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Corps Set to Field SAW Replacement
Military.com ^ | 7/01/2010 | Matthew Cox

Posted on 07/01/2010 10:04:14 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld

The Marine Corps will field its new, lightweight auto rifle this fall to five combat battalions preparing for war-zone deployments.

Commandant Gen. James T. Conway gave Corps officials the green light in April to issue approximately 450 M27 Infantry Automatic Rifles, enough to replace every M249 squad automatic weapon in four infantry battalions and one light armored reconnaissance battalion.

The limited fielding is a final test to find out if the Heckler & Koch-made weapon performs as well in an operational environment as it has in testing, said Charles Clark III, who oversees infantry weapons requirements at the Corps' Combat Development and Integration office at Quantico, Va.

"The battlefield test will be a verification of what we have already established through extensive operational testing," Clark said. "We want to get a user assessment prior to full-rate production." Conway's decision comes despite his past concerns about replacing the M249 with a magazine-fed automatic rifle. His main worry is whether the M27's light weight and accuracy will be enough to make up for the loss of suppressive firepower Marine gunners will give up when they go into battle without the belt-fed M249.

Program officials acknowledge that a 30-round magazine cannot produce the high volume of fire the M249 is capable of when loaded with a 200-round belt. The Corps is considering high-capacity magazines that can hold 50 or 100 rounds of 5.56mm ammo, but Marines that deploy with this first batch of IARs will carry only 30-round magazines.

(Excerpt) Read more at military.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 556mm; banglist; dfens; hecklerkoch; iar; m249; m27; machinegun; marinecorps; rifle; usmc
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1 posted on 07/01/2010 10:04:23 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld
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To: sonofstrangelove

Haven’t these guys heard about the Shrike?


2 posted on 07/01/2010 10:05:24 PM PDT by Thunder90 (Fighting for truth and the American way... http://citizensfortruthandtheamericanway.blogspot.com/)
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To: 1COUNTER-MORTER-68; Mr. Mojo; James C. Bennett; mowowie; Captain Beyond; darkwing104; JRios1968; ...

Ping


3 posted on 07/01/2010 10:05:36 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld ( "Fortes fortuna adiuvat"-Fortune Favors the Strong)
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To: sonofstrangelove

Perhaps some 0300s will comment, but that doesn’t seem like a very robust magazine capacity for a squad weapon.


4 posted on 07/01/2010 10:10:19 PM PDT by OldDeckHand
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To: sonofstrangelove
HK M27 IAR Infantry Automatic Rifle

5 posted on 07/01/2010 10:12:52 PM PDT by jazusamo (But there really is no free lunch, except in the world of political rhetoric,.: Thomas Sowell)
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To: sonofstrangelove

A friend who recently retired hated the SAW and it’s 5.56 bullets. He said when you need a machine gun, you really need a MACHINE GUN, not a 5.56.


6 posted on 07/01/2010 10:15:31 PM PDT by eartrumpet
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To: eartrumpet

Not to mention, you can go through 30 rounds in half a heartbeat.


7 posted on 07/01/2010 10:21:59 PM PDT by shibumi (Soon, very soon, "Tsuru no Sugomori")
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To: sonofstrangelove
[. . .high-capacity magazines that can hold 50 or 100 rounds of 5.56mm ammo. . .]

The junior guy in the squad will probably have to hump the extra magazines and reload them.

8 posted on 07/01/2010 10:23:54 PM PDT by Brad from Tennessee (A politician can't give you anything he hasn't first stolen from you.)
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To: sonofstrangelove

I’m not real bright but isn’t a belt fed weapon desirable for a squad?


9 posted on 07/01/2010 10:28:48 PM PDT by Eagles6 ( Typical White Guy: Christian, Constitutionalist, Heterosexual, Redneck.)
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To: sonofstrangelove
If the squad needs a machine gun, they need a machine gun, not another rifle. This makes no sense to me. Follow the money cause somebody got paid off.

I know we could argue about the caliber all day, but If I needed a round of suppressive fire, I would choose the .308 with a belt, not just another mag fed 5.56. The other guys in the squad could give me that. The SAW was for special occasions that needed a special weapon.

10 posted on 07/01/2010 10:30:20 PM PDT by chuckles
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To: Eagles6
With a belt feed an assistant gunner can continue to link belts together as the gun is fired. The gunner and A-gunner carry ammo while additional belts of ammo are distributed among the squad.
11 posted on 07/01/2010 10:35:40 PM PDT by Brad from Tennessee (A politician can't give you anything he hasn't first stolen from you.)
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To: OldDeckHand

This doesn’t sound good to me. In fact, this “new” weapon doesn’t sound much better than the full auto M16A1s we used 30 years ago. With a couple of taped-together banana clips we could dish out 50+ 5.56mm rounds very quickly. I remember some nighttime, end-of-exercise “get-rid-of-your-ammo” shoots where the barrel of my rifle actually turned orange.

I’m not sure I get the point of this switch.


12 posted on 07/01/2010 10:37:58 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: chuckles

Great post.
BUMP what you said. As I mentioned in #12, this new weapon sounds like little more than an old full-auto M16.
(yawn)


13 posted on 07/01/2010 10:40:16 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: OldDeckHand
The M249 was adopted into the TOE right about the time I went into the Fleet.

Guys thought that it was pretty rad in that it could spray bullets really fast and Lance Corporals acted like they were hot stuff because their rank filled the role of Squad Automatic Rifleman.

Later on, they were happy to make Corporal because they could give the thing to some new Lance Corporal who wanted to be hot stuff.

They jammed a lot. You'd clear it, the SAW would rip off a few dozens rounds, then misfeed again. They made the M60E3 look reliable, and that's saying something. I don't think I ever saw the magazine feed slot work for more than three or four rounds with an M16A2's magazine locked in.

You also sounded like a giant Maraca when you moved around when the high capacity pouch was mounted and loaded with a full belt. Shooga-shooga-shooga... every step you took. Like marbles in a wooden box.

Range shooting out past 550 meters, you felt like you were shooting Styrofoam pellets. With a 7.62 M60E3 or larger, you knew where your rounds were impacting way downrange. With the SAW, sometimes it felt like your rounds were just disappearing in flight somewhere downrange.

When I think of the SAW, I regard it as the gun that looked a hell of a lot cooler than it actually was.

14 posted on 07/01/2010 10:40:20 PM PDT by The KG9 Kid
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To: sonofstrangelove
Hmmmm...Doesn't this violate the: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" concept?

Of course, my oldest grandson told me I wouldn't be satisfied unless the Corps went back to an M1 Garand...I did so enjoy the ping as the clip was ejected...

15 posted on 07/01/2010 11:01:18 PM PDT by SuperLuminal (Where is another agitator for republicanism like Sam Adams when we need him?)
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To: Brad from Tennessee

When you set a M240 in position, it’s more or less staying there until a real deliberate move is made. A SAW is to stay with the rifle squad as they maneuver, and there is no AG, so that means no linking of rounds. It’s there for overwhelming suppressive fire by a standard light squad and being able to move quickly. The SAW does have the ability to take M4 30-rd magazines, but it doesn’t work. The weapon malfunctions almost every single time before it can get through a single mag. The SAW’s also a maintenance nightmare. It needs to go, but I don’t see the advantage of dropping the belt-fed capability. The SAW was right to go for both, but it needs to work.


16 posted on 07/01/2010 11:34:04 PM PDT by Future Snake Eater ("Get out of the boat and walk on the water with us!”--Sen. Joe Biden)
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To: sonofstrangelove

Maybe they could replace the SAW qith a reliable, proven system, say

RPK (or RPKM) - oh, wait, it has only a 40 rd magazine

OK - how about a RPK-74
Oh, wait, it’s magazine fed as well./

Ok, how about a PK
250 rd belt, oh, wait, too much like an M-60 - called the Hog for a reason.

The Brits L86A1? - 5.56 and - yup - magazine fed.

Well, Oz troopies use the Lithgow F89, Standard Light Pattern. Nope, just the SAW with a different name.

JSDF use the SAW, so no help from them.

The Singaporean army adopted the new squad automatic weapon, known as Ultimax 100, in 1982. Uses a 100 rd drum magazine. Uses 5.56 NATO. So, maybe this one - eh?

New Zealand - nope, they use the SAW

How about the Swiss SIG MG 51? An updated MG-42 the grunt in your squad better be prepared to hump some ammo, they bad boy can shew it up.

Norwegian Army? NOpe, the SAW again.

The Germans will use the H&K MG4 - belt fed 5.56 NATO.

France? NOpe, the SAW once more.

My point? Not a whole lot of choice out there. THe few that are different are , by and large, magazine fed. Maybe we can score some of those Unimat 100 rd magazines....


17 posted on 07/02/2010 12:03:33 AM PDT by ASOC (Things are not always as they appear, ask the dog chasing the car)
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To: Future Snake Eater
I got out in 1969—way before the SAW or the M240. The M-60 was 23 pounds and moved with the squad but it was hard to keep it stable except in the prone position. They had a canvas container with a 250-round belt called an “assault pouch” you could attach to the gun but these things always jammed. But if you were prone with somebody laying next to you feeding the belt it was smooth. When the barrel got hot enough you flipped up a lever and pulled it off with an asbestos mitt and put another barrel in. The only problem with the M-60 was that the distinctive sound and the tracers would draw a lot of fire. We used to have a three-man gun team, the gunner, A-gunner and an ammo humper.
18 posted on 07/02/2010 12:19:02 AM PDT by Brad from Tennessee (A politician can't give you anything he hasn't first stolen from you.)
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To: Brad from Tennessee

The M240 gunner carries a “starter belt” (usually about 50 rounds) and the AG carries the bulk of the remaining ammo. Ammo bearers are only there if you happen to have enough people in the PLT, which hardly anyone ever does. The gunner also carries some ammo in some pouches on his body armor. The M240 is about 27 pounds, I believe, and is pretty solid as crew-served weapons go. We still do crew drills much the same way you guys probably did. M240 range cards were an EIB lane at my unit, as was basic load, fire, correct malfunction of the M240.

It’s funny you mention the sound. Some of our old timers lament the sound of the M240 as not being nearly as badass as the M60. “When the hog speaks, everyone listens.” Sounds like, based on your experience, that’s not entirely a bad thing!


19 posted on 07/02/2010 12:51:11 AM PDT by Future Snake Eater ("Get out of the boat and walk on the water with us!”--Sen. Joe Biden)
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To: Thunder90

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_nryuspdlA


20 posted on 07/02/2010 12:52:11 AM PDT by LeoWindhorse
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