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Catholics and immigration in Arizona
guardian.co.uk ^ | 6-28-10 | Crista Cloutier

Posted on 07/13/2010 7:42:37 PM PDT by NoLibZone

Illegal immigration is at the centre of a renewed American debate. Arizona's Governor Jan Brewer recently signed SB1070, also known by the cheerful misnomer "Support Our Law Enforcement and Safe Neighborhoods Act." At present, immigration is regulated by federal law. SB1070 will give the state of Arizona special powers to enforce this. It allows police to question a person's legal status when reasonable suspicion exists that the person is not an American citizen.

Their "illegal" status is the primary accusation against Mexican immigrants. But Father Charlie argues that this is a bureaucratic documentation problem, not a criminal act. "We are talking about paperwork, not a crime. By calling an undocumented worker a criminal, you put them in the same category as a rapist or burglar. This is our lowest moment. To vilify people for who they are, not what they have done."

(Excerpt) Read more at guardian.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Editorial; Mexico; US: Arizona
KEYWORDS: aliens; arizona; catholic; horsehockey; illegal; immigration; laraza; maldef; oligarch
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1 posted on 07/13/2010 7:42:38 PM PDT by NoLibZone
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To: NoLibZone
To vilify people for who they are, not what they have done."

The Onion?

2 posted on 07/13/2010 7:45:50 PM PDT by Onelifetogive (I never make the mistake of arguing with people for whose opinions I have no respect.)
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To: NoLibZone

Unitl the Catholic Church is held accountable by it’s parishoners for it’s error on this issue, don’t expect it to be fully solved.

Any church, proclaiming itself to be of God that does not honor the laws of the land it resides in and supports those flagrantly break those laws, is walking outside the commands of Christ and the apostles.

Furthermore, since Illegals are nothing better than thieves because they take what is not theirs legally, that is tax-payer funded benefits, the error by the Catholic church and OTHER Churches, cannot be excused,.


3 posted on 07/13/2010 7:49:07 PM PDT by SoConPubbie
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To: NoLibZone

Well. That certainly pi$$ed me off. Just because the UK has given up on the rule of law and surrendered to parasites doesn’t mean we have to.


4 posted on 07/13/2010 7:53:01 PM PDT by La Lydia
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To: NoLibZone

Another soft-headed pinko priest. They’re a dime a dozen.


5 posted on 07/13/2010 7:54:34 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (O Maria, sine labe concepta, ora pro nobis qui ad te confugimus.)
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To: NoLibZone
The catholic church could care less about the United States..
The RCC cares about the RCC..

More catholics means more political power..
More latins more political power..

6 posted on 07/13/2010 7:56:06 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: Onelifetogive

The UK Guardian is a far left publication. Its reporters should instead ask UK citizens their opinions regarding the UK’s immigrant Pakistani muslims who preach hatred, disloyalty and sharia law.


7 posted on 07/13/2010 7:58:05 PM PDT by conservativehistorian (.)
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To: hosepipe

I am a Catholic and the great majority of my Catholic friends strongly support SB 1070. The naive sayings of a parish priest should not form your opinion of Catholics.


8 posted on 07/13/2010 8:01:16 PM PDT by conservativehistorian (.)
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To: conservativehistorian; hosepipe
I am a Catholic and the great majority of my Catholic friends strongly support SB 1070. The naive sayings of a parish priest should not form your opinion of Catholics.

I am quite sure that hosepipe was referring to the leadership of the Catholic Church which it has already been proven over and over again supports the Illegal Aliens.

The parishoners of the Catholic Church, which I am sure by a large number support your position, need to hold the leadership accountable.

They need to tell them "No mas!"
9 posted on 07/13/2010 8:03:35 PM PDT by SoConPubbie
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To: SoConPubbie

The Catholic Church’s stand on illegal immigration has been consistent since about the 4th century AD. It’s one of the things that brought down the Roman Empire (all those wonderful future converts streaming across the frontiers) and it could destroy the US too.


10 posted on 07/13/2010 8:04:14 PM PDT by InABunkerUnderSF (Anyone who has read Roman history knows a barbarian invasion when they see one.)
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To: NoLibZone

Fortunately, the Catholic Church is not a democracy. The Catechism takes care of practical issues, and takes care of this one rather nicely and straight forwardly. The Church is not in error, priests are. They are human. To disregard the borders of nations is not excused by the Catholic Church. Period. Lawlessness is not okay. Yes, illegals here by 20 years or more may pose a difficult case, with many fully productive and patriotic individuals who are now with practically grown children born here, and others with grandchildren. However, for this nation to be under seige is unapologetically wrong and is abusive toward an otherwise charitable people. Catholics know this.


11 posted on 07/13/2010 8:05:18 PM PDT by RitaOK
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To: NoLibZone
Their "illegal" status is the primary accusation against Mexican immigrants. But Father Charlie argues that this is a bureaucratic documentation problem, not a criminal act. "We are talking about paperwork, not a crime. By calling an undocumented worker a criminal, you put them in the same category as a rapist or burglar. This is our lowest moment. To vilify people for who they are, not what they have done."

This idiot sounds like Bill O'Reilly. No you imbecile, it is against our laws and is a CRIME, punishable by 6 months in prison for the first time your caught and it's a FELONY for the second time with 2 years imprisonment being the sentence.

You enter my house without permission, it's a crime. You enter my car without permission, it's a crime. You enter my Country without permission, it's a crime. What's so hard for these dimwits to understand?

I would have no problem prosecuting these Priests and Bishops for aiding and abetting criminals.

12 posted on 07/13/2010 8:06:11 PM PDT by Prokopton
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To: SoConPubbie

Thanks for your response. It is time for targeted donations in the weekly envelopes.


13 posted on 07/13/2010 8:06:11 PM PDT by conservativehistorian (.)
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To: SoConPubbie
Is Father Charlie (Father Charlie??!!) an official spokesman of the Catholic Church?

No.

He’ just a misguided soul with an opinion in the matter regarding illegal immigration, one that's different from my priest's homily (sermon) last week, who preached that aliens not following another country's rules and laws regarding immigration are behaving sinfully—yet, both are not dictates of the Catholic Church but rather one priest's opinion.

Although my priest's opinion I think is nearer to the truth. I'd challenge any nation on Earth who let's in more immigrants—legally—than the USA. None come even close. Yet the foreign press is going to berate our country over wanting to—but not actually—deporting illegal aliens?

Catholics are not suddenly teaching people to disobey the law. Following the rule of law is required in order to be a Christian. Sure, we all have a moral imperative to disobey immoral laws, but how is our immigration law so ethically onerous, especially since we're letting in legal immigrants annually by the MILLIONS?

Why isn't it wrong to not wait your turn? Do those here illegally not know they're line jumping over others? Do they think those others patiently waiting are saps?

14 posted on 07/13/2010 8:08:48 PM PDT by Alas Babylon!
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To: hosepipe
RE: The catholic church could care less about the United States.. The RCC cares about the RCC.. More catholics means more political power.. More latins more political power..

While I agree in general with the Catholic bishops being out of touch with reality, I can't let it pass without noting that your statement is pretty idiotic. What do they become Catholics when the cross the border?

15 posted on 07/13/2010 8:17:25 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ("Anyone pushing Romney must love socialism...Piss on Romney and his enablers!!" ~ Jim Robinson)
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To: hosepipe
More catholics means more political power..
More latins more political power..

Does one become more Catholic and more latin once one illegally enters the US?
16 posted on 07/13/2010 8:17:26 PM PDT by posterchild (Endowed by my Creator with certain unalienable rights.)
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To: Alas Babylon!
Catholics are not suddenly teaching people to disobey the law. Following the rule of law is required in order to be a Christian. Sure, we all have a moral imperative to disobey immoral laws, but how is our immigration law so ethically onerous, especially since we're letting in legal immigrants annually by the MILLIONS?

Sorry, but Charlie is not an isolated case. Many of the leaders of the Catholic Church have stated publicly many of the same sentiments.

Many of those articles have been posted on FreeRepublic.
17 posted on 07/13/2010 8:17:56 PM PDT by SoConPubbie
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To: conservativehistorian
About 4 years ago a few miles from here, a drop house for illegals was busted by the Border Patrol, information came out that it was run by a local Catholic Church, and the Priest, I suspect other priests in the area were involved.

I don't hold that against Catholics not involved, but they need to be aware that these things are funded with their donations.

18 posted on 07/13/2010 8:19:17 PM PDT by c-b 1 (Reporting from behind enemy lines, in occupied AZTLAN.)
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To: conservativehistorian

Catholics are up for a political time. The money, property, and allowance of earthly forgiveness is under fire.


19 posted on 07/13/2010 8:22:22 PM PDT by eyedigress ((Old storm chaser from the west)?)
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To: posterchild

True Christians (I’m including Catholics here) know in their hearts what’s right and wrong—sin versus graceful works.

If I find several thousand dollars in an envelope with a business card on it; one with a name, phone number, and address, do I keep it, or try to contact the name on the card?

For a true Christian, that is a no-brainer. To keep it would be a sin, and imperils our soul. So we return it.

When we, then, as true Christians, violate another country’s reasonable laws on immigration, we are sinning. For a priest to advise a person that’s that is ust fine and dandy, well, in my opinion that priest is putting that soul and their own in jeporady. Since Catholics authorities are charged with safegaurding the souls in their flock, they are not being good shepherds, but rather wolves in sheeps clothing, to encourage illegal immigration. They are leading them to sin—not away.

I think illegals are not Christains at all. If they were, they’d be in line waiting for a visa.


20 posted on 07/13/2010 8:25:16 PM PDT by Alas Babylon!
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To: posterchild
[ Does one become more Catholic and more latin once one illegally enters the US? ]

No but the democrat party makes it possible for THEM TO VOTE...
Even tho they are not citizens.. to wit; more political power..
Two words...>> MOTOR VOTER...

21 posted on 07/13/2010 8:27:08 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: big'ol_freeper
[ What do they become Catholics when the cross the border? ]

They become VOTERS knucklehead...

22 posted on 07/13/2010 8:28:56 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: SoConPubbie

Is America a communist country? We’re led by one. Our Congress is led by several. We’re putting all kinds of officals in office who are communist by belief.

Just because there’s more than a few isolated cases in the Church, doesn’t mean they get to define the Church. The Church is primarily about helping the sinner get Salvation thru Grace. Any other thing that does the opposite is Satan’s work, not the Church’s; not God’s.


23 posted on 07/13/2010 8:30:17 PM PDT by Alas Babylon!
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To: NoLibZone
There is a fair sized segment of Catholics who lean hard left of social issues. They are led by their Priest, who is most likely Jesuit.

Aren't most of the South American Priests behind the social justice movement Jesuits? Just asking.

24 posted on 07/13/2010 8:31:58 PM PDT by muleskinner
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To: hosepipe

Your statement has nothing do with voters and all to do with numbers. Nice try to rescue an asinine statement, but the “RCC” could care less about voters in a particular country, even in your own analysis. In your dark and dipshit mind they only care about numbers.


25 posted on 07/13/2010 8:33:45 PM PDT by big'ol_freeper ("Anyone pushing Romney must love socialism...Piss on Romney and his enablers!!" ~ Jim Robinson)
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To: Alas Babylon!

While I generally agree with your first 4 paragraphs I disagree with your last one. Engaging in a particular illegal or sinful behavior may disqualify one from being a perfect sinless Christian, but not from being a Christian.


26 posted on 07/13/2010 8:34:43 PM PDT by posterchild (Endowed by my Creator with certain unalienable rights.)
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To: Alas Babylon!

While I generally agree with your first 4 paragraphs I disagree with your last one. Engaging in a particular illegal or sinful behavior may disqualify one from being a perfect sinless Christian, but not from being a Christian.


27 posted on 07/13/2010 8:34:47 PM PDT by posterchild (Endowed by my Creator with certain unalienable rights.)
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To: hosepipe

As a worldwide organization why would the RCC feel the need to shift it’s ‘voters’ from one jurisdiction to another?


28 posted on 07/13/2010 8:46:43 PM PDT by posterchild (Endowed by my Creator with certain unalienable rights.)
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To: c-b 1

Where do you live?


29 posted on 07/13/2010 8:50:57 PM PDT by amihow
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To: NoLibZone
Hey Father Charlie!
The illegals haven't FILED any paperwork for any bureaucrat to hold up!!!

The illegal immigrant’s presence causes the legal immigrants to have to work for slave wages. We need to SECURE THE BORDER before discussing what it means for the illegals to get to the back of the line.

30 posted on 07/13/2010 8:59:51 PM PDT by G Larry (Democrats: expediting the Destruction of America, before they lose power...)
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To: amihow

Southwest Arizona.


31 posted on 07/13/2010 9:02:11 PM PDT by c-b 1 (Reporting from behind enemy lines, in occupied AZTLAN.)
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To: NoLibZone
"But Father Charlie argues that this is a bureaucratic documentation problem, not a criminal act."

Catch him aiding and abetting, then seize all of his written communication...email, text msgs and letters.

Then, try him and ALL of his co-conspirators...even if it's Bishops and Cardinals...and send them all to prison.

If it's found the Catholic Church is SYSTEMATICALLY undermining immigration law and abetting those who break it, charge them under the RICO act and seize all church property in the US.

That is the right and just answer.

32 posted on 07/13/2010 9:03:36 PM PDT by Mariner (USS Tarawa, VQ3, USS Benjamin Stoddert, NAVCAMS WestPac, 7th Fleet, Navcommsta Puget Sound)
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To: Alas Babylon!
Just because there’s more than a few isolated cases in the Church, doesn’t mean they get to define the Church. The Church is primarily about helping the sinner get Salvation thru Grace. Any other thing that does the opposite is Satan’s work, not the Church’s; not God’s.

Tell it to the numerous church officials, including some in the Vatican, that are pushing for the US to either grant Amnesty or be lenient to Illegal Aliens.
33 posted on 07/13/2010 9:16:44 PM PDT by SoConPubbie
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To: posterchild; Alas Babylon!
While I generally agree with your first 4 paragraphs I disagree with your last one. Engaging in a particular illegal or sinful behavior may disqualify one from being a perfect sinless Christian, but not from being a Christian.

The Apostle John would disagree with you on that matter. We are not talking about mistakes, but purposeful sin; choosing what one KNOWS is wrong, for whatever purpose, is sin.

1 John 2

1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
34 posted on 07/13/2010 9:22:16 PM PDT by SoConPubbie
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To: SoConPubbie

Must one be sinless to be a Christian?

How did we get on this topic? How does this correlate to my earlier post?


35 posted on 07/13/2010 9:23:59 PM PDT by posterchild (Endowed by my Creator with certain unalienable rights.)
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To: Mad Dawg
Another soft-headed pinko priest. They’re a dime a dozen.

And I believe that they are "Moles". Go ahead and flame me.

36 posted on 07/13/2010 9:27:27 PM PDT by Don Corleone ("Oil the gun..eat the cannolis. Take it to the Mattress.")
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To: NoLibZone
Well Father they are law breakers. Not quite to the level of a Priest child molester swept under the rug by other Priests so law enforcement wouldn't find out, but still a law breaker.
We are talking about paperwork, not a crime. By calling an undocumented worker a criminal, you put them in the same category as a rapist or burglar.
Then think of it as breaking and entering but not taking anything...Drunk driving but no one was hurt, driving without a license and insurance. Are those some of the things a Priest could accept as OK to also overlook?
37 posted on 07/13/2010 10:57:17 PM PDT by lewislynn (What does the global warming movement and the Fairtax movement have in common? Disinformation)
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To: lewislynn
"Well Father they are law breakers. Not quite to the level of a Priest child molester swept under the rug by other Priests so law enforcement wouldn't find out, but still a law breaker."

We are talking about paperwork, not a crime. By calling an undocumented worker a criminal, you put them in the same category as a rapist or burglar.

"Then think of it as breaking and entering but not taking anything...Drunk driving but no one was hurt, driving without a license and insurance. Are those some of the things a Priest could accept as OK to also overlook?"

There is a man currently in a federal prison in Virginia for nothing more than not having some paperwork.

He had payroll to pay each week that came to just over $9,000. He ewas accustomed to paying his employees in cash.

The law says if you withdraw cash in amounts of $10,000 or more, you have to file some paperwork. Not $9,000, not $9,999, but $10,000.

Even though the man could show the judge that his total requirement of cash never amounted to $10,000, he was thrown in prison because the judge said that he was only withdrawing less than $10,000 to avoid the paperwork!!!

Sentance: TEN YEARS !!!

For not having the paperwork, I want all of those illegals jailed, fined, and deported.

38 posted on 07/13/2010 11:16:37 PM PDT by John Leland 1789 (Grateful)
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To: John Leland 1789
He had payroll to pay each week that came to just over $9,000. He ewas accustomed to paying his employees in cash.
My guess is THAT was his crime in the Judges mind.
39 posted on 07/13/2010 11:25:01 PM PDT by lewislynn (What does the global warming movement and the Fairtax movement have in common? Disinformation)
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To: big'ol_freeper
[ Your statement has nothing do with voters and all to do with numbers. ]

Numbers of voters..

40 posted on 07/13/2010 11:28:03 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: lewislynn

It is not, nor has it ever been illegal to pay employees in cash, nor was he convicted on any such charge.


41 posted on 07/13/2010 11:28:13 PM PDT by John Leland 1789 (Grateful)
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To: posterchild
[ As a worldwide organization why would the RCC feel the need to shift it’s ‘voters’ from one jurisdiction to another? ]

Because they want/appreciate more power in the other venue..

42 posted on 07/13/2010 11:29:50 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: John Leland 1789
It is not, nor has it ever been illegal to pay employees in cash,
I didn't say it was. As long as there is documentation for wages, deductions etc.
nor was he convicted on any such charge.
OK.
43 posted on 07/13/2010 11:39:31 PM PDT by lewislynn (What does the global warming movement and the Fairtax movement have in common? Disinformation)
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To: InABunkerUnderSF
"The Catholic Church’s stand on illegal immigration has been consistent since about the 4th century AD."

I had no idea how long the Church had that mindset. I know they have run an underground railroad for Illegals for decades. There was an article here not long ago about the Church on Catalina Island offering space for a Mexican Consulate to issue their Matricular IDs from.

44 posted on 07/13/2010 11:51:23 PM PDT by moehoward
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To: Don Corleone

I’ll be happy to flame you a soon as I figure out why.

What do you mean? I think most of ‘em aren’t so much “moles” as “useful idiots”, myself.

Of course, it has been suggested that I am a useless idiot, so maybe I should look up to them?


45 posted on 07/14/2010 4:18:54 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (O Maria, sine labe concepta, ora pro nobis qui ad te confugimus.)
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To: NoLibZone

“Their “illegal” status is the primary accusation against Mexican immigrants. But Father Charlie argues that this is a bureaucratic documentation problem, not a criminal act. “We are talking about paperwork, not a crime.”

Wonder what he thinks about counterfiters?

The illegal alien issue and the failure to deal with homosexual predators in collars is the Catholic Church’s counterpoint to the mainstream Protestant Church’s similar views on illegal invaders, homosexuals and gay clerics.

Christianity is in trouble at the very moment we are facing attacks by Islam. Those clerics who voice such virulently anti-American views should be removed from office. If they are not, their parishones should cease supporting their churches.


46 posted on 07/14/2010 7:18:54 AM PDT by ZULU
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To: NoLibZone
"We are talking about paperwork, not a crime. By calling an undocumented worker a criminal, you put them in the same category as a rapist or burglar. This is our lowest moment. To vilify people for who they are, not what they have done."

Sorry Father Charlie, I know you'd love to fill your churches and schools with the many illegals here in America so that the gov. would give you more of our taxes to "care for the poor,"

"These people ARE criminals by the very fact that they ignored our border and broke into our country.

If they broke into your home, are they merely the newly "undocumented owners" or burglars?

Calling them "illegal aliens" is exactly what our government laws call them so quit with the euphemisms of being "undocumented migrants or immigrants."

To further dispute your claim to truly care for these people, why do you not demand that their own governments provide the jobs, housing, education and health care that you are demanding American citizens provide?

I may be a bit mistaken here, but I do believe that your church has been in their country for centuries; why haven't you and your faith been demanding a better life for these poor people, or is it merely, "Que sara, sara."

47 posted on 07/14/2010 7:33:19 AM PDT by zerosix (Native Sunflower)
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To: NoLibZone

Please consider this statement from the Magisterium:

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.


48 posted on 07/14/2010 8:44:19 AM PDT by reagandemocrat
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To: Mad Dawg

Mad Dawg!

Ha! There you are. It’s Great to see you.

Your FRiend.

RD


49 posted on 07/14/2010 8:48:52 AM PDT by reagandemocrat (Got your bumper stickers here.)
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To: reagandemocrat

Hi backatcha!

Nice post! (where’s that statement from? I was drawing a blank, but I didn’t look hard.)

What’s amazing to me is the failure of some clergyd00ds to check the Church’s teaching BEFORE they run their moufs.


50 posted on 07/14/2010 9:30:42 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (O Maria, sine labe concepta, ora pro nobis qui ad te confugimus.)
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