Posted on 06/18/2010 8:43:09 PM PDT by shield
After years of having their military technology blatantly stolen by China, Russia is no longer selling them much of anything. In addition, the state controlled Russian media is now featuring lots of pundits deploring the low performance of the Chinese arms industry, and how poorly they have copied Russian military technology. A recent flurry of reports disparaged Chinese attempts to copy the Russian Su-33 (an aircraft carrier version of the Su-27). This all rings hollow when you consider how the Chinese have already caught up with a lot of Russian military manufacturers, and are driving them out of business in some areas.
For example, using stolen Russian technology, China is driving Russia out of the low-end weapons business. In turn, Russian attempts to maintain their status as a major developer of military technology are fumbling, largely because of the sales stolen by China. Increasingly, China is undercutting Russian sales efforts with similar weapons containing lots of stolen Russian technology. The Chinese won't invest as much in developing new technology, and the Russians can no longer afford to. So the second tier weapons markets slide further into mediocrity.
Through most (1960s-80s) of the Cold War, Russia (Soviet Union) had a well financed arms industry. Many innovative weapons were developed, but all this effort was hobbled by the fact that the Russian economy as a whole was very inefficient, and Russian industry could not build high tech as well, or reliably, as Western firms. Thus Russian high-tech gear always came in second to Western counterparts.
When the Cold War ended, so did the lavish spending on the Russian defense industries. Many, actually over half, of these weapons manufacturers went bankrupt, or converted to non-military production. Those that survived, did so by exporting weapons. Throughout the 1990s, the Russian armed forces could not afford to buy much new stuff. China came to the rescue in the 1990s, and over the next decade, bought nearly $20 billion in Russian arms. But China also began to blatantly copy lots of the Russian tech, and build their own. Thus, not surprisingly, for the last five years, Chinese orders have shrunk, while production of copies of Russian tech have increased. In some cases, Russia has simply refused to sell China high tech stuff, to avoid having it copied.
In the 1990s, Chinese manufacturing capabilities were so far behind that Russia believed their lead would never disappear. But with Russian military manufacturing largely stalled for the last two decades, and the Chinese economy booming (over 10 percent growth per year), the Russians are horrified to realize that the Chinese are catching up, and fast. For example, China believes it will be free from dependence on Russia for military jet engines within the next five (or so) years. Currently, China imports two Russian engines, the $3.5 million AL-31 (for the Su-27/30, J-11, J-10) and the $2.5 million RD-93 (a version of the MiG-29s RD-33) for the JF-17 (a F-16 type aircraft developed in cooperation with Pakistan.) But in the meantime, Chinese engineers have managed to master the manufacturing techniques needed to make a Chinese copy of the Russian AL31F engine. This Chinese copy, the WS10A, is part of a program that has also developed the WS13, to replace the RD-93.
China has long copied foreign technology, not always successfully. But in the last decade, China has poured much money into developing a jet engine manufacturing capability. The Chinese encountered many of the same problems the Russians did when developing their own engine design and construction skills. But China has several advantages. First, they knew of the mistakes the Russians had made, and so were able to avoid many of them. Then there was the fact that China had better access to Western manufacturing technology (both legally and illegally). Finally, China was, unlike the Soviets, able to develop their engine manufacturing capabilities in a market economy. This was much more efficient than the command economy that the Soviets were saddled with for seven decades.
It is true, as the Russians like to point out, that the Chinese have taken a long time to develop some of their latest high-tech weapons (like the J-10 and JF-17 jet fighters, jet engines and many missile and electronic systems). But that's because the Chinese regarded these projects as learning exercises, and have not produced the resulting aircraft in large numbers. The Chinese use what they have learned for the next project, and they have made a lot of progress in two decades. China has already demonstrated an ability to build (and copy) world class technology. They now have the largest automobile industry on the planet. China can build things, and build them well. They learn from their mistakes, and they are surpassing their long time Russian mentors. The Russians know this is true, but they don't want to admit it.
What the Chinese didn’t steal from us, they stole from the Russians.
Two massive powers, both with the will to wage wars of attrition on a gargantuan scale. They’ve always had that common ‘professional’ respect, but the world’s a much smaller place now.
The next world leader(empire). They have a plan.
China has long copied foreign technology, not always successfully. But in the last decade, China has poured much money into developing a jet engine manufacturing capability. The Chinese encountered many of the same problems the Russians did when developing their own engine design and construction skills. But China has several advantages. First, they knew of the mistakes the Russians had made, and so were able to avoid many of them. Then there was the fact that China had better access to Western manufacturing technology (both legally and illegally). Finally, China was, unlike the Soviets, able to develop their engine manufacturing capabilities in a market economy. This was much more efficient than the command economy that the Soviets were saddled with for seven decades.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2536020/posts
Congressman, former Presidential candidate, and rock-ribbed conservative veteran Duncan Hunter last week, on China:
“And so China is stepping into the superpower shoes that the Soviet Union left, clearly. And our “optimists”, including those who have lots of commercial transactions with China, involve themselves in pollyannish discussions about how the Chinese are going to be a benign trading partner and will ultimately be a cooperative member of the Western economic community, and will not be a belligerent with respect to security issues. It’s rubbish.
“The problem is neither one of those “hopes” - and that’s all they are is “hopes” - are being realized. The Red Chinese are hitting us with a sledge hammer in terms of taking our manufacturing base away from us. They are not interested in realistically valuating their currency. They are maintaining a major advantage in trade as a result of that. And they are maintaining their value added tax which they use to subsidize their own exports to us and to penalize our exports to them.
“And with the new found cash which they are receiving from the United States, they’re purchasing sophisticated military equipment from the Russians and they are making lots of making lots of military equipment themselves.
“Red China is fast becoming a military superpower and every now and then we get jolted back to reality as we did when that American aircraft was forced down and they pried open the cockpit with bayonets. These folks are tough. They’re brutal. They’re communists...
The Israelis’ have stolen from us and sold it to China.
The Israeli government did that? Do you have a link or two, I’d like to read about it. Is that the thanks we get for all the financial support we provide?
The Lavi project allowed China to advance its aircraft tech, with that help.
The Chinese will eat anything. Have you seen their markets?
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/6-52571.aspx
They had almost sold them three Phalcon AWACS systems as well - these are significant game-changers. The US had to clamp down hard on Israel to stop the sale at the last minute.
The Israelis stole three Phalcon AWACS systems? And then were going to sell them to China?
No, the AWACS were developed in Israel with significant US help - practically all of the tech was of US-origin.
Israel struck a deal with China to sell three of them. The US stopped it at the last moment - as in within a hair’s breadth of transferring them to the Chinese.
I just read your link. The plot thickens. I wonder if we had strong words with them. Not.
or, bill clinton gave to them.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/HI29Ag01.html
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"Joint war games are a logical outcome of the Sino-Russian Friendship and Cooperation Treaty signed in 2001, and reflect the shared worldview and growing economic ties between the two Eastern Hemisphere giants."
http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed092605a.cfm
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Russia, China hold Peace Mission 2009 joint exercise
The exercise involves about 3,000 Russian and Chinese servicemen, nearly 300 units of army military equipment and over 40 fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters. Photo: BMP-86A infantry fighting vehicles of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) of China.
http://en.rian.ru/photolents/20090724/155604547.html
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[2009] Russia, China plan new joint military exercises
By MARTIN SIEFF, UPI Senior News Analyst
Published: March 26, 2009
WASHINGTON, March 26 (UPI) -- The continuing tensions over Russia's refusal to sell its state-of-the-art land warfare advanced weapons systems to China hasn't interrupted the rhythm of major joint military exercises between the two major land powers on the Eurasian landmass. The latest in the regular, biennial series of exercises between the two nations has been confirmed for this summer.
The next in the now well-established series of exercises called Peace Mission 2009 will be carried out in northeastern China, the Russian Defense Ministry announced March 18, according to a report carried by the RIA Novosti news agency.
The first bilateral Peace Mission maneuvers -- described at the time as counter-terrorism exercises -- were held in Russia and the eastern Chinese province of Shandong in August 2005. As we reported at that time, they were a lot bigger than mere counter-terrorism exercises. Warships, squadrons of combat aircraft and more than 10,000 troops were involved carrying out landings against hypothetically hostile shores. The maneuvers also involved large-scale paratroops drops. The scale and nature of those exercises suggested a trial run for a possible Chinese invasion of Taiwan with Russian support. ..."
http://www.upi.com/Security_Industry/2009/03/26/Russia_China_plan_new_joint_military_exercises/UPI-25021238094858/
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Russia, China flex muscles in joint war games
August 17, 2007
CHEBARKUL, Russia (Reuters) - Russia and China staged their biggest joint exercises on Friday but denied this show of military prowess could lead to the formation of a counterweight to NATO.
"Today's exercises are another step towards strengthening the relations between our countries, a step towards strengthening international peace and security, and first and foremost, the security of our peoples," Putin said.
Fighter jets swooped overhead, commandos jumped from helicopters on to rooftops and the boom of artillery shells shook the firing range in Russia's Ural mountains as two of the largest armies in the world were put through their paces.
The exercises take place against a backdrop of mounting rivalry between the West, and Russia and China for influence over Central Asia, a strategic region that has huge oil, gas and mineral resources.
Russia's growing assertiveness is also causing jitters in the West. Putin announced at the firing range that Russia was resuming Soviet-era sorties by its strategic bomber aircraft near NATO airspace.
http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-29030120070817?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0
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War Games: Russia, China Grow Alliance
September 23, 2005
In foreign policy it’s critical to “know thine enemy.” So American policymakers should be aware that Russia and China are inching closer to identifying a common enemy — the United States.
The two would-be superpowers held unprecedented joint military exercises Aug. 18-25. Soothingly named “Peace Mission 2005,” the drills took place on the Shandong peninsula on the Yellow Sea, and included nearly 10,000 troops. Russian long-range bombers, the army, navy, air force, marine, airborne and logistics units from both countries were also involved.
Moscow and Beijing claim the maneuvers were aimed at combating terrorism, extremism and separatism (the last a veiled reference to Taiwan), but it’s clear they were an attempt to counter-balance American military might.
Joint war games are a logical outcome of the Sino-Russian Friendship and Cooperation Treaty signed in 2001, and reflect the shared worldview and growing economic ties between the two Eastern Hemisphere giants."
Couldn’t of happened to a nicer group of people. Maybe the Chinese can now take care of their shortage of women by raiding Russia for all of the tarts that said country seems to produce. Bring plenty of penicillin and valtrex my Sinofriends...
The Chinese can copy and build, but their quality control is awful because of their culture...and on fighter jets with millions of parts, that will bite you.
Even at the low end, who is familiar with Norinco AK-47’s?
I have a 7.62. The finish work is lousy and the stampings rough. However, that having been said, it shoots well, no jams etc. You can even hit a target if not too far away.
If I were to get in a serious confrontation, I would want to be working at no more than 350 yards.
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