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Marines Unsure of New Rifle Plan
Military.com ^ | 11/17/2010 | Christian Lowe

Posted on 11/18/2010 11:16:23 PM PST by ErnstStavroBlofeld

Lt. Gen. George Flynn, who heads the Marine Corps Combat Development Command in Quantico, told reporters at a Washington, D.C. breakfast that the service plans to finish outfitting five battalions with the new M-27 Infantry Automatic Rifle next month and then will observe how those Marines use it on deployment before changing the organization, training, and tactics of infantry units around the new weapon.

But Flynn pushed back at critics of the M-27, saying the improved accuracy of the Heckler and Koch-made automatic rifle makes up for a lower rate of fire compared to the M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon it's being fielded to replace.

"The initial feedback was that the IAR performed pretty well," Flynn said of early evaluations of the M-27. "Accuracy has a suppressive power all by itself."

(Excerpt) Read more at military.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 556mm; banglist; hecklerkoch; iar; m27; marines; ordinance; quantico; usmc
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1 posted on 11/18/2010 11:16:30 PM PST by ErnstStavroBlofeld
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To: ErnstStavroBlofeld

Why the hell are we buying kraut firearms?


2 posted on 11/18/2010 11:18:28 PM PST by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: pissant

He’s certainly near the top of my list


3 posted on 11/18/2010 11:20:10 PM PST by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: ErnstStavroBlofeld

Well, the Krauts make some good stuff, but we have a history of making some mighty fine firearms ourselves.


4 posted on 11/18/2010 11:32:50 PM PST by Husker24
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To: 1COUNTER-MORTER-68; Mr. Mojo; James C. Bennett; mowowie; Captain Beyond; darkwing104; JRios1968; ...

Ping


5 posted on 11/18/2010 11:32:54 PM PST by ErnstStavroBlofeld
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To: pissant

Tough to be an HK anything. They make superb firearms. I have a USP45 Tactical. Best automatic I own, though a little ‘big’.


6 posted on 11/18/2010 11:36:55 PM PST by KoRn (Department of Homeland Security, Certified - "Right Wing Extremist")
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To: KoRn

It’s a ludicrous ‘replacement’ for the 249


7 posted on 11/18/2010 11:40:52 PM PST by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: ErnstStavroBlofeld

We should make our own military rifles. This is beyond stupid.

The “outsourcing” of EVERYTHING has got to stop!


8 posted on 11/18/2010 11:42:07 PM PST by ROTB (Without a Christian revival, we are government slaves, or nuked by China/Russia during armed revolt.)
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To: ROTB

I agree. I do not like it at all.


9 posted on 11/18/2010 11:42:52 PM PST by ErnstStavroBlofeld
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To: KoRn
Hk has made more than a few not so very good firearms, also. About as many flops as they've had success.

The one you own is primo, however.

10 posted on 11/18/2010 11:46:55 PM PST by The KG9 Kid (l)
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To: pissant

maybe because they make them better than us?


11 posted on 11/18/2010 11:49:44 PM PST by paul51 (11 September 2001 - Never forget)
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To: ROTB

most likely it will be manufactured here under license to HK. We fielded the Krag because it beat anything we had.

When guns cease to be evil, we will design better ones. We
have the Barrett, the LWRC, etc..


12 posted on 11/18/2010 11:52:41 PM PST by rahbert
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To: paul51

They don’t.


13 posted on 11/18/2010 11:55:24 PM PST by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: ErnstStavroBlofeld

Here’s an interesting vid clip on the IAR:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YzGzeLh3mc

It kind of sounds like a modern equivalent of the BAR.


14 posted on 11/19/2010 12:13:22 AM PST by DemforBush (If I ever get back my blue jeans...Lord, how happy could one man be?)
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To: pissant

Because we’ve pissed away our manufacturing base. We no longer make much of the tooling required to make products like weapons...

Germany, however, still makes a lot of machine tooling.


15 posted on 11/19/2010 1:11:26 AM PST by NVDave
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To: pissant
Why the hell are we buying kraut firearms?

Because we buy the best weapon whether it's American or not?

FWIW, the weapon it replaces, the M249 SAW? It's manufactured by FN Herstal, a Belgian arms company.

16 posted on 11/19/2010 1:12:23 AM PST by The Grammarian
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To: ErnstStavroBlofeld
"Accuracy has a suppressive power all by itself."

Well said General!

17 posted on 11/19/2010 1:13:01 AM PST by Rummyfan (Iraq: it's not about Iraq anymore, it's about the USA!)
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To: pissant

http://larrycorreia.wordpress.com/2007/10/09/hk-because-you-suck-and-we-hate-you/


18 posted on 11/19/2010 1:13:33 AM PST by dagogo redux (A whiff of primitive spirits in the air, harbingers of an impending descent into the feral.)
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To: ErnstStavroBlofeld

19 posted on 11/19/2010 1:37:03 AM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Visualize)
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To: NVDave
Because we've pissed away our manufacturing base. We no longer make much of the tooling required to make products like weapons...

Actually, we now have more weapon manufacturers, especially of Stoner-patterned guns like this IAR, than we have ever had before. Raising demand in the face of import restrictions (try getting one of those dirt cheap Norinco AR15s) has created an environment in which every other machine shop is churning out their own receiver sets and bolt carriers groups. Anyone with even the most basic milling machine can purchase forged receiver blanks from suppliers like DSArms and produce serialized firearms faster than a custom wheel shop can turn out tire rims. Our domestic small arms industry is booming.

20 posted on 11/19/2010 1:48:08 AM PST by Brass Lamp
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To: Rummyfan; ErnstStavroBlofeld; The Grammarian; paul51; pissant; ROTB; KoRn; JoeProBono
"Accuracy has a suppressive power all by itself."

True enough but if that is your philosophy then why use the SAW at all. You can do the same thing with your standard issue weapon.

Reading down further

The Corps' adoption of the IAR has been fraught with controversy, with critics arguing the limited firepower of an M-27 -- which shoots a 30-round magazine -- would leave Marines vulnerable.

The replacement of the M-249 with the M27 does not make sense if you still consider the SAW a useful part of your combat strategy.

It has a lower rate of fire than the current SAW and the same mag capacity as the standard infantry weapon. So the M-27 can not produce the sustained fire of the current SAW and it can not produce the rate of fire of the current SAW.

The M-27 does not fit the strategy profile of a SAW. Basically they are simply issuing a second standard issue infantry weapon which makes no sense.

Accuracy for the SAW is secondary to the sustained suppressive fire it is there to produce. The 30 round mag and low rate of fire makes it inferior to the present weapon. If HK could field a new weapon with same rate of fire and a 200 round drum mag with improved accuracy I could get behind it.

IMO this new weapon is placing our Marines at increased risk. The SAW carrier job is to lay down suppressing fire while the squad maneuvers. In other word he is supposed to scare the SH!T out of the enemy. He can’t perform that job as well if he has to change has to change magazines 6.5 times more often. I don’t care how much more accurate the rifle is. It is pretty simple math.

21 posted on 11/19/2010 1:54:49 AM PST by Pontiac
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To: ErnstStavroBlofeld

Very shortly the rest of US weaponry will be made in India.


22 posted on 11/19/2010 1:59:11 AM PST by MissyMack66 (ROMNEY SUCKS: don't be fooled like we were in MA.)
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To: Husker24

...we have a history of making some mighty fine firearms ourselves.

We have a history of making some fine things in general.
The key word in that statement being “history”!


23 posted on 11/19/2010 2:01:16 AM PST by djf (The word "concise" is too big!)
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To: Pontiac

24 posted on 11/19/2010 2:02:44 AM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Visualize)
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To: The Grammarian
Because we buy the best weapon whether it's American or not?

Hardly. This class of weapon has been obsolete since about 1943 and this specimen is nowhere near being the best version of it. This is just someone's way of compensating HK for the loss of a couple of big contracts. This little project will allow the Germans to unload their unwanted 416 parts on us after all.

25 posted on 11/19/2010 2:03:51 AM PST by Brass Lamp
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To: JoeProBono
M-249.

Notice the litter of brass around the SAW.

Sending huge amounts of high energy projectiles at the enemy is the primary purpose of the SAW.

It would take the M-27 more than 6.5 times as long as the M-249 to produce that pile of empty brass.

26 posted on 11/19/2010 2:17:49 AM PST by Pontiac
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To: Pontiac

27 posted on 11/19/2010 2:39:13 AM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet - Visualize)
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To: rahbert

>>We fielded the Krag because it beat anything we had.<<

That certainly is damning with faint praise. The Krag may very well might have been the best for a very short time frame; but its cartridge left a lot to be desired, as it had little to no stopping power.

I own one for historical value only.


28 posted on 11/19/2010 3:25:19 AM PST by NTHockey (Rules of engagement #1: Take no prisoners)
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To: ErnstStavroBlofeld
"Accuracy has a suppressive power all by itself."

Indeed it does. If I were assaulting a hilltop position- I'd rather it be held by a platoon of spray and pray troops than a squad from the Marine Corps Rifle Team.

Marksmanship is the state religion of the Marine Corps. I was in during the M16A1 era. I badly wished we could have gone back to the M14.

29 posted on 11/19/2010 3:39:24 AM PST by Riley (The Fourth Estate is the Fifth Column.)
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To: pissant

Because our House and Senate have destroyed the firearms industry in the USA and enforce it via the BATFE.

The 1986 FOPA Law made it very difficult for small arms manufacturers to develop new weapons without onerous restrictions, penalties, and fines.

Meanwhile, other countries without these laws are free to do all the R&D they want.


30 posted on 11/19/2010 4:57:44 AM PST by WaterBoard
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To: NTHockey
>>We fielded the Krag because it beat anything we had.<< That certainly is damning with faint praise. The Krag may very well might have been the best for a very short time frame; but its cartridge left a lot to be desired, as it had little to no stopping power. I own one for historical value only.

You are so underwhelming with your ignorance of terminal ballistics. The Krag was replaced by the 1903 Springfield which was a much more robust design, less complicated to manufacture and could be loaded much more quickly via stripper clips. The .30-03 cartridge which replaced the .30 U.S. (.30-40 Krag) fired the same 220 grain round nose bullet at about the same velocity as the Krag which, of course, gave about the same terminal ballistics. The cartridge did not have the reach desired so was modified to become the .30-06 which fired 147-150 grain and 170 grain spire point bullets giving flatter trajectory and a greater effective range.

Until you shoot something with a Krag, hold your opinion in your pocket.

31 posted on 11/19/2010 5:21:39 AM PST by Lion Den Dan
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To: The Grammarian; pissant

Currently FN makes like 60% of the samll arms for the US military.


32 posted on 11/19/2010 5:27:56 AM PST by mad_as_he$$ (What flavor Kool-aid are you drinking?)
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To: ErnstStavroBlofeld

Rule #1 when dealing the Ordinance Department:

Trust but verify.

This looks like one of those test that won’t work out for the manufacturer.


33 posted on 11/19/2010 7:46:13 AM PST by texmexis best
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To: texmexis best
Rule #1 when dealing the Ordinance(sic) Department:

Ordnance department:


34 posted on 11/19/2010 8:16:20 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Lion Den Dan

Thank you professor, for your lesson in ballistics. I did not realize that there was a doctor of ballistics among us. However, there are numerous US Army and USMC reports that it took multiple hits to stop Boxer and Filipino troops.

As for my opinion, I will express it - without your permission - as long as America is a free country. However, in the unlikely event that you are now dictator, I REFUSE.


35 posted on 11/19/2010 9:14:41 AM PST by NTHockey (Rules of engagement #1: Take no prisoners)
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To: dagogo redux

Read his “about me” page. He wrote a very funny and interesting bio.


36 posted on 11/19/2010 10:52:41 AM PST by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: NTHockey
Wow. A cartridge roughly equivalent to the 30.06 has “ little to no stopping power”?

Who knew?

37 posted on 11/19/2010 11:19:42 AM PST by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: MissyMack66

Way off skillet, the H&K 416 is made in the USA, check the proof marks when you can....


38 posted on 11/19/2010 1:38:00 PM PST by Article10 (Roger That)
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To: WaterBoard

Wrong get a type 10 FLL and design on.


39 posted on 11/19/2010 1:39:20 PM PST by Article10 (Roger That)
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To: The Grammarian

The M249 is entirely manufactured in Columbia SC by FN Mfg LLC. A small thing called the Berry Amendment makes that a reality.


40 posted on 11/19/2010 1:43:04 PM PST by Article10 (Roger That)
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To: Article10

If you don’t believe me, read the interview with Eugene Stoner (one of the designers behind the M16) and he will tell you the same thing I did.


41 posted on 11/19/2010 3:07:49 PM PST by WaterBoard
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To: NTHockey

You are free to express your opinion though when it is uneducated you come off looking foolish.


42 posted on 11/19/2010 3:34:48 PM PST by Lion Den Dan
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To: WaterBoard

Stoner is only one man that was part of a design team 40 years ago, with his own opinion, there are many, many designs in the US that never see the light of day. Get a tour of KAC’s technical library someday or if you are lucky enough to visit a SOCOM weapons library.

Facts are for $2000.00 year get a type 10 and make anything you want and blast away. What most people in the consumer gun world don’t understand, it is about money. Some entity or person has to “pay” for the invention, then get it to the market and that begs the question, what is the market?

In the US it is dominated by walmart thinking gun owners. Government purchases on the local and State level are very much the same as proven by glock’s dominance for a while, cheap cheap and cheaper. Innovative gun designs go no where in the us or in the EU unless private money pays for it or a Government end user. H&K survived for years on German federal duechmarks and did MAN making the MG-3, SIG Sauer leached on the swiss government for years as loss leader for the parent Swiss Industrial Group, FN even worse when you dig into that history, Steyr, the same. In the US not so much, hence companies die off or merge.
Look at SIG now that it is privately owned, off the Swiss dole, develop new handguns and rifles or die, same for H&K, develop or die. FN is under going the same, develop or die. Ruger continues to develop. When caseless ammunition comes about or new barrel technology hits the market soon, many changes will occur on how a weapon will look and function.

I understand what Mr. Stoner is stating, but I do believe the firearms industry has much more capacity and design intiative than 20 years ago. That is my story and I am sticking too it.


43 posted on 11/19/2010 3:37:48 PM PST by Article10 (Roger That)
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To: Brass Lamp

“This is just someone’s way of compensating HK for the loss of a couple of big contracts. This little project will allow the Germans to unload their unwanted 416 parts on us after all. “

Not true at all, SOCOM units have been using the 416 for at least 4 years. The system has been refined over that time and is a solid option against the M4. Both are fine platforms when maintained. All the 416’s on this contract will be made in the US under license. H&K is the master at setting up manufacturing anywhere in the world, that is what kept them open for years, H&k has it down to a science.
When you see an new HK 416 or HK 45, check the proof mark.


44 posted on 11/19/2010 3:48:37 PM PST by Article10 (Roger That)
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To: Brass Lamp

The production of AR-type rifles is booming. But not of new designs, and not on government contract(s).

Cranking out an existing design like the AR isn’t difficult, and it gets even easier if you have a wire EDM machine for a couple of the operations (eg, the mag well).


45 posted on 11/19/2010 6:53:18 PM PST by NVDave
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To: pissant

That really IS a wonderful read - thanks for directing me to that.

Concerning HK - Gotta say, I own a cheap G3 knock-off bought undocumented at a gun show a while back. Damnedest erogonomics I’ver ever seen. It’ll misfire equally well on ALL .308 ammo, unlike my SA M1A and my DSA FAL knock-off, which won’t hardly shoot the cheap surlus stuff at all, but do so-so on the primo stuff (after being sent back to the factory for a defective extractor and ejector, in that order).

So, the upshot is that the G3 knock-off is buried off-site with several cases of the shitty ammo as part of my back-up SHTF cache: I certainly hope it never gets to the point where I have to rely on it to stay alive! There’s also a buried old AK with several cases of ammo buried elsewhere as well, and that’ll be my first choice: less accurate, but reliable as hell. And the Ruskies traditionally have built better battle rifles than the Germans anyway.


46 posted on 11/19/2010 8:24:10 PM PST by dagogo redux (A whiff of primitive spirits in the air, harbingers of an impending descent into the feral.)
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To: MissyMack66

I say Pakistan. They have a cottage industry that Homebuilds Aks that hardly work.


47 posted on 11/19/2010 8:45:32 PM PST by Redcitizen (The Democrats got the Tea virus- they're zombies!)
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To: Article10
The M249 is entirely manufactured in Columbia SC by FN Mfg LLC. A small thing called the Berry Amendment makes that a reality.

You missed my point. FN Herstal is a Belgian company, even if they have a US-based subsidiary (FNH USA). Most foreign arms manufacturers have US-based subsidiaries. H&K has H&K USA, Glock has Glock USA, etc.

48 posted on 11/20/2010 3:45:47 PM PST by The Grammarian
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To: pissant
Why the hell are we buying kraut firearms?

Evidently it's to replace our Belgian firearms...though I think most of FN's stuff is made in North Carolina. But at least we're buying them. We stole the Mauser.

49 posted on 11/22/2010 11:08:03 AM PST by gundog (Help us, Nairobi-Wan Kenobi...you're our only hope.)
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To: ErnstStavroBlofeld

I don’t see the wisdom of replacing a belt fed automatic rifle with a magazine fed one. The idea is for the machine gunner to deny an area to the enemy, and that is hard to do with a mag-fed 5.56x45mm NATO piece of hardware. The SAW had its problems, but it could put alot of metal into an area in a short period of time. This IAR can’t do that.

But then, I thought the E model of the M-60 wasn’t too horrible. And the 7.62x51mm NATO turned cover into concealment pretty well. Never got to play with the M240.


50 posted on 11/22/2010 11:25:31 AM PST by ex 98C MI Dude (Alea Iacta Est)
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