Skip to comments.L.A. contrail a missile launch? Retired general thinks so (op-ed)
Posted on 11/21/2010 11:31:21 PM PST by TigersEye
Sliding silently under the mud, muck and fog of national politics, is a current event that makes Bill Clintons excursion into the world of elderly sex look tame in comparison. This time the nations national security is truly threatened in my opinion, and it involves not only a weak president with limited problem-solving ability, but leadership at the highest levels in the Pentagon as well. The American people would do well to demand a full investigation by an unbiased group, and let the chips fall where they may.
I am referring to the missile shot taken off the California coast recently, and the lame response by NORAD, the Pentagon and the White House itself.
In my opinion, there is absolutely no doubt that what was captured on video off the coast of California was a missile launch, was clearly observed by NORAD, assessed by a four-star general within minutes, and passed to the president immediately. That is the way the system works, and heads fall if there is a failure. This is one of the most important tenets of national defense and its sole purpose of protecting the American people. Even the smallest failure in this system gets intense scrutiny at the highest level.
Now, the question that still must be answered is why NORADs muted response was simply that North America was not threatened, and later our government approved the lame excuse that the picture recorded was simply an aircraft leaving a contrail. This decision was made far above the four-star level, and because the system in place demands it, was made by the president himself.
(More at link)
(Excerpt) Read more at dailyinterlake.com ...
"Is there any other kind?"
Well, there are video stills, but they are generally inferior to camera stills -- especially in resolution -- and especially this video. Not only was Levyas' video shot from a moving platform with long, uncalibrated zooms, he added a "2X extender", which only provides "empty" magnification and further degrades the already low resolution image.
I must disagree with Finny's
"Yet they will watch as you throw still photo after still photo after still photo at us asking us to compare them to the original video, when common sense tells ANYONE that a video of a moving event, such as an airplane leaving a contrail or a missile leaving a plume, is going to convey more information than a still photo of a moving event."
Each medium has its advantages. Stills can provide much higher resolution and have "metadata" indicating details like time and focal length, Having multiple (still or video) recordings of the same event allow triangulation of viewpoints and such necessities as bearings to the point of sunset. But, I must agree: unrelated "examples ad infinitum" do tend to become wearisome...
A new, wide angle still photo taken from Hermosa Beach (north of both Levyas & Warren) shows the "sunset arch" and indicates the bearing to sunset. (Reducing brightness of the image makes the "arch" much more visible.)
The "missile plume" is at left, and there are other contrails also visible. The sunset point is at the midpoint of the white high altitude cloud (or horizontal contrail). This reveals that the sun's position is much farther to the north than one would guess from the video -- so the contrail is lit as much from the side as it is from beneath. This latest photo was taken with a 20mm (extra wide angle) lens, whereas even Warren's stills were taken at focal lengths of 210mm to 300mm.
The helicopter was obviously south of the contrail much of the time. Having multiple viewpoints up and down the coast is definitely beneficial -- if you are seeking understanding.
Of course, this new viewpoint makes interpretation of the contrail as a missile headed offshore much more difficult..
I haven’t looked yet, but let me guess: The missile crowd says this Hermosa photo is “an obvious fake,” right?
So that "given" is taken away. I have no idea what the vehicle is in these photos, nor does anyone else. But I CAN tell the direction of the sun hitting the contrail or plume, and so can anyone looking at them. Sorry, I'm not going to play "ID the Photo" with you. Is the sun in the west, or the east? How much of the half-side of the plume that I can see is it illuminating? And HOW LONG HAS THE TRAIL BEEN THERE? See, that's where video means something and still shots go out the window.
So the exercise is futile and a distraction from the case in point: Leyvas' video. When it comes to judging contrails or missiles, as in proof that what we see in a "trust me" still photo is what it is claimed to be, YOU NEED VIDEO.
You expect the World to take you at your word that the photos you show are what you say they are. How on earth do I not know that you slipped an extra in there just for grins? But look at them and think, for heaven's sale! The brightest side is facing the direction of the light; the darkest faces the other way.
It sure would be nice to know whether what looks like shadow on the bottom of a brightly lit surface, is just a degenerated contrail that's been there for the past 30 minutes 5 miles high, or the solid darkness of a plume? Except ... there's sunlight on either side of it, from below, so it's probably degenerated in to a concave underside contrail. You can't tell because it's a still shot taken from a long distance.
It gets worse: Chicom SLBM’s launched just such a salvo (3 missiles) from the Mississippi River sometime on Saturday (I saw the remains of the three vertical rocket plumes) and one from Lake Michigan on Tuesday afternoon. I saw that one arcing over my house close to sunset; it even had the “telltale rocket” corkscrew and I saw some flame...definitely a Chinese SLBM.
That is how conspiracy theorists operate. When they have no proof for their argument, they deny the proof by saying its faked (without, of course, proving that its faked). Its soooo easy to be a conspiracy theorist, you never ever have to prove your point, instead, you can demand that the normal people disprove your silly theory.
You were 2 minutes and 21 seconds premature.
And, again, the missile crowd has zero proof, no data, nothing other than “gee that looks like a missile”
But..it must be a conspiracy that no one takes the missile folk seriously anymore.
Except in this case, the video makes it even more obvious that what occurred off the coast of California had NOTHING to do with a missile. The video reveals the relative motion of the object making the trail, and clearly reveals how slowly it is moving. Any missile still burning fuel is accelerating. Rapidly. As a rough gauge, the space shuttle accelerates from 0 to 17,000mph in about 8 minutes and reaches low Earth orbit during that time. It reaches 150,000ft in just the first 2 minutes. Smaller rockets accelerate at an even faster rate.
So compare that to the Leyvas video. What is depicted in that video is nothing like a missile in flight. In fact, if a person was hoping to convince someone that a the video showed a missile in flight, they would be far better off showing stills from the video. And even then, only stills that didn't give the viewer the opportunity to view the whole trail or an indication of how long the object had been in flight.
For shame! They do also have 14 seconds of time-scrambled, low-resolution video at unknown magnifications, viewpoint and timing -- that CBS lied about! (And a few Generals who were suckered into calling it a "missile".)
And, although they don't really know the spatial relationship of the sun to the "plume" -- they have shadows...
...and the sad burden of mistrusting the honesty and motives of FReepers who have otherwise proven to be reliable conservative patriots...,
So, don't be so hard on 'em, FRiend...
Happy, blest and safe Thanksgiving, all!
The first time you did it, I called you on it and pointed out that you were making an invalid comparison:
"Also, use your (appropriate adjective) powers of observation and notice that the two photos you posted were at two different zoom magnifications. Think that might affect your conclusions?"
Well, apparently "getting a clue" doesn't help you -- because you posted -- verbatim -- that same entire WRONG post (at least) twice more -- including this one.
Here are the two frames - carefully superimposed. Of course, I had to magnify the second photo (taken with 210mm focal length) ~154% to make it match the first one (taken at 300mm focal length.)
Still think that's "comical CGI"? (And it was composited from the raw Warren files -- by me, TXnMA -- not by your so-called, "silly" contrailscience.com website.)
Still want to stand by your (triply-repeated) statement (for which I retired my Texan description):
"Those two photos are clearly NOT taken from the same location OR the clouds moved quite a bit from one shot to the next."
??? Well, do you????
Are you familiar with the term, "mental laziness"?
What I love most about those pics is they show the plane flying sideways faster than it moves forward. Really cool!!!
Which only highlights your ignorance of the well-known relative angular velocity compression/expansion effects of long lenses. If I feel like it tomorrow, I may look up an explanatory post I made for another FReeper and point you to it.
Any experienced photographer would find your comment laughable...
Perhaps in about a year's time, FR should allow former Missileers to quitely delete their embarassing posts on the matter.
Yeah, the silence of the responses to all the challenges I posted last night is deafening. The MSM dupes/shills are running short on arguments... ;-)
“spin stabilized missile.”
Which missile is that exactly? I think you are confusing bullets with missiles.
“Anyone who knows anything about these matters “
Which obviously isn’t you. I’ve never seen a missile hang out for 10 minutes before and I’ve launched far more missiles than you’ve had birthdays. In 10 minutes any sub launched missile is long gone and over the horizon, not hanging out for paparazzi.
You show up how many days after the thread is essentially dead to toss out that tidbit? Really? LOL. Guess the General is an idiot, too, eh? Again, LOL...
How many retired USAF generals are there in the USA?
Hundreds? A thousand?
How many besides this elderly gentleman have come out in support of the "secret missile from secret submarine operated by secret enemy flying to secret destination for secret reason" theory?
Really? Why are you two revisiting this dead thread and piling on? It’s kind of silly. I may have overstated, but I’m not being “conspiracy nuts” thinking that might have been a missile.
BTW, I’ll appeal to authority again: OldMissileer, who has more personal knowledge about missiles than you, me, and that other commenter combined, timely corrected some of my mistakes. However, he apparently hasn’t come to a conclusion. My take is that there is a chance it was a missile. (My guess is if it was a missile, it was a jihadi’s slow junk scud style missile shot from a cargo container that went way off course, as those are wont to do.)
That said, your timing, dismissiveness, and condescension are amusing. Your decision to revisit this dead thread is weird.
PS Copied you OldMissileer because I mentioned you. Know you’re sick of this debate, but wanted to abide by the posting customs.
PPS Contrails and missile exhaust do last a while. That said, “10 minutes” is pure hyperbole.
Oh, there aren’t two of you, just you. My bad.
Gonna watch Wisc cream NW now (dang). Have fun on the dead thread.
Former Assistant Director at NORAD, General Jim Cash says “there is absolutely no doubt that what was captured on video off the coast of California was a missile launch !!!”!”
I keep getting pinged back to it, Dograbbit.
There used to be a guy in town that lived under bridges that talked like that. He finally started taking his meds.
“Guess the General is an idiot, too, eh?”
Being a General doesn’t make one right. But, I guess since you want to be a drama queen and sound the alarm that someone fired a missle, go ahead, even though that optical illusion violates the laws of physics and known missile performance. You just go ahead and be feeble minded enough to believe your lying eyes because your brain doesn’t know the difference.
In other words, C-Toad must assume an IMMENSE amount of stupidity, kookiness, incompetence, and feeble-mindedness on the part of a wide range of people with either or both professional and empirical experience of the phenomenon in question. He MUST make that assumption in order to believe what he needs to believe.
Meanwhile, speaking for myself, I know perfectly well that FReepers like C Toad and Aruanan are as sane, smart, competent, and intelligent as me or any other long-time established FReeper. I do not, and never have, accused FReepers who fall for the airplane cover story as being "feeble-minded," and never will. I DO accuse them of being either frightened OR arrogant, overrating their own skills, and flattering themselves (or allowing themselves to be flattered) that they are "smarter" and "calmer" than people who've actually had quite a lot of empirical experience in comparable events at the location AND with the phenomenon in the Leyvas' video, as well as genuine airline contrails in the same location.
“But, I guess since you want to be a drama queen.”
Look in the mirror, bub. LOL.
I’m not the one yelling “Missile!” when I haven’t clue what I am talking about, you are.
Um, thanks. I think.
Did overstate - as I’ve admitted several times - in my first post. Got sat down for it. But I maintain this *might* have been a missile shot, prob a low tech spin-stabilized scud type if it was. Apparently that makes me a conspiracy theory nutjob. Oh well. I also support Palin, DeMint, Bachmann, and Lt. Col. West, so I’m used to the charge. LOL.
PS And thanks for cc’ing me on the comment.
You and your General still haven’t backed up your bullsh*t story about “spin stabilized missiles” by naming an SLBM that does that nor have you stated a single missile that can hang out for ten minutes like that airplane did making that contrail. Go ahead, smarty, we’ll wait.
Ya read much? I don’t buy the SLBM idea. Made that clear. Look at the FROG-7A or the like, fired from a cargo container.
LOL, and hasn't been heard from since. Below is the last known photo of him taken after he made his comments...
The entire time of flight of a Frog or the like missile is less than 5 minutes from launch to impact and they fly a ballistic arc.
Instead of trying to understand what I said, you compare me to a homeless guy. Is that the best you can do? Remember that term, "mental laziness"? Feel a fit coming on?
No wonder the first word to describe your rants popped up from my Texian Lexicon -- it still fits. And you still need to go back and see who started that discussion -- before I do it publicly for you...
His problem wasn’t the homelessness he was a schizophrenic.
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