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China's new stealth fighter may use US technology
Associated Press ^ | 01/23/2011 | SLOBODAN LEKIC & DUSAN STOJANOVIC

Posted on 01/23/2011 5:02:45 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki

China's new stealth fighter may use US technology

SLOBODAN LEKIC and DUSAN STOJANOVIC, Associated Press

BRUSSELS – Chinese officials recently unveiled a new, high-tech stealth fighter that could pose a significant threat to American air superiority — and some of its technology, it turns out, may well have come from the U.S. itself.

Balkan military officials and other experts have told The Associated Press that in all probability the Chinese gleaned some of their technological know-how from an American F-117 Nighthawk that was shot down over Serbia in 1999.

Nighthawks were the world's first stealth fighters, planes that were very hard for radar to detect. But on March 27, 1999, during NATO's aerial bombing of Serbia in the Kosovo war, a Serbian anti-aircraft missile shot one of the Nighthawks down. The pilot ejected and was rescued.

It was the first time one of the much-touted "invisible" fighters had ever been hit. The Pentagon believed a combination of clever tactics and sheer luck had allowed a Soviet-built SA-3 missile to bring down the jet.

The wreckage was strewn over a wide area of flat farmlands, and civilians collected the parts — some the size of small cars — as souvenirs.

"At the time, our intelligence reports told of Chinese agents crisscrossing the region where the F-117 disintegrated, buying up parts of the plane from local farmers," says Adm. Davor Domazet-Loso, Croatia's military chief of staff during the Kosovo war.

"We believe the Chinese used those materials to gain an insight into secret stealth technologies ... and to reverse-engineer them," Domazet-Loso said in a telephone interview.

A senior Serbian military official

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aerospace; balkans; china; f117; kosovo; serbia Comment #1 Removed by Moderator

To: sukhoi-30mki

Clinton failed to bomb the wreckage. A gift to his socialist handlers.


2 posted on 01/23/2011 5:04:47 AM PST by omega4179 (Loughner--influenced by left wing hate media!)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

They probably have such advanced access to our ‘secrets’ that they don’t need to study plane wreckage.


3 posted on 01/23/2011 5:05:25 AM PST by pieceofthepuzzle
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To: sukhoi-30mki

I was going to ping you on this, but you beat my post by one minute.


4 posted on 01/23/2011 5:05:38 AM PST by edpc (It's Kräusened)
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To: pieceofthepuzzle

They had a senior engineer on the B2 program.


5 posted on 01/23/2011 5:12:05 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: pieceofthepuzzle

um I dont believe so. I think I remember we “Accidentally” bombed the chinese embassy in serbia about a week or so later. Rumor was they had this stealth fighter stored there and we took care of it then.


6 posted on 01/23/2011 5:15:59 AM PST by Walkingfeather
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To: omega4179
Clinton failed to bomb the wreckage. A gift to his socialist handlers.

That bears repeating. I remember it distinctly. Disgusting, along with his gift of space technology through Loral to the Chinese.

7 posted on 01/23/2011 5:16:01 AM PST by JohnG45
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To: Walkingfeather
Possibly. The F-117 was shot down in March of 1999. The embassy was hit in May.

Hard to imagine Clinton giving that order, though.

8 posted on 01/23/2011 5:21:59 AM PST by edpc (It's Kräusened)
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To: driftdiver

The new “Slick Willy” fighter was sold for campaign bucks back in the 90’s. Democrats trying to level the battlefield.


9 posted on 01/23/2011 5:24:09 AM PST by screaminsunshine (Surfers Rule)
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To: omega4179

The F-117 is also where the Russians got the stealth technology for the SU-50 Firefox fighter.


10 posted on 01/23/2011 5:26:08 AM PST by Thunder90 (Fighting for truth and the American way... http://citizensfortruthandtheamericanway.blogspot.com/)
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To: driftdiver
They had a senior engineer on the B2 program.

More likely one in Lockheed on the CALF project. The similarities between the CALF demonstrator and the "J-20" (with the exception of the lift fan) are striking:






11 posted on 01/23/2011 5:28:42 AM PST by tanknetter
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To: edpc

I dont think he gave that order. I wasnt there though.


12 posted on 01/23/2011 5:37:51 AM PST by Walkingfeather
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To: omega4179
Clinton failed to bomb the wreckage. A gift to his socialist handlers.

Probably not that much of a gift. The F-117 was very early Stealth technology, based on heavy use of faceting and 1970s/80s-era RAM (radar absorbent material). The "J-20" looks nothing like the F-117 (it looks almost exactly like the CALF demonstrator, see above), and if it uses reverse-engineered RAM technology the US is already at least 2-3 generations beyond that.

IIRC the most "complete" section of the shot-down F-117 was the canopy, which contained RAM-impregnated (gold-based) transparencies to limit the return from the pilot's head/helmet. But again, the F-117 canopy was designed with highly faceted-stealth, NOT what the US is currently using or what can be observed in the "J-20".

My conclusion would be that there was very limited tech transfer from the lost F-117. The tech that WAS transferred is now obsolete, and the US KNOWS how to counter it. The "J-20" may contain some of that tech (specifically the 70s/80s-era RAM, but not the heavy faceting) and this may explain the apparent fact that some F-117s are still flying out of Tonopah in a "Red Force" (oppositional training) capacity.
13 posted on 01/23/2011 5:42:08 AM PST by tanknetter
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To: omega4179
I criticized them at the time, on this forum, for not bombing the wreckage. It does sound like the wreckage was strewn over too wide an area to have made that practical.

During World War II, the U.S. had anti personnel artillery shells with radar fuses, that would blow up a precise altitude over the heads of exposed infantry. They were not used because of fears that if they fell into German hands they would be reversed engineered and turned against us. (The Panzerfaust was a reverse-engineered -and much improved- bazooka.) During the Battle of the Bulge, they were released for use, with devastating effect on the unprepared Germans. Some German infantry units mutinied, refusing to attack after they had witnessed the effect.

That's the lesson of the Balkan War. We lost a key technological advantage in a conflict with absolutely no strategic value to the United States.

14 posted on 01/23/2011 5:48:10 AM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (Socialists are to economics what circle squarers are to math; undaunted by reason or derision.)
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To: All

You can just imagine the bed-wetter Free Trade Commies now....”See, China is using American stuff...”

I guess with all the American wealth redistributed to Communist China via Free Trade....the Communist Chinese were eventually going to use some American parts for their military...


15 posted on 01/23/2011 6:04:58 AM PST by UCFRoadWarrior (NAFTA, WTO, UN, IMF, USAID, World Bank, are all Statist organizations)
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To: tanknetter


16 posted on 01/23/2011 6:07:49 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: tanknetter
Classified Security Fail
17 posted on 01/23/2011 6:08:21 AM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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do I really have to say it???

18 posted on 01/23/2011 6:13:32 AM PST by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: UCFRoadWarrior
With General Electric's help, it won't be long before they are flying the J-20 with GE engines.
19 posted on 01/23/2011 6:18:03 AM PST by Colorado Doug (Now I know how the Indians felt to be sold out for a few beads and trinkets)
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To: AdmSmith; Arthur Wildfire! March; Berosus; bigheadfred; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; Delacon; ...
...the Chinese gleaned some of their technological know-how from an American F-117 Nighthawk that was shot down over Serbia in 1999...

20 posted on 01/23/2011 6:32:59 AM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: mvpel

Form follows function, and there are only so many engineering solutions to stealth requirements. The F-117 is old, obsolete stealth technology, and everyone knows it. Which is why the “current” (or immediate past) generation(s) of stealth shaping (F-22, YF-23, PAK-FA/T-50, F-35, CALF, “J-20”) bear significant similarities to one another.

The “J-20” looks exactly like the CALF, just scaled up. The PAK-FA/T-50 looks like a hybridization of F-22, F-35, YF-23 and Su-27 engineering.


21 posted on 01/23/2011 6:37:11 AM PST by tanknetter
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To: Colorado Doug

if they use our tech we have a much better chance of countering it.


22 posted on 01/23/2011 6:43:13 AM PST by utherdoul
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To: omega4179

Oh, so this is how they’re going to package it. Clintoon in consort with his buddy BERNIE SCHWARTZ of the Loral Corp. SOLD our missile guidance system components (amongst other things) to the Chicoms. But we idiots out here in middle America are to dumb...


23 posted on 01/23/2011 7:14:52 AM PST by clyde260 (Public Enemy #1: Network News!)
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To: omega4179

We have to be the dumbest nation on Earth.


24 posted on 01/23/2011 7:29:56 AM PST by Rappini
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To: Walkingfeather

um I dont believe so. I think I remember we “Accidentally” bombed the chinese embassy in serbia about a week or so later. Rumor was they had this stealth fighter stored there and we took care of it then.”


Holy cow, I think you got something here! The ‘we got the map wrong’ never convinced me so this makes a lot of sense. And CIA, no doubt, had many spies in Serbia back then to know about the Chinese.


25 posted on 01/23/2011 7:31:30 AM PST by mewykwistmas ("Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge even where there is no river. ")
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To: omega4179

Thanks a LOT, Mr. Clinton! Your many DIRECT technology transfers to the Red Chinese weren’t ENOUGH, apparently.


26 posted on 01/23/2011 7:54:19 AM PST by 2harddrive
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To: tanknetter
Sure, form follows function, but don't kid yourself into thinking that espionage was not a key and fundamental part of the J-20 development program.

(CBS) "60 Minutes" has obtained an FBI videotape showing a Defense Department employee selling secrets to a Chinese spy for cash. The video, which has never been made public before, offers a rare glimpse into the secretive world of espionage and illustrates how China’s spying may now pose the biggest espionage threat to the U.S.

China may be the number-one espionage threat now. "The Chinese are the biggest problem we have with respect to the level of effort that they’re devoting against us, versus the level of attention we are giving to them," says Michelle Van Cleave, once America’s top counter-intelligence officer who coordinated the hunt for foreign spies from 2003 to 2006.


27 posted on 01/23/2011 8:05:10 AM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: Rappini
We have to be the dumbest nation on Earth.

Not only did we sell them the rope. We showed them how to make the rope more inexpensively, then turned around and paid them for the rope with which they are hanging us.

The Chinese send a bill to the family for the bullet they use to execute people. Americans are paying the bill for the Chinese bullets up front.

Hey, but don't bring up the notion of "fair trade" with the Communists or you'll be called a Communist.

28 posted on 01/23/2011 8:14:48 AM PST by InternetTuffGuy
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To: mewykwistmas

yeah dropped off the news media radar quickly if I remember correctly. This was a while a go but I seem to remember the bomb hitting the left side of the embassy, (like the parking garage) which would make sense when you think about storing a car size fuselage. But I may be remembering wrong.


29 posted on 01/23/2011 8:29:37 AM PST by Walkingfeather
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To: tanknetter

I was in the Navy during the early 1980s. Having relatives living in communist countries prevented anyone from a Top Secret Clearance. Why? Because of blackmail.

It happens all the time with folks who have relatives still living in China.

The solution is do not hire ANYONE with living relatives in China.

A very simple solution scowled upon by elites, particularly in the engineering and science fields.


30 posted on 01/23/2011 10:29:28 AM PST by SatinDoll (NO FOREIGN NATIONALS AS OUR PRESIDENT!)
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To: mvpel

So our secrets go for a few thousand now? A few public and well publicized executions might help


31 posted on 01/23/2011 10:50:25 AM PST by mewykwistmas ("Politicians are the same all over. They promise to build a bridge even where there is no river. ")
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