Stop immigration? You'd kill nation (THE "POPULATION BOMB" IS DEFUSED)

Chicago Sun-Times ^ | May 2, 2010 | NEIL STEINBERG Sun-Times Columnist

[Chi-townChief]

Luke DeMarte, of Chicago, writes: In your column on Monday you said the following: "My view -- the infusion of people from south of the border strengthens our country, saving us from the demographic death spiral dooming places like Italy and Japan -- is the standard liberal claptrap, so I won't belabor you with it."

What do you mean by the "demographic death spiral?" I understand that Italy and Japan are pretty insular places with little diversity, but I'm not sure how that equates to a death spiral.

Excellent question. Sometimes, a social problem so freaks us out that fear of it lingers long after the problem itself goes away.

Exhibit No. 1: overpopulation, at least in Western countries. Having spent two centuries scaring ourselves with Thomas Malthus' gloomy and mistaken predictions of mass starvation after rapid population growth outstrips food production (he didn't realize how adept we'd get at farming) and spending the 1970s subjected to dystopian visions of a world overstuffed with people -- dig up a copy of John Hersey's novel My Petition for More Space -- we have never quite gotten our heads around the idea that many industrialized nations are rapidly losing people.

L'Italia ha bisogno dei bambini First Italy -- a lovely nation, I should point out, rich in history, beauty and culture; I would be there tomorrow if I could, with my sportcoat draped over my shoulders, sipping an espresso at an outdoor cafe in Naples . . .

But I digress. In 1850, the Italian fertility rate -- the number of births per woman -- was five. Now, it's 1.3. Which means that the population constantly declines -- it's expected to fall 20 percent in coming decades.

In Japan -- also an intriguing country, of ancient traditions and aesthetic pleasures; I would be there right now if I could, steaming in an onsen in Kyoto . . .

Sorry. In Japan, the situation is even worse. With the lowest birthrate in the world, the population of Japan -- 127 million now -- will fall to 95 million in 2050. The total number of children in Japan has dropped every year for 28 years in a row.

In case you feel envy -- thinking "easier to find daycare!" or "shorter waits at popular restaurants!" -- allow me to reprint something from the scholarly journal Population & Societies.

"The projections forecast the total extinction of the Japanese population by around 3000 if lowest-low fertility continues indefinitely. But even limiting the analysis to the next 50 years, this projected decline will lead to profound changes in the Japanese age structure and a marked decrease in the working-age population."

What kind of changes? Increased poverty and stagnation -- in Japan, there are towns that have emptied out. If you think our recession is bad here, Japan has been taking on water for 20 years. Remember when they were going to own us all? That was in the 1980s. Nobody worries about that anymore.

Shrinking population isn't a problem in the United States because we have immigrants coming across the border. While the nativists who so grip our country focus on poverty and crime -- though never, it seems, long enough to grasp that we've always had those woes, or that crime has been steadily declining -- the truth is that young workers with growing families fuel the economy.

"Innovation and new ideas get associated with a youthful labor force," said William Frey, a demographics expert at the Brookings Institution, who said Europe risks becoming "a geriatric ghetto" with a shrinking, aging population.

If I sometimes treat the anti-immigration crowd as if they're not only insane but anti-patriotic to boot, it's because they seem that way, and not just to me. (London's The Economist headlined its story this week on the doings in Arizona with a succinct: "Hysterical Nativism.")

The Minutemen militia sorts are attacking the very thing that will save us. If I hated America and wanted to destroy her, I'd try to close the borders and deport our immigrants, of course wrapping myself in the flag all the while. The fact that proponents of this folly are ignorant of both global realities and the stark consequences should they tragically prevail is a defense but not much of one. They aren't guilty of treason, just fear and idiocy.

Japan's problems are self-inflicted; it has one of the strictest immigration policies in the world. Your great-grandfather could have come from Korea 100 years ago, and your passport in Japan would still identify you a resident Korean.

It boggles my mind that anybody would want that in America, with their dire talk about stopping "anchor babies." I try to point out the cautionary example of Japan to those advocating changes in our laws; ears covered, they flee, perhaps gritting their teeth and repeating "Must . . . not . . . think . . ."

Japan is not facing demographic oblivion without a fight.

"The Japanese government is planning to introduce a less restrictive immigration policy," Population & Societies notes. "But as massive recourse to immigration appears out of the question, its demographic consequences will be limited."

A reminder that we are not spared this decline through any planning or policy or intrinsic worth, not because we can't match Japan xenophobe for xenophobe. Credit a geographical accident -- we are not an island. The border is right there, young Hispanics, looking for work, come across it. Sometimes, I think America is the luckiest nation on earth -- blessed with natural resources, protected by two enormous oceans, and spared the consequences of our periodic embrace of lunacy by sheer chance. God must truly love the United States, to smile upon us in this fashion. You may argue if you like.

mailto:nsteinberg@suntimes.com

[Chi-townChief]

Interestingly, this fool Steinberg doesn't realize that no one is calling to "stop immigration." Mexico should probably open their border to all North Americans and if they can't run a decent country, we'll show them how.

[GeronL]

The left and MSM want to lump legals and legals in the same boat like they tried to do with embryonic and adult stem cells. “You are against stem cell research!”

Its part of the leftist strategy.

[KoRn]

The problem is our liberal culture has conditioned young White people to be totally against the concept of having children.

I’m younger, and I’ve seen it prevalent among other young people I’ve known. How ever, I believe my wife and I made up for their lack of pro-creation. lol

[max americana]

Yes, there are more than 10 million Americans unemployed and we want more of these uneducated, murderers who couldn’t even take care of their country in mexico which is now owned by the drug cartels and now they want to wreck this one..sounds like libtard “logic” to me.

[eclecticEel]

Yes, they do like to dumb down every conversation.

The author is also ignoring that even if we had no immigration at all, we wouldn’t be facing the type of demographic death spiral of places like Russia or Japan. For the moment at least, we still have a healthy birthrate; the leftists are just doing everything in their power to change that.

[Mr. Mojo]

this fool Steinberg doesn't realize that no one is calling to "stop immigration."

He knows that, but libs will never stop their tactic of omitting the "I-word" ("illegal") from the discourse.

[FrankR]

Sometimes a tree grows too fast, and you have to cut the tops out of the trees so the roots can catch up, lest it falls over.

The same here...we - IMHO - need to put a freeze on immigration and give the country time to "catch up" with a lot of things, like budgets, entitlements, and infrastructure.

Here we have an aging population of Baby Boomers that we're worrying about sustaining, because we're feeding and housing every illegal immigrant and their anchor babies that decide they have a "right" to come here.

These boomers worked all their lives and contributed to this country in sweat and money - and many with their lives for the wars fought to keep us free - and here we have an illegal alien in the White House wanting to euthanize people for the cime of getting old.

At the same time, he wants to trade our earned fortunes and sovereignty by handing it all to illegals, terrorists, and other malcontents of the "moocher" class for votes.

All this because the squirrly little bastard went into the "self help" section of some used book store and found a cobweb covered book called "Rules for Radicals" - probably traded in by Pentagon bomber, Bill Ayers - and thought the step-by-step instructions therein might lift him from his childhood confusion of who he was, and what he was.

We really need that "freeze" to give us time to sort out what we have, and organize a more efficient system (like getting the liberals out of any decision making offices), and take care of the problem. Then, and only then, we reopen immigration on a more restrictive and organized plane.

[highlander_UW]

Interestingly, this fool Steinberg doesn't realize that no one is calling to "stop immigration."

No kidding...in fact, on another board I was discussing immigration with a marxist liberal and I was telling him that I thought the legal immigration quotas were too low, and they should annually adjust indexed to the employment percentage in the US. I also pointed out the racist history of the current quota by nationality was (installed mostly be democrats, of course). The percentage allowed from various nations is indexed to the number of people from that nation already in the US. Of course this means we mostly get immigrants from one nation...and I was calling for more diversity. It's always fun to use liberals language against them.

[South40]

Stop immigration? You'd kill nation

BS. The opposite is true.

If the US was a lifeboat the left would still be pulling people from the world in despite it being near capsizing and they're not going to be happy until it does.

[rockinqsranch]

“He knows that, but libs will never stop their tactic of omitting the “I-word” (”illegal”) from the discourse.”

NOT JUST THE “I-word”, but most anything that requires omission to achieve their goal, their point. Lying by omission is SOP for the Leftists.

[Dr. Sivana]

Interestingly, this fool Steinberg doesn't realize that no one is calling to "stop immigration."

Most aren't, but Peter Brimelow certainly did.

[Jim 0216]

The issue is and always had been ILLEGAL immigration. This country has and always will be a safe haven for LEGAL immigration. America loves her bona fide immigrants - they're usually the ones to understand America better than a lot of those who have been born here.

Illegal immigration is another story and must be dealt with decisively.

The demagogues mostly from the DemocRATic party love to amp up the confusion and deliberately stir up a world of confusion and strife if they can. That way the real issue - ILLEGAL immigration - gets lost in the shuffle.

Let's hope there are enough of us to stop the charade and deal decisively with shutting down borders to illegals. Those that are already here:

- In jail or legal trouble - deport immediately.

- The rest, give them a grace period time to come forward voluntarily & ID themselves, screen and deport uncaught criminals (other than they're illegal entry).

- Those that are left that have come forward are given the chance to what they would have to do to gain legal entry – apply and go though all the steps necessary. Those who refuse, deport immediately.

- After the grace period (a month or so), round thos who didn't come forward and kick them out. Hasta la vista baby, maybe, don’t forget to write, and next time try it the legal way.

[mewzilla]

A 10 minute vid on the subject that's well worth the time....

Immigration Gumballs

[Nosterrex]

For decades the MSM and liberals have been preaching a “culture of death” ideology in which abortion, birth control, and homosexuality have become sacraments. Now they are concerned about low birth rates!?! Emmanuel Kant believed that it was immoral to see people as a means rather than an ends. When someone makes the argument that we need immigrants in order to provide for our government promised entitlements, we are seeing them as a means. This is immoral. I doubt that that editor of Chi-Town ever studied ethics, only liberal ideology. Immorality leads to more immorality.

[raybbr]

I would like one of these liberal morons (or any open borders types here on FR) to explain to me how allowing 70 to 80 percent of our immigration, legal or illegal, to come from one demographic (hispanic) engenders diversity.

These people shout diversity at every social norm to try to dilute it yet when it comes to immigrants....

[Pusterfuss]

The same here...we - IMHO - need to put a freeze on immigration and give the country time to "catch up" with a lot of things, like budgets, entitlements, and infrastructure.

I would emphatically add assimilation to your list. Language and culture: Speak english, display the US flag. Celebrate July 4, not May 5.

[vladimir998]

What would help Japan is NOT more immigration but more JAPANESE children. The same goes for Italy. The same goes for us. If we didn’t cherish baby-killing and contraceptives so damn much we would be a stronger society all around.

[Touch Not the Cat]

.
no one is calling to "stop immigration."

I am. Thee needs to be a twenty year moratorium while we deport the illegals who are here now.

[wintertime]

If I sometimes treat the anti-immigration crowd as if they're not only insane but anti-patriotic to boot,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I do not know of a single conservative who is calling for an end to immigration. NOT EVEN ONE! Nearly all are concerned about uncontrolled **ILLEGAL** immigration! ( Is a “duh” necessary?)

Geeze! There are plenty of really smart and highly educated people with long lists of university degrees who are desperate to come to the U.S. And...They speak English, too! ( Better than many inner city high schoolers!) Let's let them come to the United States.

And...Americans are concerned about the immigrants who come to the U.S. and then immediately get on the welfare rolls. If there are immigrants who can come here and won't be on welfare, let's give them first priority.

[Vigilanteman]

Correct. A healthy debate on immigration is exactly what this country needs as long as the debate in on quality and numbers of legal immigrants.

Such a debate is impossible as long as illegal immigration is rampant and we have no control of our borders.

The liberal tactic of trying to combine the two is like equating house breakers with house guests. The former are, by definition, criminal and it is NOT a coincidence that a disproportionate number are also criminals in matters other than illegal entry.

[chris_bdba]

We want immigrants what we don’t want is low or no skilled illegal immigrants that take from the country they arrive in. Most of those who cross illegally into this country would never be allowed to immigrate even if we allowed more legal immigration because of thier lack of education and skills.

[chris_bdba]

Couldn’t you just hear the screams if countires who are experincing this outlawed abortion and the pill to solve it?

[ASOC]

You may have missed on this one.

The (of all people) Sierra Club, who as an organization was virtually against immigrants, posted studies that the US, minus both legal and illegal input (45 million) the US would have birth rate like that of Japan.

From http://www.susps.org/

Quote
"Since 1996, leaders of the Sierra Club have refused to admit that immigration driven, rapid U.S. population growth causes massive environmental problems. And they have refused to acknowledge the need to reduce U.S. immigration levels in order to stabilize the U.S. population and protect our natural resources. Their refusal to do what common sense says is best for the environment was a mystery for nearly a decade.

Then, on Oct. 27, 2004, the Los Angeles Times revealed the answer: David Gelbaum, a super rich donor, had demanded this position from the Sierra Club in return for huge donations! Kenneth Weiss, author of the LA Times article that broke the story, quoted what David Gelbaum said to Sierra Club Executive Director Carl Pope:

"I did tell Carl Pope in 1994 or 1995 that if they ever came out anti-immigration, they would never get a dollar from me."

Who says money doesn't talk?

And from http://community.seattletimes.nwsource.com/archive/?date=20040218&slug=sierra18m

"While most environmental groups typically have not tackled U.S. population growth, the stalwart Sierra Club addressed it as early as 1965.

The club persuaded Stanford biologist Paul Ehrlich to write "The Population Bomb" (1968), which defined population as a national environmental issue.

Later, the group championed a national population policy, family planning programs and the availability of abortion. It also looked at population in developing countries, again advocating reproductive health and family planning services.

Limiting U.S. immigration was part of the club's "population-stabilization" platform.

"The U.S., by many measures, is the most overpopulated nation on the planet because of our consumption level, because of the number of resources we use and the way we contribute to the deterioration of the ecosystem," said Judy Kunofsky, a Berkeley mathematician who chaired the club's population committee in the 1980s.

"The Sierra Club believed that for everyone's sake around the world, the U.S. both needed to curb its consumption and stop increasing its numbers."

Notice the SC relationship with Paul Ehrlich.

More here http://www.commonsenseonmassimmigration.us/articles/art_hull.html

and here

http://www.overpopulation.org/older.html

THe links are for your review, I DO NOT promote any of thier views - one way or the other.
I will say we must control the invasion on our borders or face the prospect of failure as a Nation-State.

[wolfcreek]

The (whoever) will never be able to discern the difference between Illegal and legal immigration. (or they just won’t because it’s the current talking point or can’t because they are too stupid)

I would guess the number of people who want ZERO immigrations is fairly small.

[Dagnabitt]

We must end Islamic immigration. Illegal and Legal.

[Psycho_Bunny]

One big strawman article. Steinberg is a buffoon.

[freespirited]

"Innovation and new ideas get associated with a youthful labor force," said William Frey, a demographics expert at the Brookings Institution

Youthful immigrants also get associated with stuff like MS13. But what do you expect from a Brookings dude.

[jmaroneps37]

Stop the

illegal

immigration.

[Titus-Maximus]

The point is this is disingenuous journalism. People are fed up with this blatant disregard of the law, states are going under, social costs are astronomical, crime is rampant and Americans are expected to educate and provide health care for millions of illegals running across the border into America. I’m sorry if I don’t see it that way.

This journalist evades these important facts and writes as if America owes these people some type of livelihood, when their own nation cannot provide it, even with significant oil and gas revenues. America is declared racist if we build a fence on the border, and we are declared racist if we arrest illegals who have no right to be here and we are declared racist if we do anything to reduce this onslaught on our nation - and then the Obama Administration completely ducks the issue right when leadership is called for - so then how do we protect out nation? Anyone from the Dem side? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

Oh Amnesty! Sorry, we cannot afford it.

Mexico, not being able to care for its people, encourages their illegal entry into the US and offers instruction in the process. I think it is time for America to file suit against Mexico, and charge them an indemnity for every illegal alien we find in our country - under the assumption that they were instructed to come here by their government.
Their oil revenues should be taken to compensate Americans to pay for the aliens social costs. That will change their tune.

How about we treat Mexicans like they treat aliens on their southern border - funny how they shut up when you bring that up, because they horrendously abuse them.

How about taxing their remittances home, a nice 20%? That would help things in this country.

[GeronL]

I totally agree with you.

and I bet remittances are taxed in the destination country

[rmlew]

What he fails to note is that historical immigration reduces native fertility rates. We end up displacing ourselves. Higher taxes and increase cost of housing leads to delayed marriage and fewer children.

I see no reason why we would not be at replacement rates in the US without immigration. And there is nothing patriotic about replacing Americans with those who do not see this as their “patria”, fatherland.

[Hardastarboard]

Excellent post

[BenKenobi]

Right problem, wrong answer.

He’s correct that the only thing keeping western Europe afloat is immigration. He’s incorrect if he regards immigration as the solution to the overall structural issues in Western Europe, and to a lesser extent, in Canada. It’s not. Immigrants on average are older than the average citizen. While it is true that immigration slows the demographic change, it is a bandaid. You simply need far more immigrants than even Canada admits, and we let in the highest number.

[BenKenobi]

“The problem is our liberal culture has conditioned young White people to be totally against the concept of having children.

I’m younger, and I’ve seen it prevalent among other young people I’ve known. How ever, I believe my wife and I made up for their lack of pro-creation.”

Yes, it’s a hard mindset to overcome. Most of the girls my age are just not interested in a family. :(

[BenKenobi]

They won’t have a choice. Families that reject the pill will replace those who support it.

[ruination]

These are the numbers DHS has on the countries of origin of legal immigrants from 2004 to 2006.

Mexico easily tops the list and is followed by ten more third-world countries.



The lone European country on the list comes in at 19. Maybe this is just how that Steinberg person likes it.

[Reeses]

Thomas Malthus' gloomy and mistaken predictions of mass starvation after rapid population growth outstrips food production (he didn't realize how adept we'd get at farming)

Leftists don't realize how adept we'll get with robotics and automation. We don't need human lettuce pickers and all the schools, jails, welfare, and free health care needed for them.

With the pill and abortion, what's happening is a Democrat voter death spiral. Conservative families are growing. Now just the people that like children are having them, and that's a good thing. The birthrate will climb as the Democrat voters die off. They want to open the floodgates on immigration as a way of attaining political power.

[NoLibZone]

We no longer need to reduce the nations Carbon footprint.

[IbJensen]

- IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR.

- IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.

- IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.

- IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.

- IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.

- IF YOU CROSS THE VENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.

- IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.

- IF YOU CROSS THE U.S. BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET..............................

1-A JOB
2 - A DRIVERS LICENSE,
3 - SOCIAL SECURITY CARD,
4 - WELFARE,
5 - FOOD STAMPS,
6 - CREDIT CARDS,
7 - SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE,
8 - FREE EDUCATION,
9 - FREE HEALTH CARE,
10 - A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON ,
11 - BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE,
12 - AND THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRY’S FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DON’T GET ENOUGH RESPECT.

[dalereed]

“Steinberg doesn’t realize that no one is calling to “stop immigration.”

I’ll call for a total ban on anyone from Norway or Germany ever being allowed into this country!!

I’m half and half and those slimy socialist bastards should be banned forever!!!!

[gogogodzilla]

I would even go so far as to say that illegal immigration isn't the hot button that we say it is. It's more that the illegal immigrants are simply not assimilating into American culture, but instead... demand we change to suit them.

Back in the early 1900’s, we had a similar situation with eastern European immigrants, many who jumped ship as soon as the boat came into the harbor. What made it less of a problem then was that those illegal immigrants didn't mooch off the government tit, learned English as soon as humanly possible, and saw our nation as that ‘shining city on a hill’ - something to be proud of and defend with all their power.

And if our current illegals did the same, I seriously doubt that this issue would be as big as it is. Illegal immigration is still illegal, but there would be less of a pressing need to do something *NOW* about it.

[truthguy]

Most aren't, but Peter Brimelow certainly did.

Peter Brimelow is a hero of mind and I always rush to defend him. I'm 100% in Brimelow's corner. I think the guys a genius.

The subject of population growth and how it affects our civilization and culture is beyond the scope of this post. Suffice it to say that it doesn't get enough attention. I think it is at the core of many of our problems and many simply don't wish to address it.

In 1967, the population of the United States was 200 Million. By 2007, we passed 300 million. Now mind you that this growth was post baby boom. So the numbers are staggering. We added more people in 40 years than the largest country in Europe. Most of this increase has come from immigrants and the offspring of immigrants. This needs to be talked about and I don't know why we don't' get more posts on this on Free Republic.

We have a lot of FR Posters who are of the Ben Wattenburg, Julian Simon school that there is NO LIMIT to the population of the United States. The more the merrier. 4 billion, 5 Billion, hey no problem with these guys. Most sane people would recoil at the thought of the US population going over 1 Billion, but that's the course we are on. Hopefully this will become a topic in the future.

[ruination]

Agreed on Brimelow. If America is a “nation of immigrants” it’s also a nation of immigration timeouts, like the almost complete pause we had from 1924 to 1965.

[andy58-in-nh]

A failure to distinguish between legal and illegal status in discussing immigration policy is evidence of intellectual dishonesty. To act as though it does not matter ignores both law and common sense.

[Attention Surplus Disorder]

1: I am sure that a lot of US citizens are not having children because the HELLHOLE that unchecked illegal immigration is turning large parts of this nation into. The chaos is turning it into something that many do want to procreate into. I don’t have children, so I can’t swear to this, but I “feeeeeeel” it is true, so I get my once a year liberal piece of nonsense. The amazing and pervasive lack of law enforcement and the apparent inability and unwillingness to do anything about it is something that makes people very nervous.

2: Does anyone really think that if somehow, someway, we got to the point where the alarm went out “OMG, we’re so badly underpopulated, we’re all gonna die!!” that we couldn’t say “QUICK!!! We need 10 million Mexicans within 90 days or the world is gonna end! Señoras y caballeros! Line up on El Border and we’ll let you in gratis that they wouldn’t come in?

[Attention Surplus Disorder]

1: I am sure that a lot of US citizens are not having children because the HELLHOLE that unchecked illegal immigration is turning large parts of this nation into. The chaos is turning it into something that many do want to procreate into. I don’t have children, so I can’t swear to this, but I “feeeeeeel” it is true, so I get my once a year liberal piece of nonsense. The amazing and pervasive lack of law enforcement and the apparent inability and unwillingness to do anything about it is something that makes people very nervous.

2: Does anyone really think that if somehow, someway, we got to the point where the alarm went out “OMG, we’re so badly underpopulated, we’re all gonna die!!” that we couldn’t say “QUICK!!! We need 10 million Mexicans within 90 days or the world is gonna end! Señoras y caballeros! Line up on El Border and we’ll let you in gratis that they wouldn’t come in?

[mo]

Its all about the bodies..for the Wall St scams....which morph into claims on the treasury

[Jim 0216]

Yes, I root for those that have to jump ship and be rescued from a slave state to come here. And yes, those people are more patriotic than a lot of, if not most of, our home-grown Americans. The Eastern Europeans are looking for freedom FROM government, not government hand-outs, because they know that the flip side of what government does FOR you is what it does TO you.

The illegals from south of the border are a different story and are largely the product of corrupt leftist politics in America that seems to encourage their illegality and desire for government handouts. We should send those corrupt officials back with the illegals.

[truth_seeker]

Makin babies is Patriotic !!

So now get to it, patriots. You know what you are supposed to do, right ?

[gogogodzilla]

Yep. And that’s the root of the problem - the welfare culture that most of the modern illegals have. Their demands for America to change and meet their ideals... as opposed to the traditional view that immigrants need to change and meet OUR ideals.