Skip to comments.Marines Unsure of New Rifle Plan
Posted on 11/18/2010 11:16:23 PM PST by ErnstStavroBlofeld
Lt. Gen. George Flynn, who heads the Marine Corps Combat Development Command in Quantico, told reporters at a Washington, D.C. breakfast that the service plans to finish outfitting five battalions with the new M-27 Infantry Automatic Rifle next month and then will observe how those Marines use it on deployment before changing the organization, training, and tactics of infantry units around the new weapon.
But Flynn pushed back at critics of the M-27, saying the improved accuracy of the Heckler and Koch-made automatic rifle makes up for a lower rate of fire compared to the M-249 Squad Automatic Weapon it's being fielded to replace.
"The initial feedback was that the IAR performed pretty well," Flynn said of early evaluations of the M-27. "Accuracy has a suppressive power all by itself."
(Excerpt) Read more at military.com ...
Why the hell are we buying kraut firearms?
He’s certainly near the top of my list
Well, the Krauts make some good stuff, but we have a history of making some mighty fine firearms ourselves.
Tough to be an HK anything. They make superb firearms. I have a USP45 Tactical. Best automatic I own, though a little ‘big’.
It’s a ludicrous ‘replacement’ for the 249
We should make our own military rifles. This is beyond stupid.
The “outsourcing” of EVERYTHING has got to stop!
I agree. I do not like it at all.
The one you own is primo, however.
maybe because they make them better than us?
most likely it will be manufactured here under license to HK. We fielded the Krag because it beat anything we had.
When guns cease to be evil, we will design better ones. We
have the Barrett, the LWRC, etc..
Here’s an interesting vid clip on the IAR:
It kind of sounds like a modern equivalent of the BAR.
Because we’ve pissed away our manufacturing base. We no longer make much of the tooling required to make products like weapons...
Germany, however, still makes a lot of machine tooling.
Because we buy the best weapon whether it's American or not?
FWIW, the weapon it replaces, the M249 SAW? It's manufactured by FN Herstal, a Belgian arms company.
Well said General!
Actually, we now have more weapon manufacturers, especially of Stoner-patterned guns like this IAR, than we have ever had before. Raising demand in the face of import restrictions (try getting one of those dirt cheap Norinco AR15s) has created an environment in which every other machine shop is churning out their own receiver sets and bolt carriers groups. Anyone with even the most basic milling machine can purchase forged receiver blanks from suppliers like DSArms and produce serialized firearms faster than a custom wheel shop can turn out tire rims. Our domestic small arms industry is booming.
True enough but if that is your philosophy then why use the SAW at all. You can do the same thing with your standard issue weapon.
Reading down further
The Corps' adoption of the IAR has been fraught with controversy, with critics arguing the limited firepower of an M-27 -- which shoots a 30-round magazine -- would leave Marines vulnerable.
The replacement of the M-249 with the M27 does not make sense if you still consider the SAW a useful part of your combat strategy.
It has a lower rate of fire than the current SAW and the same mag capacity as the standard infantry weapon. So the M-27 can not produce the sustained fire of the current SAW and it can not produce the rate of fire of the current SAW.
The M-27 does not fit the strategy profile of a SAW. Basically they are simply issuing a second standard issue infantry weapon which makes no sense.
Accuracy for the SAW is secondary to the sustained suppressive fire it is there to produce. The 30 round mag and low rate of fire makes it inferior to the present weapon. If HK could field a new weapon with same rate of fire and a 200 round drum mag with improved accuracy I could get behind it.
IMO this new weapon is placing our Marines at increased risk. The SAW carrier job is to lay down suppressing fire while the squad maneuvers. In other word he is supposed to scare the SH!T out of the enemy. He cant perform that job as well if he has to change has to change magazines 6.5 times more often. I dont care how much more accurate the rifle is. It is pretty simple math.
Very shortly the rest of US weaponry will be made in India.
...we have a history of making some mighty fine firearms ourselves.
We have a history of making some fine things in general.
The key word in that statement being “history”!
Hardly. This class of weapon has been obsolete since about 1943 and this specimen is nowhere near being the best version of it. This is just someone's way of compensating HK for the loss of a couple of big contracts. This little project will allow the Germans to unload their unwanted 416 parts on us after all.
Notice the litter of brass around the SAW.
Sending huge amounts of high energy projectiles at the enemy is the primary purpose of the SAW.
It would take the M-27 more than 6.5 times as long as the M-249 to produce that pile of empty brass.
>>We fielded the Krag because it beat anything we had.<<
That certainly is damning with faint praise. The Krag may very well might have been the best for a very short time frame; but its cartridge left a lot to be desired, as it had little to no stopping power.
I own one for historical value only.
Indeed it does. If I were assaulting a hilltop position- I'd rather it be held by a platoon of spray and pray troops than a squad from the Marine Corps Rifle Team.
Marksmanship is the state religion of the Marine Corps. I was in during the M16A1 era. I badly wished we could have gone back to the M14.
Because our House and Senate have destroyed the firearms industry in the USA and enforce it via the BATFE.
The 1986 FOPA Law made it very difficult for small arms manufacturers to develop new weapons without onerous restrictions, penalties, and fines.
Meanwhile, other countries without these laws are free to do all the R&D they want.
You are so underwhelming with your ignorance of terminal ballistics. The Krag was replaced by the 1903 Springfield which was a much more robust design, less complicated to manufacture and could be loaded much more quickly via stripper clips. The .30-03 cartridge which replaced the .30 U.S. (.30-40 Krag) fired the same 220 grain round nose bullet at about the same velocity as the Krag which, of course, gave about the same terminal ballistics. The cartridge did not have the reach desired so was modified to become the .30-06 which fired 147-150 grain and 170 grain spire point bullets giving flatter trajectory and a greater effective range.
Until you shoot something with a Krag, hold your opinion in your pocket.
Currently FN makes like 60% of the samll arms for the US military.
Rule #1 when dealing the Ordinance Department:
Trust but verify.
This looks like one of those test that won’t work out for the manufacturer.
Thank you professor, for your lesson in ballistics. I did not realize that there was a doctor of ballistics among us. However, there are numerous US Army and USMC reports that it took multiple hits to stop Boxer and Filipino troops.
As for my opinion, I will express it - without your permission - as long as America is a free country. However, in the unlikely event that you are now dictator, I REFUSE.
Read his “about me” page. He wrote a very funny and interesting bio.
Way off skillet, the H&K 416 is made in the USA, check the proof marks when you can....
Wrong get a type 10 FLL and design on.
The M249 is entirely manufactured in Columbia SC by FN Mfg LLC. A small thing called the Berry Amendment makes that a reality.
If you don’t believe me, read the interview with Eugene Stoner (one of the designers behind the M16) and he will tell you the same thing I did.
You are free to express your opinion though when it is uneducated you come off looking foolish.
Stoner is only one man that was part of a design team 40 years ago, with his own opinion, there are many, many designs in the US that never see the light of day. Get a tour of KAC’s technical library someday or if you are lucky enough to visit a SOCOM weapons library.
Facts are for $2000.00 year get a type 10 and make anything you want and blast away. What most people in the consumer gun world don’t understand, it is about money. Some entity or person has to “pay” for the invention, then get it to the market and that begs the question, what is the market?
In the US it is dominated by walmart thinking gun owners. Government purchases on the local and State level are very much the same as proven by glock’s dominance for a while, cheap cheap and cheaper. Innovative gun designs go no where in the us or in the EU unless private money pays for it or a Government end user. H&K survived for years on German federal duechmarks and did MAN making the MG-3, SIG Sauer leached on the swiss government for years as loss leader for the parent Swiss Industrial Group, FN even worse when you dig into that history, Steyr, the same. In the US not so much, hence companies die off or merge.
Look at SIG now that it is privately owned, off the Swiss dole, develop new handguns and rifles or die, same for H&K, develop or die. FN is under going the same, develop or die. Ruger continues to develop. When caseless ammunition comes about or new barrel technology hits the market soon, many changes will occur on how a weapon will look and function.
I understand what Mr. Stoner is stating, but I do believe the firearms industry has much more capacity and design intiative than 20 years ago. That is my story and I am sticking too it.
“This is just someone’s way of compensating HK for the loss of a couple of big contracts. This little project will allow the Germans to unload their unwanted 416 parts on us after all. “
Not true at all, SOCOM units have been using the 416 for at least 4 years. The system has been refined over that time and is a solid option against the M4. Both are fine platforms when maintained. All the 416’s on this contract will be made in the US under license. H&K is the master at setting up manufacturing anywhere in the world, that is what kept them open for years, H&k has it down to a science.
When you see an new HK 416 or HK 45, check the proof mark.
The production of AR-type rifles is booming. But not of new designs, and not on government contract(s).
Cranking out an existing design like the AR isn’t difficult, and it gets even easier if you have a wire EDM machine for a couple of the operations (eg, the mag well).
That really IS a wonderful read - thanks for directing me to that.
Concerning HK - Gotta say, I own a cheap G3 knock-off bought undocumented at a gun show a while back. Damnedest erogonomics I’ver ever seen. It’ll misfire equally well on ALL .308 ammo, unlike my SA M1A and my DSA FAL knock-off, which won’t hardly shoot the cheap surlus stuff at all, but do so-so on the primo stuff (after being sent back to the factory for a defective extractor and ejector, in that order).
So, the upshot is that the G3 knock-off is buried off-site with several cases of the shitty ammo as part of my back-up SHTF cache: I certainly hope it never gets to the point where I have to rely on it to stay alive! There’s also a buried old AK with several cases of ammo buried elsewhere as well, and that’ll be my first choice: less accurate, but reliable as hell. And the Ruskies traditionally have built better battle rifles than the Germans anyway.
I say Pakistan. They have a cottage industry that Homebuilds Aks that hardly work.
You missed my point. FN Herstal is a Belgian company, even if they have a US-based subsidiary (FNH USA). Most foreign arms manufacturers have US-based subsidiaries. H&K has H&K USA, Glock has Glock USA, etc.
Evidently it's to replace our Belgian firearms...though I think most of FN's stuff is made in North Carolina. But at least we're buying them. We stole the Mauser.
I don’t see the wisdom of replacing a belt fed automatic rifle with a magazine fed one. The idea is for the machine gunner to deny an area to the enemy, and that is hard to do with a mag-fed 5.56x45mm NATO piece of hardware. The SAW had its problems, but it could put alot of metal into an area in a short period of time. This IAR can’t do that.
But then, I thought the E model of the M-60 wasn’t too horrible. And the 7.62x51mm NATO turned cover into concealment pretty well. Never got to play with the M240.