Posted on 03/17/2011 7:36:29 PM PDT by Zhang Fei
I think Hillary’s recent comments say it all. (1) Ground support will be required with a no fly zone. (2) She’s done in 2012.
Just because someone is an underdog doesn't mean he's a good guy. The rebels are led by former Gaddafi enforcers. The demonstrations that sparked off the rebellion were organized by relatives of Islamists who were killed during a prison revolt where they killed 200 prison guards in 1996. They were in prison because they had organized an assassination attempt against Gaddafi that same year. Gaddafi is a secular guy like Saddam. However, if you look at news accounts over the past decade, you'll see that the vast majority of Libyan women have taken to wearing a truncated version of the burka. Now, if 9/11 hadn't happened, I'd brush this off as just another eccentric religious affectation. But 9/11 did happen, and this kind of display really sets off the klaxons.
I think fawning media accounts of the rebels are more your speed. Che Guevara is smiling...
It seems to me that to justify assisting them, you'd want to be sure that they are better for our interests than Gaddafi would be. Rubin Reports on democracy's record in the Middle Eastern states:
Remember the Iranian revolution (in 1979) when all sorts of people poured out into the streets to demand freedom? Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is now president.Remember the Beirut spring when people poured out into the streets to demand freedom? Hizballah is now running Lebanon.
Remember the Palestinians having free elections? Hamas is now running the Gaza Strip.
Remember democracy in Algeria? Tens of thousands of people were killed in the ensuing civil war.
It doesn't have to be that way but precedents are pretty daunting.
What did Egyptians tell the Pew poll recently when asked whether they liked "modernizers" or "Islamists"? Islamists: 59%; Modernizers: 27%. Now maybe they will vote for a Westernized guy in a suit who promises a liberal democracy but do you want to bet the Middle East on it?
As pointless as further interaction with you. Good night.
I agree.
And the more muzzies, arabs and islamists who kill each other, the better. I don’t want to lift a finger to save either side.
We’ve got an islamist in the White Cave. It’s not rocket science to see what he’s up to.
Because it makes historical, sociological and political sense.
Are you familiar with the histories of revolutions and Islam?
Of course the “rebellion” has radical islamic militancy at its roots. Why else would al-Qaeda support it? Would AQ throw its support behind a revolution ushering in peaceful, constitutional governance?
...and replaced by radicals allied to those who killed more than 3,000 Americans.
You don't know that.
And BTW, if that were the case, and if we had internal intelligence reports that showed that, then why not exterminate both sides.
That's called the War on Terror. What happened to it?
O please, give me a break. You were insinuating that they all be slaughtered because that is what will happen without nato’s help. Of course islam is imperialist, but you do not know that that is the Libyians motivation. They could very well simply want their country back from an evil tyrant! And they are ones that rather than just protesting, actually have fought back with arms. THat is awesome!
You don't know that.
No one DOES know. However, a disproportionately high number of jihadis into Iraq after the fall of Saddam came from eastern Libya, the base of the current rebellion. Plus, al-Qaeda openly supports them vs. Gaddafi.
Exterminate both sides? That'll win us friends.
We're not as powerful as we once were, so it's time to look at others taking up the slack from time to time. Plus, in case you haven't noticed, we have a nearly nonexistent southern border through which jihadis are entering the U.S. Let's apply the War on Terror there first.
We had a look in the 1960's. The UAR and OPEC were formed back then -- Iraq, Syria, and Egypt confederated as Arab-nationalist (and socialist) "frontline states" determined to erase "the Zionist entity". How did that work out? How did OPEC work out? The Arabs are the original "gang that couldn't shoot straight". Their habitual and inflammable quarrelsomeness militates against any prolonged, disciplined effort toward a strategic goal. These guys are not the Nazi Germans, n/w/s their admiration for, and emulation of, the Nazis.
Like Egypt, right?
http://english.ahram.org.eg/~/NewsContentP/1/7803/Egypt/Copts-fear-Islamic-state-and-say-%E2%80%98No%E2%80%99-to-constitut.aspx
That was only one report. That report only contained information on 700 foreign fighters. There are numerous other reports. I could go and find those reports and link you to them if you would like. If you take all the reports together, it shows that Libyan foreign fighters were not disproportionately high in numbers.
A news report that mentions only one of numerous studies, is either a poor report or it's propaganda. We should not fall for that.
Plus, al-Qaeda openly supports them vs. Gaddafi.
Citation?
Exterminate both sides? That'll win us friends.
The kind of appropriate action where we go after terrorists, was once referred to as the War on Terror. As I asked before, what happened to it?
...we have a nearly nonexistent southern border through which jihadis are entering the U.S. Let's apply the War on Terror there first.
We should go after the terrorists, everywhere.
The neocon theory is that people who live in a democratic state, or at least in a state where they have the prospect of influence over their own government, are more likely to direct their energies inward rather than outward. That seems intuitively likely to me. So if (and that's a big if) we can turn what is currently a prime jihadi recruiting ground into a place where those people have the prospect for ruling themselves, either via ballot or bullet, and at little cost to us, that is a good thing.
But I think the ship may have already sailed on that a couple of weeks ago, when the rebels were at their zenith and a NFZ may have tipped the scales in their favor. Now, Gaddhafi has all but won. And his "amnesty" may end up being that you'll be permitted to leave the country in peace if you go somewhere else to fight the infidels.
Two, right off the top:
"Al Qaida commander backs Libyan rebels in message"
http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=212003
"al Qaeda urges rebels to fight Gadaffi"
http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDetails.aspx? storyid=301798
The kind of appropriate action where we go after terrorists, was once referred to as the War on Terror. As I asked before, what happened to it?
One of those you seek to "exterminate" is a sovereign country. First, we're not going to "exterminate" them and you know that; second, attacking a sovereign country without a long-term strategy is what got us in trouble in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Three other matters I didn't bring up earlier:
1. Would you want to intervene with 0bama playing the role as commander-in-chief? Does anything about his performance give you confidence that he'd succeed in this endeavor?
2. Under which flag will our military fight? U.S., U.N., ??? Which way do you think "citizen of the world" 0bama will go on that one?
3. What happens when Libya devolves into a mish-mash of tribes tearing into each other as a result of our knocking off Gaddafi? Think we're not going to put boots on the ground?
It all sounds so cut and dried... until it starts.
I still maintain... spilling blood for muslims brings no benefit to the United States. They are not worthy of it, IMO. Let them destroy each other.
Not to quarrel unnecessarily, but I don't think Arab women wear burka/burqa styles -- isn't that Pathan/Pashtun dress?
I search for Moslem women's apparel terms and return a host of similar terms -- abaya, jilbab, hijab, disdasha, kurti, chador -- but it would take a seminar course to explain in detail.
For example: http://www.eastessence.com/
Check out "sporty" versus "formal" versus "casual". Quickly, what's the difference?
Of course, it would require a thick encyclopedia to record all the kaleidoscopic array of apparel worn by Western women, the full catalog known only to gay Hollywood costumers.
One thing you forgot: This lameass idiot-ridden administration would prefer an al-Qaeda backed regime.....given they already confer with the Taliban, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. =.=
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.