Posted on 12/07/2010 8:13:52 AM PST by lbryce
FDR's Address to The Nation in the aftermath of the sneak attack by the Imperial Forces of Japan on our naval base at Pearl Harbor that brought the United States into World War 2
(Excerpt) Read more at youtube.com ...
Well, some of the smart ones realized that there was going to be a rifle behind every blade of grass if they did get the itch to invade the mainland...
That would have been really ugly...
One has to wonder if those that were responsible for Pearl Harbor had any idea that their actions would lead to two of their major cities vanishing from the face of the Earth in an instant, only a few short years later. Back then, such a thing was unthinkable. Even to us at the time, it was unthinkable.
That was back when ‘America’ was ‘America’. We peaked when we landed on the Moon, and it has all been downhill ever since..... So sad.
“War footing” is one thing. It is not the same as “you are cleared to attack any japanese shipping encountered”...direct orders from ComSubPac, a week prior to any declaration of war and a supposed “surprise” attack.
To his dying day, my conservative father said FDR, and his lying pal Churchill deliberately “set us up”. Until the later declassifications proved him right, his opinion was unpopular. Set us up for a war, to answer FDR's piss poor continued domestic policy destruction of the US economy and perpetuation of the Depression. Answer: get rid of the potential workers out of work by sending them off to war. In much the same way this moron obama and his elitist democrat pals would love to destroy the US and substitute their statist dictatorship.
FDR even lost the peace for US (Tehran and Yalta compromised by Stalin's spies)in the world, after the loss of so many brave service people. And Churchill abandoned the Poles- the very reason they went to war, imagine that. Poles don't have to imagine it.
As stated in his Biography at Wikipedia;
.....Irving's reputation as an historian was widely discredited......
Sorry, but the information as you've made reference to has no credibility as far as Irving's authorship as writer, historian is concerned.
Wikipedia:David Irving
Irving's reputation as an historian was widely discredited after he brought an unsuccessful libel case against the American historian Deborah Lipstadt and Penguin Books in 1996.[3] The court found that Irving was an active Holocaust denier, antisemite, and racist, who "associates with right-wing extremists who promote neo-Nazism,"[4] and that he had "for his own ideological reasons persistently and deliberately misrepresented and manipulated historical evidence."
You are forgeting that the Japanese refused to negotiate giving up territory they conquered in their war on China, much less their initial seizure of Manchuria. The only thing they wanted to negotiate was American acceptance of Japanese control of China. Not moderate at all.
A question might be why did countries that were free before WWII end up behind the Iron Curtain afterwards. Or, as communists became major elements of Western Europes governments (e.g., France), ... Or, just who won WWII?
The USSR, which was allied to Nazi Germany for 2 years was a victor. (People forget that French communists sabotraged French mobilization.) Had the UK and France taken out Hitler in 1936, this wouldn't have happened.
And, the Brits bombed the Germans cities first.
Your Nazi apologetics are pathetic. Perhaps you forgot or don't care about those dirty Slavs and Jews in Warsaw,
The simple fact is taht the US government was full of competing bureaucracies, inaccurate and incomplete information and disinformation. And even when it knew what was comming, the US military was just pathetic in December 1941. The US Army Air Corps in the Philippines was decimated 12 hours after Pearl Harbor because of gross incompetence in planning and implimentation of war plans. Heck the defense at PEarl Harbor was a joke. Putting aside the radar sighting that was dismissed by a second lieutenant (stupidity not conspiracy), the Naval chain of command ignore the USS Ward sinking a Jap sub. Either Admiral Kimmel was victim or incompetent, but the conspiracy brakes down when they claim both.
And to allow an attack on Pearl would have been lunacy. A third strike would have taken out the fuel depot, submarine center, and repair facilities. Had Admiral Nagumo kept his nerve, the US Pacific fleet would have been knocked out for months longer. There would have been no Midway or Guadalcanal.
The gospel according to Joseph Kennedy. The corrupt machine politician, booze runner, and Nazi apologist.
Clearly, the Brits meant to loose Singapore, as well as the HMS Prince of Wales and Repulse. Perfect knowledge and outcome proves intent. Speaking of which, clearly the Japanese conspired to lose the war.
It stands to reason that a Nazi sympathizer and Holocaust denier like David Irving would want to defame Churchill.
For a smaller volume with a grander overview having several veins, there is: America's Second Crusade by Chamberlin. "Road to War: Atlantic," "Road to War: Pacific," "Poland, The Betrayal," ..., "Crusade in Retrospect" are some of the chapters, from this a book published in 1950.
An example, Chamberlin quotes from Marshall's Report on the Winning of the War in Europe and the Pacific (pages 340-341) as:
"No evidence has yet been found that the German High Command had any over-all strategic plan ... Not only were the European partners of the Axis unable to coordinate their plans and resources and agree within their own nations how best to proceed, but the eastern partner, Japan, was working in even greater discord. The Axis as a matter of fact, existed on paper only."
And, "Wikipedia" - who?
But, back to Irving - his Chapter Ten "Gaps in the Archives" might be worth a scan. Comments, for example, on Stimson Diaries (Beinecke Library, Yale University) are spot on.
Of course we wouldn't have "sued for peace". But in the scenario that you describe, the allies would have had no offensive power in the Pacific until at earliest spring 1943. There would have been no Coral Sea, no Midway, no Guadalcanal, no successful drive up through the Solomons. The strategic calculus in the Pacific would nave been totally different, and the decision to engage the enemy that much more complex and difficult, which is what the Japanese were counting on.
I'm not saying that they would have won. But they thought they could, and that was enough.
Really? You need to cite your references, then. We knew that the Japanese Carrier Strike Force was at sea and had been since Nov 26, but that isn't equivalent to knowing its position or its target.
They were shortsighted. The Roosevelt Administration had a chance to avoid the whole thing.
If our carriers were in port on that day, Japan may have won.
Just a few items:
(A) The Ranneft's comments/Oggs' Interview/SS LURLINE, the timing and topic are very similar. Also documents, such as SS LURLINE's radio log are gone.
(B) PHA Part 35, page 77 (Bottom of page, 29Nov41 COMM SUMMARY, "The HIYEI (sic old spelling) sent one message to Chief of Staff Third Fleet.", PHA 35, page 78, 30Nov41 COMM Summary, "The only tactical circuit heard today was one with AKAGI and several MARUs." In each instance, for HIYEI and AKAGI, FOIA requests for detailed information regarding those statements have been on-going now for decades - all denied so far.
(C) From NSA historian Parker and USN Pelletier, the IJN code movement reports were readable prior to the time of the Pearl Harbor attack. For example, PHA Part 35, page 78 " ... made a movement report but direction not given." 28Dec41 Station H Movement Reports, the FOIA copy from 2000, makes mention of a Sheet No. 94644 for Callsign RU SI 8. FOIA requests for that document continue wanting.
(D) From the US Navy's Pacific RDF Network, the gaps in the radio logs display an interesting pattern of just what is missing, mulitated, ...
Perhaps the question might better be, especially given (A) why a FLASH IMMEDIATE was not sent to CinC Pacific Fleet "Unidentified radio signals NW of Pearl moving eastward. Investigate and report.
Also, source B reference the Strike Force's transmissions on and prior to 11/30. I'm at work and relying on memory, but as I recall the Japanese Tabular Record Of Movement the Strike Force made a feinting maneuver to the S-SE that terminated on or about Dec 1 before turning hard NE toward Hawaii and adopting strict radio silence, which was not broken until the morning of Dec 7. During that time there were no fleet transmissions, coded or otherwise. Even assuming we had a hard fix on the Japanese 11/30 position and heading, it would have been at best an inconclusive data point.
By these lights radio silence is a myth. Any "data" post 26Nov41, American date of sortie, is fair game.
The Station H Movement Report (FOIA result) - Callsign RI SU 8 has a hand-written annotation "FAF using AKAGI xtmr".
Again, irrespective of various bearing cuts, enough was known to issue that FLASH IMMEDIATE. That did not happen.
Why?
According to various authoritative sources, crystals were removed from Kido Butai’s radio sets prior to sailing in late November. Broadcasting was therefore impossible.
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