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Amish, Muslims to be excused from Obamacare mandate?
American Thinker ^ | March 24, 2010 | WordWayze

Posted on 08/09/2010 8:23:26 AM PDT by COUNTrecount

The Senate health care bill just signed contains some exemptions to the "pay-or-play" mandate requiring purchase of Obamacare-approved health insurance or payment of a penalty fine. As Fox News has pointed out, for instance, the Amish are excused from the mandate:

So while most Americans would be required to sign up with insurance companies or government insurance plans, the church would serve as something of an informal insurance plan for the Amish.

Law experts say that kind of exemption withstands scrutiny.

"Here the statute is going to say that people who are conscientiously opposed to paying for health insurance don't have to do it where the conscientious objection arises from religion," said Mark Tushnet a Harvard law professor. "And that's perfectly constitutional."

Apparently, this exemption will apply similarly to believers in Islam, which considers health insurance - and, for that matter, any form of risk insurance - to be haraam (forbidden).

Steve Gilbert of Sweetness & Light calls our attention to the probability that Muslims will also be exempt. According to a March 23 publication on an authoritative Islamic Web site managed by Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, various fatwas (religious decrees) absolutely forbid Muslim participation in any sort of health care or other risk insurance:

Health insurance is haraam like other types of commercial insurance, because it is based on ambiguity, gambling and riba (usury). This is what is stated in fatwas by the senior scholars.

In Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa'imah (15/277) there is a quotation of a statement of the Council of Senior Scholars concerning the prohibition on insurance and why it is haraam:

It says in Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa'imah (15/251):

Firstly: Commercial insurance of all types is haraam because it involves ambiguity, riba, uncertainty, gambling and consuming people's wealth unlawfully, and other shar'i

Secondly: It is not permissible for the Muslim to get involved with insurance companies by working in administration or otherwise, because working in them comes under the heading of cooperating in sin and transgression, and Allaah forbids that as He says: "but do not help one another in sin and transgression. And fear Allaah. Verily, Allaah is Severe in punishment"

[al-Maa'idah 5:2]. End quote.

reservations. And Allaah knows best.

So, it turns out that observant Muslims are not only strictly forbidden from buying any health insurance under the ObamaCare mandate, but may also not even work for any company that provides such insurance or any other form of commercial insurance.

It is not made clear whether or not it is religiously okay to accept "free" non-insured medical care such as that offered in hospital ERs and to some who are covered by Medicaid.

Whether it's all right to serve as a doctor, nurse, or orderly caring for patients whose medical services are being paid for by insurance is not covered in the present response - but one could probably obtain a religious ruling from the Sheikh, whose site welcomes the submission of questions about Islamic law and practices.

WordWayze is the nom de plume of a freelance writer and political pundit who would prefer not to become the object of any attention such has been paid to the Mohammed cartoonists of Denmark and others.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: dodd4islam; obama4islam; pelosi4islam; postrepost; romney4islam
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1 posted on 08/09/2010 8:23:29 AM PDT by COUNTrecount
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To: COUNTrecount

I never realized how Amish I was before... imagine that


2 posted on 08/09/2010 8:24:20 AM PDT by Mr. K (Physically unable to proofreed (<---oops! see?))
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To: COUNTrecount

I guess everybody could just go claim they object on the basis that it is haram. Make the government prove otherwise.


3 posted on 08/09/2010 8:25:46 AM PDT by La Lydia
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To: Mr. K

If I didn’t know better...I would think this bill is designed to convert Americans to muslim or amish.


4 posted on 08/09/2010 8:25:52 AM PDT by Blue Turtle
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To: COUNTrecount
Yep. Time to go out and buy a hay-burner and one of them fancy buggies.

May even grow a beard...

5 posted on 08/09/2010 8:26:11 AM PDT by paddles ("The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates." Tacitus)
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To: COUNTrecount

politics does indeed make strange bedfellows.


6 posted on 08/09/2010 8:26:35 AM PDT by the invisib1e hand (Gawd I love being an American.)
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To: COUNTrecount

That’s always sort of interested me.

Why should religion exempt someone (even the Amish) from our laws?

If my religion says it’s ok to sacrifice virgins, should that be tolerated?

Waht about the Mormons and bigamy?


7 posted on 08/09/2010 8:27:01 AM PDT by Pessimist
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To: COUNTrecount

This would be a great basis for declaring the whole bill unconstitutional!

I want a Catholic exemption because Obamacare covers aborition and euthenasia!!!!


8 posted on 08/09/2010 8:27:33 AM PDT by G Larry (Democrats: expediting the Destruction of America, before they lose power...)
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To: COUNTrecount

I hadn’t read about the exemption for haraam, but did read that a person who adheres to “faith healing” is exempt.


9 posted on 08/09/2010 8:28:04 AM PDT by Cboldt
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This was a real hot topic.

In March.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/search?SX=4c601d7e8791ea5bcf1fcf6929d9715e0c50b101;m=all;o=time;q=deep;s=Amish%2C%20Muslims%20to%20be%20excused%20from%20Obamacare%20mandate%3F;t=-1


10 posted on 08/09/2010 8:28:45 AM PDT by ButThreeLeftsDo (Molon Labe.)
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To: Mr. K

Couldn’t conservative construct a sound theological argument for opposition to a socialized healthcare system and also be exempt?

Without out stretching, they could argue based on the components of abortion, euthanasia, and privacy issues.


11 posted on 08/09/2010 8:29:19 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: COUNTrecount

Can we make FReeping a religion?


12 posted on 08/09/2010 8:29:23 AM PDT by chrisser (Starve the Monkeys!)
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To: COUNTrecount

. . . . guess we’re all gonna have to start sporting beards as our first defence against Bamstercare .


13 posted on 08/09/2010 8:29:47 AM PDT by lionheart 247365 (-:{ GLENN BECK is 0bama's TRANSPARENCY CZAR }:-)
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To: chrisser

“Can we make FReeping a religion?”

Religion gives you a day of rest - FR doesn’t.


14 posted on 08/09/2010 8:31:33 AM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: COUNTrecount

Are followers of the constitution exempt?


15 posted on 08/09/2010 8:32:00 AM PDT by Jack Wilson
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To: COUNTrecount

The content of Obamacare is irrelevant! Any federal version of health care is unconstitutional on its face since Article 1 Section 8 of the Constitution does not specifically list regulating health care as an enumerated power! The people are not bound to comply with an unconstitutional act!


16 posted on 08/09/2010 8:32:04 AM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax, you earn it, you keep it! www.FairTaxNation.com)
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To: Blue Turtle
If I didn’t know better...I would think this bill is designed to convert Americans to muslim or amish.

Suspect just getting more voters.

17 posted on 08/09/2010 8:32:20 AM PDT by Logical me
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To: Pessimist
-- Why should religion exempt someone (even the Amish) from our laws? --

It's a bit of a patchwork, but goes back to honoring the pacifism of Quakers as against the power of the state to compel militia duty, and now, the draft.

As you point out, other religious practices (polygamy, human sacrifice) do not obtain protection. Since the government makes the laws, it gets to pick where it draws the line. Some religions are exempt from drug laws (indians can eat magic mushrooms and cactus), tax laws attempt to avoid houses of worship, etc.

I find the area of government vs., religion to be one of the most fascinating to study (reading the cases) because the ultimate rationale for the decisions are telling of cultural bias.

18 posted on 08/09/2010 8:33:10 AM PDT by Cboldt
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To: Mr. K

What about Christian Scientists? They refuse to use all medicine due to religious beliefs.


19 posted on 08/09/2010 8:33:25 AM PDT by Laserman
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To: chrisser
Can we make FReeping a religion?

LOL, good one
20 posted on 08/09/2010 8:34:41 AM PDT by Scythian
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To: La Lydia
There is precedent for this. When social security was first imposed on the nation, FDR's goons descended on Amish farms here in Pennsylvania to seize horses, buggies and anything else of value because the Amish community has an excellent system in place to care for its elderly and does so as a part of their Biblical fundamentalist faith.

About 20 years later, these incidents worked their way though the courts and the IRS created a special religious exemption as a result.

By the mid-1970's (when people in large numbers first begin to realize that Social Security was nothing more than a pyramid scheme), hundreds of thousands of people begin applying for the same religious exemption. I was one of them. The IRS simply issued a ruling for a blanket denial unless the religious order was in effect and recognized at the time of the 1950's ruling.

I think the government still has a file on the rest of us who applied but were denied under that ruling.

21 posted on 08/09/2010 8:35:10 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Mr. K

I’ll have to go back to my roots. My father was a chiropractor and does not believe in the medical profession or anything the medical profession stands for.


22 posted on 08/09/2010 8:35:26 AM PDT by television is just wrong
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To: chrisser
And what about those who have been touched by His noodly appendage?


23 posted on 08/09/2010 8:36:34 AM PDT by Mr. K (Physically unable to proofreed (<---oops! see?))
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To: COUNTrecount

“It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.” [Patrick Henry, May 1765 Speech to the House of Burgesses]

This Republic cannot servive without ONE source of moral standards. Carving out special groups for special laws will certainly doom this nation to failure and will probably result in Sharia law for the entire world. We must return to the foundations this nation was built on.


24 posted on 08/09/2010 8:36:41 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: Mr. K

>>>>I never realized how Amish I was before... imagine that

Me too. :)


25 posted on 08/09/2010 8:36:45 AM PDT by Keith in Iowa
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To: Pessimist

Amish do not pay social security. They have an agreement with the feds that they will take care of their own. I don’t know about Medicare but I bet they don’t pay that either.

They don’t pay property taxes because they rotate the meeting place for religious services around every household.

They also make a moderately good living because although they don’t farm many acres they also don’t have much in equipment costs.


26 posted on 08/09/2010 8:37:21 AM PDT by RadiationRomeo (Step into my mind and glimpse the madness that is me)
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To: Blue Turtle

I hadn’t thought of that but it almost makes sense, doesn’t it.


27 posted on 08/09/2010 8:42:57 AM PDT by bergmeid
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To: COUNTrecount

Can I be Amish and still plug things in?

As to the Muslim part, does this include car insurance? something they must have in most every state to drive. What about state provided health insurance?

If they just run to the ER or DR office when they need something and pay cash, fine. If they run to the ER because they have no money, and no insurance. They are part of the problem.


28 posted on 08/09/2010 8:44:06 AM PDT by cableguymn
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To: COUNTrecount

Hmmmm....wonder if Scientologists will accept this mandate? Or even Christian Scientiests, and some other religions that have very different ideas about hospitals, doctors, medicine and medical insurance. I think there is a Pandora’s box that will soon be opened regarding religious beliefs and mandated health insurance programs and the requirements of this bill. Note: What a conflict there could be between those liberal Hollywoodians who advocate Scientology and have supported Obama, LOL!!!


29 posted on 08/09/2010 8:46:04 AM PDT by CitizenM ("Do you miss me yet?" Yes, George, we do.)
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To: CynicalBear
Hear, hear. Good quote and good thoughts. Being as we're not united by a common set of morals, we're not united. And you know what was said of a house divided.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

30 posted on 08/09/2010 8:46:32 AM PDT by wku man (Steel yourselves, patriots, and be ready. Won't be long now....)
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To: ButThreeLeftsDo

Thank you. Did a search, nothing came up.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/search?m=all;o=time;q=quick;s=Amish%2C%20Muslims%20to%20be%20excused%20from%20Obamacare%20mandate%3F


31 posted on 08/09/2010 8:47:15 AM PDT by COUNTrecount (Barry...above his poi grade.)
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To: RadiationRomeo
I wouldn't say they make a moderately good living. At best, they could be described as lower middle class. We have a number of them doing contracting work in our plant during the winter. They have an excellent work ethic and many are very good with power tools. I once asked one why they could be so proficient with power tools when I understood it was against their religion to own such tools.

The bearded gentlemen smiled at me and said the key is the word "own". The tools belonged to the subcontractor who hired them. They were just using them to do the job.

He even gave me a catalog of tools they could own-- everything from kitchen gadgets to mechanical tools. None required electricity, power or batteries of any type. I bought a few to use in my garage if everything collapses. I think the Amish will suffer a lot less than most of us in such an event.

32 posted on 08/09/2010 8:47:43 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Mr. K

I never realized how much I like those Little House on the Prairie dresses either.


33 posted on 08/09/2010 8:48:05 AM PDT by timeflies
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To: COUNTrecount

If we are paying a tax that Muslims don’t have to pay, we basically just became Dhimmis.


34 posted on 08/09/2010 8:48:47 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (I can see November from my house.)
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To: COUNTrecount

I bet they are wishing that this little bit of info did not come out until after the elections.....


35 posted on 08/09/2010 8:53:18 AM PDT by Mr. K (Physically unable to proofreed (<---oops! see?))
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To: COUNTrecount

That’s it! I’m painting my wrangler black, putting a red triangle reflector on the back and a card board horse cut out on the front.


36 posted on 08/09/2010 8:56:32 AM PDT by Michael Barnes (Call me when the bullets start flying.)
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To: COUNTrecount
Since I am a Christian and believe in the Bible this passage excluydes me from having to purchase Obama Care. Any lawyers out there want to take the case? /s/

James 5:14-15: "Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: and the prayer of faith shall save him that is sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, it shall be forgiven him." (ASV) This appears to be a guarantee of recovery for anyone who goes through a specific religious ritual, led by elders from his church. Not only healing would be automatically accomplished, but the formerly ill person would have his sins forgiven.

37 posted on 08/09/2010 8:58:28 AM PDT by sniper63 (I am the leader of the TEA Party, I, myself am the leader of me, myself for I am the TEA Party!)
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To: COUNTrecount

If Muslims can be exempted on the grounds of religious objection, Catholics and evangelical Protestants should also be exempted.


38 posted on 08/09/2010 9:01:13 AM PDT by dangus
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To: RadiationRomeo

Amish do pay property taxes like everyone else. Rotating meeting places does not give them a tax exemption.


39 posted on 08/09/2010 9:12:38 AM PDT by mongrel
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To: cableguymn

The Amish do pay in cash and have community fundraisers if the bill gets too expensive. Many times they will opt not to take expensive treatment if it’s not cost effective and willingly face death sooner rather than bankrupt the community.

Some variants of the Amish (New Order, some Beachy Amish, and others) maintain government exemption from insurance but are more lenient on technology use. All of them will make you wear old-fashioned clothes though.


40 posted on 08/09/2010 9:16:47 AM PDT by mongrel
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To: Vigilanteman

When I said Amish made a moderately good living I meant it. But I consider lower middle class a moderately good living. Maybe that’s because I spent a good part of my life extremely poor. We all have different perspectives.


41 posted on 08/09/2010 9:17:50 AM PDT by RadiationRomeo (Step into my mind and glimpse the madness that is me)
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To: COUNTrecount
Libtards are always bragging about how they believe in justice as fairness, equality, and nondiscrimination.Making these exceptions is another example of libtard hypocrisy.
42 posted on 08/09/2010 9:20:49 AM PDT by mjp ((pro-{God, reality, reason, egoism, individualism, natural rights, limited government, capitalism}))
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To: COUNTrecount

Interesting...the government offering an incentive to become Muslim....


43 posted on 08/09/2010 9:25:03 AM PDT by GenXteacher (He that hath no stomach for this fight, let him depart!)
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To: COUNTrecount


Amish, Muslims to be excused from Obamacare mandate?

A couple of years ago The Wall Street Journal had an extensive article
about the interaction of The Amish with the health care system.
They don’t buy health care insurance, but do get SWEET deals with
healthcare providers and hospital.

I admit I got a bit jealous when I saw the discounts they get...
in other words, we subsidize healthcare for the Amish by picking up
a fair chunk of their bills.


44 posted on 08/09/2010 9:26:43 AM PDT by VOA
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To: VOA

“in other words, we subsidize healthcare for the Amish by picking up a fair chunk of their bills.”

Or they are getting billed at something closer to the actual costs.


45 posted on 08/09/2010 9:29:37 AM PDT by DonaldC (A nation cannot stand in the absence of religious principle.)
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To: COUNTrecount
I haven't seen it mentioned here, but there are Christian co-ops that you can also participate in, that would allow you to be exempt from Obamacare. I wish I could remember the names of them ('Samaritan' was part of one, and I think 'Medi-Share' is another).

They've been around for a number of years, very small but rapidly growing. The idea sounds weird but it is work - everyone sends in their elligible bills each month, and each month the co-op tells you who to mail a check to and the amount. I understand it runs about $300-400/month for a family plan, which is a huge amount cheaper than traditional health plans. Of course this is really just for major healthcare costs (I think one popular plan covered issues over $911).

The big 'catch' is that you have to live a healthy lifestyle - smokers, sexually immoral and so on need not apply. But for a lot of us, it may be our best bet if Obamacare cannot be stopped.

46 posted on 08/09/2010 9:31:17 AM PDT by Liberty1970 (http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/lydiablievernicht)
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To: Blue Turtle

If I didn’t know better...I would think this bill is designed to convert Americans to muslim or amish.

***************

One a blood cult the others pacifists. I wonder who will dominate in that dichotomy?


47 posted on 08/09/2010 9:52:33 AM PDT by Psalm 144 (We have, therefore, to resolve to conquer or die. - Samuel Adams)
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To: Psalm 144

I’m thinking of declaring myself to be Almish and leaving it up to the government to Prove that I’m not. Just because I struggle daily to maintain a technology free life, and *occassionally* have my digressions and end up playing video games and watching crappy tv shows, who is the government to tell me that I’m not devout enough to be exempt?

That kind of puts the shoe on the other foot. Does the government then go around and say “you are not a devout almish, so you have to pay!”?


48 posted on 08/09/2010 10:05:16 AM PDT by Ueriah
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To: Psalm 144

I’m thinking of declaring myself to be Almish and leaving it up to the government to Prove that I’m not. Just because I struggle daily to maintain a technology free life, and *occassionally* have my digressions and end up playing video games and watching crappy tv shows, who is the government to tell me that I’m not devout enough to be exempt?

That kind of puts the shoe on the other foot. Does the government then go around and say “you are not a devout almish, so you have to pay!”?


49 posted on 08/09/2010 10:05:27 AM PDT by Ueriah
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To: G Larry

Excellent point, I also am Catholic, so me too.


50 posted on 08/09/2010 10:49:57 AM PDT by Rumplemeyer
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