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Baby Gap: Germany's Birth Rate Hits Historic Low
Time ^ | May 23, 2010 | Tristana Moore

Posted on 05/23/2010 4:27:15 PM PDT by C19fan

Germany is shrinking — and fast. New figures released on May 17 show the birth rate in Europe's biggest economy has plummeted to a historic low, dropping to a level not seen since 1946. As demographers warn of the consequences of not making enough babies to replace and support an ageing population, the latest figures have triggered a bout of national soul-searching and cast a harsh light on Chancellor Angela Merkel's family policies.

(Excerpt) Read more at time.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Germany
KEYWORDS: birth; birthrate; deathofthewest; germany; population
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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I wonder if you take away the Muzzie population in Germany, mainly Turks, how much lower the fertility rate is. In the past when you had a vacuum like this some foreign people would take over.
1 posted on 05/23/2010 4:27:16 PM PDT by C19fan
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To: C19fan
Unprecedented

Unexpected

W's fault.

2 posted on 05/23/2010 4:32:14 PM PDT by Paladin2
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To: C19fan

I’m more interested in knowing why Germans do not want families anymore?

I would firstly speculate that it is because both adults have to work to support themselves adequately due to a high taxation rate. It takes time and effort to bear and rear children correctly, so families with one child predominate. Combine that with the propaganda about the environment and there is additional cultural pressure to have one-child families.

Socialism and environmentalism look like the culprits to me. The same situation holds true for other nations where socialism and the enviromental craze have taken root.


3 posted on 05/23/2010 4:33:37 PM PDT by SatinDoll (NO Foreign Nationals as our President!!)
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To: C19fan

Pinging Mark Steyn.


4 posted on 05/23/2010 4:34:04 PM PDT by marron
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To: C19fan
Whatever you do, don’t be flippant and blame socialism for it.
5 posted on 05/23/2010 4:35:15 PM PDT by EGPWS (Trust in God, question everyone else)
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To: Paladin2
Unprecedented

Unexpected

W's fault.

Although with precedent it's expected and with no help from Dubya', you have pegged it with true savvy Paladin2.

: )

6 posted on 05/23/2010 4:41:36 PM PDT by EGPWS (Trust in God, question everyone else)
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To: C19fan
This is where some government intervention might be called for, as maybe cutting tax rates by- saỵ 25% for a first child and 50% for subsequent children with actual subsidies for the 5th child.
7 posted on 05/23/2010 4:41:48 PM PDT by arthurus ("If you don't believe in shooting abortionists, don't shoot an abortionist." -Ann C.)
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To: C19fan
As demographers warn of the consequences of not making enough babies to replace and support an ageing population

Helloooooo!!! "Supporting an aging population" isn't a reason people should be having babies. Human society isn't supposed to be a pyramid scheme. The aged population should have worked hard and made large contributions to their society's physical and intellectual capital, sufficient to support themselves in their old age, and preferably with surplus to enhance the lives of the younger generations as well.

The first full generation of Germans to spend their lives as wards of a socialist welfare state are now hitting what they imagine should be retirement-at-leisure age. It takes some serious audacity for them (and others purporting to speak on their behalf) to complain that the cash-strapped, tax-crushed current generation of young adults is failing to do their patriotic duty of making enough babies to support the elderly. The current elderly generation is the one that allowed the pyramid scheme of socialism to take hold in the first place, and they sure aren't offering to give up their mountain of government-guaranteed old age benefits so that the younger generation can afford to have more children.

8 posted on 05/23/2010 4:42:12 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: arthurus

Social engineering via tax codes is ALWAYS bad and ALWAYS antithetical to freedom. Just slash the tax rates, period, and let people make their own choices about what to do with their own money. Many of them will have more children, but others won’t. That’s called freedom.

And the budget cuts to compensate for the initial drop in tax revenue from slashed rates need to hit the generation that’s responsible for this mess, namely those now hitting retirement age, who presided over a massive expansion of socialist welfare programs because they wanted hand-outs for themselves.


9 posted on 05/23/2010 4:45:48 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: SatinDoll

It’s just too much work to make a baby nowadays.


10 posted on 05/23/2010 4:45:48 PM PDT by donhunt (I used to have a US senator who lived in a compound. He's dead now.)
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To: SatinDoll

Populations with high birth rates are populations for whom children are profitable to the parents. Some or all of them are earning their food by age 10 or 12 and adding income to the family shortly thereafter. They are also the social security for the parents. Social Security is probably the largest single contributor to the birth dearth. Parents don’t have to rely on their children to support them in their old age. Consequently also, respect foe old folks declines with social security because the kids don’t have to take care of Mom and Pop and thus don’t live with them.


11 posted on 05/23/2010 4:46:28 PM PDT by arthurus ("If you don't believe in shooting abortionists, don't shoot an abortionist." -Ann C.)
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To: C19fan

Bingo.


12 posted on 05/23/2010 4:48:51 PM PDT by Kozak (USA 7/4/1776 to 1/20/2009 Reqiescat in Pace)
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To: GovernmentShrinker

“Helloooooo!!! “Supporting an aging population” isn’t a reason people should be having babies. Human society isn’t supposed to be a pyramid scheme. The aged population should have worked hard and made large contributions to their society’s physical and intellectual capital, sufficient to support themselves in their old age, and preferably with surplus to enhance the lives of the younger generations as well.”

That is a modern/western perspective, but families were stronger when the younger did help care for the older.


13 posted on 05/23/2010 4:49:41 PM PDT by DonaldC (A nation cannot stand in the absence of religious principle.)
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To: SatinDoll; All
I’m more interested in knowing why Germans do not want families anymore?

PSST, don't spread it around but socialism makes it way too expensive for anyone to take the initiative to risk financial "change" and add burden to maintaining financial survival as a family.

14 posted on 05/23/2010 4:49:42 PM PDT by EGPWS (Trust in God, question everyone else)
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To: SatinDoll
I read that there is a 50% energy tax in Germany. People have to unplugg their appliances at night to avoid going broke. I sure that the intended consequence of all these 'green' taxes is that people are too financially crunched to have children.

Europe is gone...

15 posted on 05/23/2010 4:56:31 PM PDT by Lobsterback
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To: C19fan
Yeah, the Muslims are taking over Europe, just on that one thing alone ... babies ... and the U.S. will be taken over by Muslims on that same basis, in a generation or two ...

See the following from another post of mine...


That evil and oppressive governmental idealogy of Islam and the way of implementing it by Sharia law is already making inroads right here in this country — the good ole USA. We’re about to see a “takeover” of the U.S. by the evil and oppressive idealogy of the government of Islam (that is aiming for world-wide conquest and has stated that the U.S. is *on its list* to take over...)

And for those people who need some additional facts about what the evil and oppressive governmental idealogy of Islam is doing, look at some of the following.

There’s no question about it... the enemy is *Islam* itself and the evil and oppressive and false idealogy that it perpetrates. Some say the problem is “fascism” (instead of the basic oppressive governmental idealogy of Islam, itself). But, that is to engage in “political correctness” and nothing more... and sidetracks people from the *true enemy* in this war.

In one generation we’ll see, right here in the United States that “Islam” is the enemy and not “fascism”...

Muslim Demographics...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

and also, this...

Islam: What the West Needs to Know - FULL LENGTH ENGLISH VERSION
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-871902797772997781

and then, looking at this...

“The Third Jihad” (video - abridged version of film)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2271522/posts

This is the allowance of “false gods” to take over this nation because of the ignorance of the people of the land in regards to the true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...

And so, we see that we’re going to have the “false god of Islam” ruling over the USA and running the USA in just one generation from now.

16 posted on 05/23/2010 4:59:53 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: SatinDoll
You were saying ...

Socialism and environmentalism look like the culprits to me. The same situation holds true for other nations where socialism and the enviromental craze have taken root.

What I've read about it in the past, is that the more advanced and successful the country (you know like third world countries and/or Western nations) the fewer kids they have. So, as people themselves become more succesful, the birth rate goes down. There might be some exceptions for some religious preferences (a couple of groups I can think of).

But, Muslims... they just take over by sheer numbers and they're due to take over this country in a generation or two.

17 posted on 05/23/2010 5:03:23 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: GovernmentShrinker

“Social engineering via tax codes is ALWAYS bad and ALWAYS antithetical to freedom. Just slash the tax rates, period, and let people make their own choices about what to do with their own money. Many of them will have more children, but others won’t. That’s called freedom.”

The social engineering was done decades ago with the invention of the Pill, legalization of abortion, and the mainstreaming of women into college and into the workplace. Put another way - children get in the way.

So the question is whether we let this social engineering run its course and DESTROY Western Society, which it’s well on its way to doing - or does the West take REAL steps to address the problem? I doubt you want that outcome - but it WILL happen, probably in a couple of decades in Europe, and then later here.

As to tax cuts, fine - but they won’t do crap for this problem - it simply isn’t the issue.

Also note that cultures that did not and have not participated in this social engineering experiment decades ago (i.e., Islamic countries) do not have the population issues that we are dealing with.


18 posted on 05/23/2010 5:12:45 PM PDT by BobL
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To: SatinDoll
I’m more interested in knowing why Germans do not want families anymore?

They've bought into the environmentalist line that there are too many people. German women are some of the most selfish creatures walking the face of the earth. Boy do I ever know this. They can't be bothered with having children when there are more important things like travel and leisure.

There are also politics. Germans have been beaten to a pulp by the West since the end of WW2 and have a bad feeling about themselves. So they don't produce. It's a very sad situation. Germany is committing suicide. They care more about having a nice car or nice vacation than continuing their civilization. Tragic that we are losing on of the world's great civilizations. Blame Liberalism. Northern Italy is just as bad.
19 posted on 05/23/2010 5:12:57 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough!)
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To: C19fan

In a classic case of confusing cause and effect, I give you the following text from a hotlink in the article: “See why the recssion is causing women to have fewer kids.”

There are other doozies in the article, like blaming the quality of government child care. As if civil society has always had government child care, but the quality of it has just now declined to the point where it is impacting the birth rate.


20 posted on 05/23/2010 5:13:15 PM PDT by Doohickey (I try to take my days one at a time, but occasionally several days attack me at once.)
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To: DonaldC
That is a modern/western perspective, but families were stronger when the younger did help care for the older.

FAMILIES, not the government. And normally this was done by younger family members who were currently enjoying economic, concrete, and intellectual capital that had been amassed by the now-elderly family members. The house was owned free and clear (long since paid for, if not actually built by hand) by the now-elderly, the many acres of farmland and pasture had already been cleared and made productive by the now-elderly, the wealth of knowledge and experience re how to maximize production had been passed on by the now-elderly to the younger generation, giving the younger generation sufficient resources to spend time and money/goods caring for the elderly. The elderly had pre-paid for their own old-age care.

21 posted on 05/23/2010 5:18:30 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: C19fan

Any German Freepers out there? You need to get busy! ;-)


22 posted on 05/23/2010 5:22:31 PM PDT by rbosque (11 year Freeper! Combat Economist.)
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To: BobL
Also note that cultures that did not and have not participated in this social engineering experiment decades ago (i.e., Islamic countries) do not have the population issues that we are dealing with.

Note that many of us do not regard the current culture of Islamic societies as something we'd like our own societies to resemble. A teeming population is a huge cultural and political burden, and tends to promote ideologies which appeal to frustrated young adults who see no realistic hope of a bright future. The ethnically native populations of Western societies may have low birth rates, but precious few of the children we do have are susceptible to suggestions that blowing themselves up for Allah (or for anything else) would be their best course of action.

The days of endless frontiers of habitable, arable land, providing a bright future for as many fledgling adults as the previous generation could churn out, are long gone and not coming back. And anytime the rate of population growth outpaces the rate of economic growth, big trouble lies ahead.

23 posted on 05/23/2010 5:26:24 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: donhunt

LOLOLOL!!

I once saw the following on a T-shirt in California:

Sex - give until you’re tired.


24 posted on 05/23/2010 5:27:25 PM PDT by SatinDoll (NO Foreign Nationals as our President!!)
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To: truthguy
America Alone: The End of the World As We Know It

Read it and weep.
25 posted on 05/23/2010 5:28:59 PM PDT by Kozak (USA 7/4/1776 to 1/20/2009 Reqiescat in Pace)
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To: Kozak
Read it and weep.

Read it over a year ago and gave copies to many of my friends. I'm a big Mark Steyn fan.

I'm out of tears after Nov 2008.
26 posted on 05/23/2010 5:31:31 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough!)
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To: GovernmentShrinker

“Note that many of us do not regard the current culture of Islamic societies as something we’d like our own societies to resemble. “

I used them as an example, and you FULL WELL know that.

Anyway feel free to push your “Death to West” agenda (by depopulating us while our enemies do not), but I don’t have to respond to it.


27 posted on 05/23/2010 5:32:29 PM PDT by BobL
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To: Star Traveler
“and the U.S. will be taken over by Muslims “

And illegal alien Mexicans and Central Americans.

The 12 million illegals in the US is a lie and a joke. There's more like 20 to 30 million. Not to mention all the other millions that were already here.

Between the treasonous, leftist, Dim Dhim America haters, the so called “main stream media”, Hollywood and the universities, America and freedom is disappearing right under our feet.

28 posted on 05/23/2010 5:38:37 PM PDT by garyhope (It's World War IV, right here, right now, courtesy of Islam.)
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To: garyhope

Illegal aliens may be on the minds of everyone now, but it’s the Muslims who will control this country and not the Mexicans or South Americans ... see the Demographics video ...


29 posted on 05/23/2010 5:41:45 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: BobL

So kindly show me an example of a society that currently has rapid population growth, and is currently politically and economically stable and not a hotbed of terrorism or communist insurgency.


30 posted on 05/23/2010 5:43:53 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: GovernmentShrinker

They are only worried about not enough kids to pay off banksters debts. Much like the Kaiser used to worry about having enough males to kill off on battle fields for what ever elitist notions he had. Humans as resource digits. Integers. Statistics.


31 posted on 05/23/2010 5:44:08 PM PDT by Leisler
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To: GovernmentShrinker

“So kindly show me an example of a society that currently has rapid population growth, and is currently politically and economically stable and not a hotbed of terrorism or communist insurgency.”

Name a country that has given in to the SOCIAL ENGINEERING of feminism that IS NOT going through a population crash - and cheating by allowing unfriendly immigrants doesn’t count.


32 posted on 05/23/2010 5:48:16 PM PDT by BobL
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To: GovernmentShrinker

I don’t know...maybe it’s just because I have kids and I don’t want to them have to live in a country and a world overrun with people that are basically barbarian - which HAS TO HAPPEN unless DRASTIC steps are taken (either make more babies here, or delete lots of theirs).

And I am willing to do what is necessary to reverse the past social engineering...even if it looks like sacrificing conservative values.


33 posted on 05/23/2010 5:53:00 PM PDT by BobL
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To: SatinDoll; C19fan; truthguy
The decline in birth rate is not just in Germany but is now in most countries including the U.S. To get a better understanding of the issues that we are now starting to face and the main reasons why Germans and others are not having babies I would advice viewing the DVD “Demographic Winter” and the follow up “Demographic Bomb”. Both are very interesting and point out how the economy is going to be in trouble for a while because of the declining birth rates. Unfortunately it appears that most people do not see the advantages of having children...Scripture calls children a blessing while most people today call children a financial burden...what a shame.
34 posted on 05/23/2010 5:53:53 PM PDT by WorldviewDad (following God instead of culture)
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To: SatinDoll

Add to this a profound pessimism resulting from the two wars, and the traditional passivity of the Germans. Voluntarism, which is in the American DNA, is alien to the Germans, who leave politics to the professionals.


35 posted on 05/23/2010 5:54:32 PM PDT by RobbyS (Pray with the suffering souls.)
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To: Star Traveler
Illegal aliens may be on the minds of everyone now, but it’s the Muslims who will control this country and not the Mexicans or South Americans ... see the Demographics video ...

Agreed. Muslims are the real threat here. Not Mexicans.

36 posted on 05/23/2010 5:56:13 PM PDT by MinorityRepublican
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To: C19fan

More rubbish about how this are not enough “social services.”

German culture now has ingested socialism, materialism, PC guilt, white angst and multiculteralism. The message is - why should there be a next generation?


37 posted on 05/23/2010 5:57:13 PM PDT by PGR88
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To: truthguy

“I’m out of tears after Nov 2008.”

You and me both.


38 posted on 05/23/2010 6:01:52 PM PDT by garyhope (It's World War IV, right here, right now, courtesy of Islam.)
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To: C19fan

When will they realize that the Muslims are taking over and that they must have children to offset that?


39 posted on 05/23/2010 6:02:27 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: BobL

Well, after you deduct the illegal and/or unfriendly immigrants, the U.S. population is stable, not “crashing”. And a stable population works just fine until the pyramid schemes of socialism are introduced, including the pyramid scheme of promising all sorts of old-age benefits on the assumption that a greatly increased population of younger people will fund it when payout time arrives.

New Zealand is an example of a country with stable population — birth rate is at perfect replacement level of 2.1 per woman (obviously representing high rates of conraceptive use), and immigration rates are relatively low, and significantly offset by emigration rates (mainly to Australia and the UK). It is economically, politically, and socially stable.


40 posted on 05/23/2010 6:07:34 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: EGPWS

I’m just practicing to be a journalist or Zer0 explainer (media flak).


41 posted on 05/23/2010 6:10:14 PM PDT by Paladin2
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To: BobL

Getting into a breeding contest with Arabs and Central/South Americans and Africans is hardly the way to ensure a civilized society for your children to live in after they’re grown up.

Clamping down on immigration from underdeveloped and/or unstable countries to developed and stable countries, should be a high priority. Those populations’ growth rates would naturally slow, if we weren’t providing a release valve for the pressures of their excessively high birth rates, just as the population growth rates of Europeans in North America slowed drastically when our ancestors hit the end of the frontier. Other countries’ borders need to serve as the “end of the frontier” for populations that are growing (and behaving) like feral cats.


42 posted on 05/23/2010 6:14:32 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: Leisler; BobL

The populations of the Soviet Union and its satellite nations did a very effective job of bringing down their anti-freedom governments by starving said governments of new warm bodies to staff the planned growth of government-controlled industry and the military. Making lots of babies in a pyramid-scheme society simply feeds and perpetuates the pyramid scheme. In the West, the socialist governments are trying to fight back by making up the difference with uncontrolled immigration. The native populations need to fight back hard on that front TOO, not compete with it by responding to government pleas for more babies. People are limiting their reproduction because they can’t afford a decent life for children when they’re being so heavily taxed to fund the ever-growing pyramid scheme. We can resume higher rates of reproduction later, after the pyramid scheme has been starved to death, and we can bring children into societies where they can be assured of living with some reasonable semblance of freedom.


43 posted on 05/23/2010 6:25:05 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: WorldviewDad
I know a young couple who don't have children. They are ideal for what I'd consider good parents. When I kinda asked why (while discretely trying to be polite) or when they might have children, they replied that they were saving for a house. They wanted a house in a good neighborhood. But even with the decline in real estate prices, homes in good neighborhoods are still sky high. So I asked why they didn't just get a starter home and work their way up. They reply was that most starters were in dangerous places where you put your life at risk. They wanted a home in a neighborhood that was safe enough for children. Starter homes in good neighborhoods are very rare.

So it occurred to me that the home my father purchased after coming home from WW2 was quite small and not fancy at all with only 1 bath and 2 Bedrooms. But it WAS safe. Remember it was the early 1950's and the demographics were very different. So even though the homes were very modest, they were in safe neighborhoods and typically with decent schools. This isn't true today. To get into a safe neighborhood with good schools it takes a ton of money and most young couples hoping to have children simply don't have that type of money. This is a big change in society and accounts for the low birth rates of many groups particularly young white couples.
44 posted on 05/23/2010 6:27:10 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough!)
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To: GovernmentShrinker; BobL
You were saying ...

Getting into a breeding contest with Arabs and Central/South Americans and Africans is hardly the way to ensure a civilized society for your children to live in after they’re grown up.

It's worse than that ... if you look at that Demographics video, you'll see that it's not just keeping the Muslims out (if you could do that, and I don't think you can) -- it's also, if they weren't even here -- because of those demographics, our society is going into an "implosion" that we can't recover from, as a society ...

45 posted on 05/23/2010 6:28:46 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
Yes, I agree with much that has been said here. The chief reason for our problems is the 1965 Immigration Reform Act. It was sponsored by none other than Ted Kennedy early in his Senate career. Who would have guessed. This Act was the worst thing that ever happened to America. It was worse than the 2 World Wars, Korea, Vietnam, the various assassinations, the great depression, and even the (gasp-) civil war. That's right, even worse than the civil war. Nothing has changed America more than this horrific piece of legislation. It completely destroyed the country and it went largely unnoticed upon its passage. It changed us from a melting pot to a boiling pot. I'll be surprised if we escape the consequences of this bill- of course passed by Democrats and signed by a Democratic president, LBJ.
46 posted on 05/23/2010 6:44:47 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough!)
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To: Star Traveler

“it’s also, if they weren’t even here — because of those demographics, our society is going into an “implosion” that we can’t recover from, as a society ...”

...and that doesn’t seem to bother some of us.


47 posted on 05/23/2010 6:55:39 PM PDT by BobL
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To: BobL

Yeah, we’ll just hand-off the implosion to our kids and grandkids ...


48 posted on 05/23/2010 6:56:36 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: truthguy

Each couple has to determine this for themselves...my experience has been that when people have talked to me about the things they need to save up for in order to have children...most of the things are not that important, and then I end up scratching my head when they go right into the discussion about the two new cars that they just bought, or the new cell phone plan, or the $100 month cable bill, etc.

Just for back ground, several people do talk to me about children since they are not used to seeing a family with seven children...so I even have strangers approach me at times. For the most part they start out thinking that it is great to see a large family and then go right into how expensive it is to have a child and why they could never have more then one or two. When I tell them that we are a single income family and most of the items they talk about being expensive don’t need to be (buy used if you cannot pay cash for new...works for cars, lawnmowers, clothes, appliances, cribs, highchair, etc.) they seem shocked that I would think like that.

I guess my outlook might be different then most...my wife and I were told by our doctor as a young married couple that we would not be able to have children, and after further testing had that confirmed by other doctors. We decided to leave this in God’s hands and He blessed us with seven children over the next seventeen years.

I have a great life because of the children and I just wish that more people would be able to experience this. I can truely agree with Scripture that they are a blessing...


49 posted on 05/23/2010 7:02:50 PM PDT by WorldviewDad (following God instead of culture)
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To: WorldviewDad
Yes people can save on a lot of things. And many have too much stuff. But one thing you don't neglect is safety. You don't want your kids to be brought up in a neighborhood with crack houses or where there is violence and such. That's not the same as sacrificing a new BMW for a used Chevy. Most people will make the automotive sacrifice but putting your life into danger and bringing your child up in a horrible environment is different. I'll bet you are from a rural community and not in a major city or even in the suburbs of a major city. It's different in the battle zone.
50 posted on 05/23/2010 7:09:33 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough!)
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