reportedly under 24-hour protection from police.

[stainlessbanner]

banned: homeschooling and crosses

[equalitybeforethelaw]

She belongs to a party called the Christian Democrats and she is against Crosses in school. Can anyone help me here, what am I missing?

[Frantzie]

Boot her out of the CDU. Let her run as SPD or Green Party or the Islamic Party.

The CDU needs to be more like the CSU.

[ConservativeMind]

What’s funny, is to my understanding, actual Christian belief is tragically lacking throughout Germany.

They may claim Christ, but it seems no more serious than American Jews claim God.

Do you see a nation of Seinfelds keeping to what God says? Neither do I.

[moovova]

"social minister"?

That can't be a good thing...

[metmom]

A call by a German politician of Turkish origin for a ban on Christian crosses in state schools has sparked uproar in her conservative party and death threats from far-right groups.

This is what will happen when muslims take power.

[metmom]

Ms Oezkan, who would be the first state minister of Turkish origin in Germany, told the paper she had received death threats. She is reportedly under 24-hour protection from police.

Too bad that others under death threats from muslims can't get the same kid glove treatment.

[PGalt]

She belongs to a party called the Christian Democrats and she is against Crosses in school. Can anyone help me here, what am I missing?

Nothing. You just need to re-read this line...

Ms Oezkan, a lawyer who was born in Hamburg to parents who migrated to Germany in the 1960s, said in an interview with German daily Bild that she did not consider herself a devout Muslim but that her family celebrated Islamic holidays.

[a fool in paradise]

So the US “separation of church and state” applies to Europe too? Why doesn’t it apply to the Islamic supremacist nations that live under and Islamic theocracy that discriminate against non-muslims in their legal system?

[Munson]

If christian stuff gets banned islamic stuff should be banned too.

[antiRepublicrat]

"social minister"? That can't be a good thing...

That would be dangerous. We don't have an equivalent here, but she would be in a position to bend the government's position more and more to succumb to the minority Muslim population.

[jiminycricket000]

"She belongs to a party called the Christian Democrats and she is against Crosses in school. Can anyone help me here, what am I missing?"

Can you say, "infiltrate and destroy"?

In military terms such people are called 'spies'. In government terms they are called 'subversives'. In Christian terms they are called "'wolves in sheep's clothing'. But you know that Christianity is in trouble when the wolves come in wolves clothing, (Islam). Satan is bold these days, eh?

[Notwithstanding]

Having lived there for 7 years I can confirm that the churches are largely lovely cultural showpieces.

As devout perpetual tourists while there (all of our travels involved an elment of pilgrimage visitin our Christian cultural patrimony) we often observed what you wrote.

Happily there are pockets of hope, but it was so sad to walk through “museums” to the faith, rather then houses of worship.

[AnalogReigns]

banned: homeschooling...

Homeschooling has ALWAYS been banned in modern Germany. (As it was in America until about 30 years ago...).

The Germans are too afraid of radicals (that would be neo-Nazis and Islamists) bringing their kids up in isolation without integrating them into the larger German society...

Given their history, understandable, in my opinion.

[fieldmarshaldj]

Homeschooling was outlawed by the Nazis. They kept the policies.

[353FMG]

She is a DEVOUT Muslim, can’t you understand?

[Realman30]

She need to come to the United States if she’s turned out of office. Hussein Obama can find a position for her in his administration.

[AnalogReigns]

Homeschooling was outlawed by the Nazis.

Cite me your evidence for that. German bureaucracy, and European governments generally, were very controlling, LONG BEFORE the Nazis.

It's very easy to blame anything we don't like in Germany on the Nazis...and tends to end the discussion, eh?

Truancy laws....found in the USA from the 19th Century onwards, and in Europe before the USA, corresponding with mandatory public education, are what generally have been used as "anti-homeschooling" regulations.

I'm not saying German law about homeschooling is good--but understandably GIVEN THEIR HISTORY they want to make sure little radical groups are not mis-educating their children.

The biggest German fear now, is that the Moslem immigrants will homeschool their kids to be Islamic terrorists...

[fieldmarshaldj]

Homeschooling is illegal in Germany since Hitler banned it in 1938.

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1330

One article on parents who tried to do so. You’ll find extensive articles on the subject. Germany is particularly notorious on this draconian ban.

[DesScorp]

“Can anyone help me here, what am I missing?”

By far, the most effective method of destroying Christianity in Europe has been to destroy it from within. Is anyone really surprised that Islam is doing that? Either Europe wakes up, or the Crescent finally does with political correctness what it could never do with invading armies. And the Europeans have brought it all on themselves.

[Arthur Wildfire! March]

Thank you for the ping!

[wolf78]

Homeschooling was outlawed by the Nazis. They kept the policies.

That is nonsense. Homeschooling was illegal a hundred years before the Nazis, with the beginnings of mandatory schooling tracing back to the 18th century (Generallandschulreglement).

...doch höchstens vom fünften Jahre ihres Alters in die Schule schicken, auch damit ordentlich bis ins dreizehnte und vierzehnte Jahr kontinuieren und sie so lange zur Schule halten sollen, bis sie nicht nur das Nötigste vom Christentum gefasst haben und fertig lesen und schreiben, ... (they shall be sent to school from the age of 5 until 13 or 14, where they shall learn the basics of Christendom and how to read and write).

The only difference was that the German kingdoms and duchies all had their own laws, whereas the Nazis came up with a national law. But ironically, even that isn't the case anymore, as the responsibility for education went back to the German states in 1948.

So no, the Nazi connection is flat out wrong.

[wolf78]

Forgot: Alexandra Colen (Brussels Journal) is wrong in saying that "Homeschooling is illegal in Germany since Hitler banned it in 1938."

She should have said: "Homeschooling was illegal in centralized Germany under Hitler from 1938-1945, after it was illegal in Prussia, Bavaria etc. long before that, and is now again illegal in Bavaria, Brandenburg, Hesse etc."

But why bother with facts?

[wolf78]

So the US “separation of church and state” applies to Europe too?

Not in Germany and that is what the discussion is about. Religious education in school is standard in Germany, there are even some denominational state schools. Oezkan - like the left party ect. wants to change that, but that doesn't go down well with her own party.

[AnalogReigns]

Forgot: Alexandra Colen (Brussels Journal) is wrong in saying that "Homeschooling is illegal in Germany since Hitler banned it in 1938."

She should have said: "Homeschooling was illegal in centralized Germany under Hitler from 1938-1945, after it was illegal in Prussia, Bavaria etc. long before that, and is now again illegal in Bavaria, Brandenburg, Hesse etc."

But if a law was in force under the Nazis it HAS to be a dread evil plot against poor homeschoolers, right?

Of course exactly the same laws, that is simple truancy laws, were in force in America--as well as every other Western country, from the 1800s onward...

Fact of the matter, in homogeneous cultures, where specialization is a sign of civilization... having specialized teachers--more qualified than parents to teach, has been embraced since ancient times. I'm sure Jesus and the Apostles sat under rabbis other than their parents for formal instruction as children. Such has been the case for most educated people since.

The reason homeschooling is popular today, is due to the (wholly understandable) mistrust of public, government institutions, and the break-up of the cultural consensus on religious and moral values.

When my parents were kids (in the 1930s), everyone agreed (at least publicly) that sex outside of marriage, homosexuality, and adultery were wrong....and that prayer in schools, disciplined children, and Christianity, were good. Academic standards and literacy were extremely high....

Today that is not the case...and who wants to subject ones children to a crazy moral sewer, of 2nd or 3rd rate education--which many public schools are? I don't blame parents AT ALL for wanting to educate their kids at home...instead of in the public schools.

In Germany however:

1)The vast majority of people are secular and non-religious, therefore they don't care that their schools are as well (even though, their schools actually do give religious instruction...in ways the US hasn't seen since the '50s)

2) Their educational standards and literacy, compared to the rest of the world, still rate as excellent--compared to the miserable standards in the USA.

3) In spite of mass immigration--the culture is still much more homogeneous and uniform, than the USA: i.e. ethnic Germans have shared cultural values--and these would be Western post-war values (in other words, no tolerance for neo-Nazi views...in school, anyway).

4) Conservative European values do NOT include the inherent mistrust of government institutions (such as public schools), which is part and parcel to conservative American values. This is why even the most conservative Germans are much more socialistic and statist...than even moderate Americans are comfortable with.

For these reasons, homeschooling is very unpopular in Germany--even among conservative evangelical types (which there are a few....something under 4%, but, they do exist).

The views are not unlike the views of many elderly Americans today--they don't really understand why parents would homeschool their kids... (since they assume good schools are available). Of course, the assumption, in the USA at least, that good schools are available...is not correct.

[AnalogReigns]

Thanks for your proof—that mandatory education laws in Germany (used against homeschooling) go back 100+ years before the Nazis.

Personally, I’m grateful for such truancy laws. A lot more people got an education through the years than otherwise would of, because it is considered a publicly enforceable responsibility of the parents.

It is unfortunate however, when responsible parents—who are indeed educating their children—are forced to give their children up to what amounts to state efforts of indoctrination.

From what I have read, this is going on now in Germany. There is no dictator so harsh as a petty bureaucrat either....

[fieldmarshaldj]

I don’t agree. It was a key centerpiece of education in a fascist state. The left does not want parents to have the right to educate their own children, they want it to be the exclusive province of the state. I find it appalling it has not been dismantled in Germany.

[wolf78]

I don’t agree.

With all due respect, that's irrelevant. Alledging that the homeschooling ban was a Nazi idea is just plain wrong, the facts are clear and they speak otherwise. Of course you have a point, in that Nazis wanted total domination of the education system. If you had argued that the Hitler youth was specifically designed to compete with church groups, I would have agreed. If you had argued that the Nazis integrated the school system with the Hitler youth and other party activities, I would have agreed. If you had pointed out that the Napolas, elite Nazi schools, were there to indoctrinate the future leaders of the Volksgenossen, that would also have been correct.

However, claiming that Nazis invented mandatory schooling is just plain nonsense. So called "Schulpflicht" (i.e. mandatory schooling) has been the law of the land im most German states for centuries. Here's a 293 year old royal declaration threatening punishment for keeping children away from school (in this case, it's Prussia):



The problem most Americans have with German history is that they do not understand the concept of the German empire (or Reich), which for centuries, millenia even, was a loose federation of German duchies and kingdoms, which at times included modern states like Austria and Belgium. Most Americans do not understand the intricate codependencies and changing responsibilities of the states themselves and the imperial throne. So they think that because the Nazis did something for the first time on a national, centralized level, it's something new when in fact it has been around for ages, just in a more complicated way.

It's the same problem when some annoying Germans criticize "the evil US death penalty", because they have no clue how the American federal system actually works.

In short: You have every right to find it appalling. But Brussels Journal - and with them most US homeschool activists - has simply got the facts wrong.

[wolf78]

It is unfortunate however, when responsible parents—who are indeed educating their children—are forced to give their children up to what amounts to state efforts of indoctrination.

For these reasons, homeschooling is very unpopular in Germany--even among conservative evangelical types (which there are a few....something under 4%, but, they do exist).

One also has to point out that mandatory schooling in Germany does not mean mandatory state schooling. Religious private schools are not only legal, they are one of the first constitutional rights (Article 7 Basic Law).

The reason why homeschooling is unpopular even among German evangelicals is because they simply establish their own "Zwergschulen" ("dwarf schools"), because all you need to do is provide a school setting and not provide an education significantly worse than the state school system. That's not that hard.

Source: Basic Law (in lieu of a constitution) for the Federal Republic of Germany

[fieldmarshaldj]

I’m trying to recall if it was you or someone else that I had this discussion with before. I do find it singularly curious why there is a downplaying or dismissal of Nazi Germany policies on education - and with all due respect, sir, I DO find it quite relevant. I will reiterate again that it is typical of left-wing fascist governments to control the education of children. Whether some sorts of piecemeal bans were in place PRIOR to the Nazi regime (where it applied in some states and not others) is, again, not relevent. The fact that it was implemented to apply to the entirety of the country is. The issue here, again, is about the fascistic/leftist control of the education of children above and beyond parental rights. It was Nazi Germany that served as the premier example of that trampling of rights. That’s what I’m talking about.

[wolf78]

I will reiterate again that it is typical of left-wing fascist governments to control the education of children.

I did not dispute that. In fact, I even elaborated on it. That still doesn't mean mandatory schooling which had been around for two and a half centuries was a Nazi invention.

Whether some sorts of piecemeal bans were in place PRIOR to the Nazi regime (where it applied in some states and not others) is, again, not relevent. The fact that it was implemented to apply to the entirety of the country is.

In that case, your argument is even more wrong. Because today there is NO NATIONAL LAW like during the Nazi time. The German Constitution specifically states that education is the responsibility of the states and with the exception of some research programs at universities etc. completely eliminates the influence of the federal government. There isn't even a national school framework, just an intergovernmental work group of the Laender governments. There is no entirety of the country when it comes to education, there are in fact 16 completely different systems. And if a German state would change these laws, the federal government could do jack sh*t about it.

So you'd have to blame the German states, or more specifically those German states which handle compulsory education more restrictively than others, which do make excemptions.

That’s what I’m talking about.

I get your point. I even agree with you that homeschooling shouldn't be illegal. But you should not make factually wrong claims. Germany has piecemeal bans exactly because Germany is a piecemeal nation and has been for millenia. 12 years of centralized government vs. 1200 years of the exact opposite makes the Nazi era more of a historical aberration than a historical precedent. Just like VERY few Germans could lecture Americans about federalism in the US, VERY few Americans can lecture on German federalism.