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Power-grid experiment could confuse electric clocks
MSNBC ^ | June 24, 2011 | Seth Borenstein

Posted on 06/24/2011 11:36:30 PM PDT by John W

WASHINGTON — A yearlong experiment with America's electric grid could mess up traffic lights, security systems and some computers — and make plug-in clocks and appliances like programmable coffeemakers run up to 20 minutes fast.

The group that oversees the U.S. power grid is proposing an experiment that would allow more frequency variation than it does now without corrections, according to a company presentation obtained by The Associated Press.

Officials say they want to try this to make the power supply more reliable, save money and reduce what may be needless efforts. The test is tentatively set to start in mid-July, but that could change.

(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 60hz; ecoweenies; electricity; energypolicy; greenreligion; powergrid; waronamerica; waronindustry
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To: factoryrat
I’m thinking their idea is that they want to boost the line voltage to compensate for I2R loses caused by peak demand.

Almost the entire load base will increase its power consumption if the line voltage increases. The only exceptions are (1) those loads with automatic voltage regulators based on magnetic principles, and (2) those loads powered by switching power supplies. Interestingly, in these two classes of loads, the current consumption goes down with increasing voltage, holding the power consumption nearly constant. The power companies would love it if all their loads were this way, but that will never be.

The vast majority of the load base would respond to increased line voltage with increased power draw and decreased life.

The only way they can do that without changing the infrastucture is to run their alternators at a higher speed, which up’s the line frequency. This doesn’t affect most electronic devices because they use various DC power supplies, along with internal timebases.

Upping the line frequency does not have any direct effect on either the line voltage or the power consumption of the loads on that line, as long as it is kept within limits, say (for North America) 57 to 63 Hz.

It is true that with the advent of computerized everything, fewer and fewer line-powered devices depend on an exact frequency or voltage these days. Electronic appliances (or their power supplies) often work from 100 to 240 VAC and from 47 to 63 Hz, so if they have any need for a time base, they get off an internal crystal oscillator, or a WWV or GPS receiver.

But I should emphasize that TVs, computers, and smartphones are still a small fraction of the entire demand. Think motors and furnaces in steel mills, and HVAC loads everywhere.

61 posted on 06/25/2011 8:53:01 AM PDT by Erasmus (I love "The Raven," but then what do I know? I'm just a poetaster.)
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To: John W
So, is there any effect on 60 HZ equipment from this? Corrected or not?

Doubtful, since the only thing changing is the requirement to correct the accumulated time error. Experience tells me that typically, there will be 3-5 time error corrections a month. More often than not, they are to correct a slow time error ( - seconds). The requirements to maintain frequency still remain the same. They just aren't going to require the small accumulated errors that occur over time.

62 posted on 06/25/2011 8:56:00 AM PDT by meyer (We will not sit down and shut up.)
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To: factoryrat
I hear that. I the plant I work in, you would not believe the carnage that is caused by something is simple as a brownout, even if it lasts a split second. I have spent hours recovering machine operations over that.

Semiconductor wafer fab lines may be the worst case. A power outage there can break equipment and spoil almost all wafers in process. That could be hundreds of millions of dollars lost from a single outage.

Scarce wonder that a wafer fab will spend, say, 20 million on a complete factory UPS--that is, about 1 percent of the entire plant investment.

63 posted on 06/25/2011 8:57:34 AM PDT by Erasmus (I love "The Raven," but then what do I know? I'm just a poetaster.)
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To: Eye of Unk
i would not be surprised if Obama wishes for all generators to immediately start putting out 400MHz frequency instead of 6MHz, why?

Since you said MHz there, it brought to mind the fact that the FedGov has already done something like this with the forced transition from analog to digital TV. (Not actually Obama's fault, for once.)

BTW, the reason for 400 Hz in aircraft was to reduce the size of the (heavy) power transformers. The ones designed for 400 Hz can be a lot smaller, although you pay for this in that they also run hotter, due to hysteresis losses in the cores.

64 posted on 06/25/2011 9:05:20 AM PDT by Erasmus (I love "The Raven," but then what do I know? I'm just a poetaster.)
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To: Eye of Unk
Oh and they do have 400MHz generators, on most aircraft and a whole heck of a lot of military powerplants.

Those 400 MHz generators are called radios. :=) I'm sure that an extra "M" slipped in there.

Yes, 400 Hz power is common in areas where there's a benefit to using the higher frequency which allows for smaller motors, transformers, and the like.

65 posted on 06/25/2011 9:13:11 AM PDT by Bob
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To: 2111USMC
Now, here's a killer.

Thousands of pump jacks, pulling oil from the depths, are powered by electric motors. Those motors aren't cheap.

The oil industry remains, despite the open and numerous attacks by the Obama Administration, the bright and shining economic engine driving relative prosperity in those few areas independent of government jobs which have not been dragged into the swirling vortex of the Obama economy.

66 posted on 06/25/2011 10:11:40 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: DoughtyOne; SatinDoll; snippy_about_it

You’re welcome. I can’t say the information was a complete surprise but it’s presentation got my attention.

I’m glad it provided you too with some additional insight into the UNrelenting forces arayed against US.

SatinDoll, methinks that even if/when we get grid free, the technocrats/globalists/whatever will still be looking for complete control over US.

I think it might be in their genes. <;^(


67 posted on 06/25/2011 2:21:28 PM PDT by MurrietaMadman
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To: Smokin' Joe

Scary stuff.

Devastating EMP effects without having to set anything off.

They are doing everything possible to create chaos and despair in the name of the “common good”.

It amazes me how few people it takes to cause so much misery.


68 posted on 06/25/2011 5:23:40 PM PDT by Califreak (I heard Reagan is back and this time he's Jewish...)
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To: The Working Man

It’s not paranoia if they’re really out to get you.


69 posted on 06/25/2011 5:24:32 PM PDT by Califreak (I heard Reagan is back and this time he's Jewish...)
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To: ansel12

You haven’t changed your clock to match Freeper Standard Time. FST


70 posted on 06/25/2011 5:27:27 PM PDT by ThomasThomas (I am still looking for that box I am supposed to think out of.)
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To: Bob

I’m such a dummy early in the morning, duh! Yeah I meant hertz.


71 posted on 06/25/2011 6:41:27 PM PDT by Eye of Unk (2012, NO MORE LIES!)
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To: Smokin' Joe

http://www.nytimes.com/cwire/2011/05/19/19climatewire-testing-8-different-scenarios-for-a-future-p-51553.html

What do you make of the above article, do you think they are related?


72 posted on 06/25/2011 9:28:56 PM PDT by HollyB
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To: HollyB
That appears to be a multi-scenario modeling program to try to anticipate future grid development and integration of new generation facillities with existing grid infrastructure while better integtrating existing systems.

That needs to be done, especially in light of all the subsidized alternative energy projects out there which just aren't reliable to maintain continued output over time (wind, solar, etc.)

If those are going to be integrated into the grid, the grid is going to need to be modified to carry not only that power, but any compensatory power to fill in the gaps when those systems underperform.

What the Times article describes is more the equivalent of 'wargaming' scenarios in order to be able to plan future development.

Yes, more malevolent things could be written in, but this may well be benign.

73 posted on 06/25/2011 11:52:26 PM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: John W

It seems it would harm our appliances.

Well, Red China will be happy because we’ll have to buy more.


74 posted on 06/25/2011 11:55:33 PM PDT by Sun (Pray that God sends us good leaders. Please say a prayer now.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

Thx SJ, this subject is definitely over my head. So, I appreciate your help and information.


75 posted on 06/26/2011 7:28:47 AM PDT by HollyB
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To: HollyB

Thanks. I know a little. I am sure there are others here more knowledgeable than I am. That’s the beauty of this site, though, misconceptions get cleared up by people who work with things every day.


76 posted on 06/26/2011 8:51:11 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Eye of Unk
I’m such a dummy early in the morning, duh! Yeah I meant hertz.

So, assuming the Hz, MHz thing is a mistake, WTF are you talking about?

77 posted on 06/26/2011 4:46:27 PM PDT by Doe Eyes
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To: Eye of Unk

Military aircraft use 400HZ, not 400MHZ.


78 posted on 06/26/2011 5:57:37 PM PDT by DH (Once the tainted finger of government touches anything the rot begins)
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To: meyer
Probably the simple fact that 60 cycle power happens to occur when the AC generator runs at 3600 RPM (1800 RPM for a 2-pole setup, and I've seen some really weird operating RPM ranges for some old hydro generators with many poles). I think that 60 was chosen simply due to the capabilities of rotating machinery at the time that it became "standard".

But what's magic about those RPMs when the dynamos were being driven by steam engines? They didn't seem to have any trouble running at, say, 200 or 400 RPM to make 16.6666 cps. If anything, it would reduce bearing friction loss and operating life. Maybe that's actually the reason why they used (and in certain places like electric railroads still use) the lower frequencies.

79 posted on 06/27/2011 8:32:05 AM PDT by Erasmus (I love "The Raven," but then what do I know? I'm just a poetaster.)
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