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An Alternate Look at Handgun Stopping Power
Buckeye Firearms Association ^ | 8 July,2011 | Greg Ellifritz

Posted on 07/09/2011 6:01:52 AM PDT by marktwain

I've been interested in firearm stopping power for a very long time. I remember reading Handguns magazine back in the late 1980s when Evan Marshall was writing articles about his stopping power studies. When Marshall's first book came out in 1992, I ordered it immediately, despite the fact that I was a college student and really couldn't afford its $39 price tag. Over the years I bought all of the rest of Marshall's books as well as anything else I could find on the subject. I even have a first edition of Gunshot Injuries by Louis Lagarde published in 1915. Are any of these better than another?

Every source I read has different recommendations. Some say Marshall's data is genius. Some say it is statistically impossible. Some like big heavy bullets. Some like lighter, faster bullets. There isn't any consensus. The more I read, the more confused I get.

One thing I remember reading that made a lot of sense to me was an article by Massad Ayoob. He came out with his own stopping power data around the time Marshall published Handgun Stopping Power. In the article, Ayoob took his critics to task. He suggested that if people didn't believe his data, they should collect their own and do their own analysis. That made sense to me. So that's just what I did. I always had a slight problem with the methodology of Marshall and Sanow's work. For consistency purposes, they ONLY included hits to the torso and ONLY included cases where the person was hit with just a single round. Multiple hits screwed up their data, so they excluded them. This lead to an unrealistically high stopping power percentage, because it factored out many of the cases where a person didn't stop! I wanted to look at hits anywhere on the body and get a realistic idea of actual stopping power, no matter how many hits it took to get it. So I started collecting data.

Over a 10-year period, I kept track of stopping power results from every shooting I could find. I talked to the participants of gunfights, read police reports, attended autopsies, and scoured the newspapers, magazines, and Internet for any reliable accounts of what happened to the human body when it was shot.

I documented all of the data I could; tracking caliber, type of bullet (if known), where the bullet hit and whether or not the person was incapacitated. I also tracked fatalities, noting which bullets were more likely to kill and which were not. It was an exhaustive project, but I'm glad I did it and I'm happy to report the results of my study here.

Before I get to the details, I must give a warning. I don't have any dog in this fight! I don't sell ammo. I'm not being paid by any firearm or ammunition manufacturer. I carry a lot of different pistols for self defense. Within the last 2 weeks, I've carried a .22 magnum, a .380 auto, a .38 spl revolver, 3 different 9mm autos and a .45 auto. I don't have an axe to grind. If you are happy with your 9mm, I'm happy for you. If you think that everyone should be carrying a .45 (because they don't make a .46), I'm cool with that too. I'm just reporting the data. If you don't like it, take Mr. Ayoob.s advice...do a study of your own.

A few notes on terminology...

Since it was my study, I got to determine the variables and their definitions. Here's what I looked at:

- Number of people shot

- Number of rounds that hit

- On average, how many rounds did it take for the person to stop his violent action or be incapacitated? For this number, I included hits anywhere on the body. To be considered an immediate incapacitation, I used criteria similar to Marshall's. If the attacker was striking or shooting the victim, the round needed to immediately stop the attack without another blow being thrown or shot being fired. If the person shot was in the act of running (either towards or away from the shooter), he must have fallen to the ground within five feet.

I also excluded all cases of accidental shootings or suicides. Every shot in this study took place during a military battle or an altercation with a criminal.

- What percentage of shooting incidents resulted in fatalities. For this, I included only hits to the head or torso.

- What percentage of people were not incapacitated no matter how many rounds hit them

- Accuracy. What percentage of hits was in the head or torso. I tracked this to check if variations could affect stopping power. For example, if one caliber had a huge percentage of shootings resulting in arm hits, we may expect that the stopping power of that round wouldn’t look as good as a caliber where the majority of rounds hit the head.

- One shot stop percentage - number of incapacitations divided by the number of hits the person took. Like Marshall's number, I only included hits to the torso or head in this number.

- Percentage of people who were immediately stopped with one hit to the head or torso

Here are the results.

.25ACP

# of people shot - 68

# of hits - 150

% of hits that were fatal - 25%

Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.2

% of people who were not incapacitated - 35%

One-shot-stop % - 30%

Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 62%

% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 49%

.22 (short, long and long rifle)

# of people shot - 154

# of hits - 213

% of hits that were fatal - 34%

Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38

% of people who were not incapacitated - 31%

One-shot-stop % - 31%

Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%

% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%

.32 (both .32 Long and .32 ACP)

# of people shot - 25

# of hits - 38

% of hits that were fatal - 21%

Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.52

% of people who were not incapacitated - 40%

One-shot-stop % - 40%

Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 78%

% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 72%

.380 ACP

# of people shot - 85

# of hits - 150

% of hits that were fatal - 29%

Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.76

% of people who were not incapacitated - 16%

One-shot-stop % - 44%

Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%

% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 62%

.38 Special

# of people shot - 199

# of hits - 373

% of hits that were fatal - 29%

Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.87

% of people who were not incapacitated - 17%

One-shot-stop % - 39%

Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%

% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 55%

9mm Luger

# of people shot - 456

# of hits - 1121

% of hits that were fatal - 24%

Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.45

% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%

One-shot-stop % - 34%

Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 74%

% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 47%

.357 (both magnum and Sig)

# of people shot - 105

# of hits - 179

% of hits that were fatal - 34%

Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.7

% of people who were not incapacitated - 9%

One-shot-stop % - 44%

Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81%

% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 61%

.40 S&W

# of people shot - 188

# of hits - 443

% of hits that were fatal - 25%

Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.36

% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%

One-shot-stop % - 45%

Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%

% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 52%

.45 ACP

# of people shot - 209

# of hits - 436

% of hits that were fatal - 29%

Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.08

% of people who were not incapacitated - 14%

One-shot-stop % - 39%

Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 85%

% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 51%

.44 Magnum

# of people shot - 24

# of hits - 41

% of hits that were fatal - 26%

Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.71

% of people who were not incapacitated - 13%

One-shot-stop % - 59%

Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 88%

% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 53%

Rifle (all Centerfire)

# of people shot - 126

# of hits - 176

% of hits that were fatal - 68%

Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.4

% of people who were not incapacitated - 9%

One-shot-stop % - 58%

Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 81%

% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 80%

Shotgun (All, but 90% of results were 12 gauge)

# of people shot - 146

# of hits - 178

% of hits that were fatal - 65%

Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.22

% of people who were not incapacitated - 12%

One-shot-stop % - 58%

Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 84%

% actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 86%

Discussion

I really would have liked to break it down by individual bullet type, but I didn't have enough data points to reach a level of statistical significance. Getting accurate data on nearly 1800 shootings was hard work. I couldn't imagine breaking it down farther than what I did here. I also believe the data for the .25, .32 and .44 magnum should be viewed with suspicion. I simply don't have enough data (in comparison to the other calibers) to draw an accurate comparison. I reported the data I have, but I really don't believe that a .32 ACP incapacitates people at a higher rate than the .45 ACP!

One other thing to look at is the 9mm data. A huge number (over half) of 9mm shootings involved ball ammo. I think that skewed the results of the study in a negative manner. One can reasonable expect that FMJ ammo will not stop as well as a state of the art expanding bullet. I personally believe that the 9mm is a better stopper than the numbers here indicate, but you can make that decision for yourself based on the data presented.

Some interesting findings:

I think the most interesting statistic is the percentage of people who stopped with one shot to the torso or head. There wasn't much variation between calibers. Between the most common defensive calibers (.38, 9mm, .40, and .45) there was a spread of only eight percentage points. No matter what gun you are shooting, you can only expect a little more than half of the people you shoot to be immediately incapacitated by your first hit.

The average number of rounds until incapacitation was also remarkably similar between calibers. All the common defensive calibers required around 2 rounds on average to incapacitate. Something else to look at here is the question of how fast can the rounds be fired out of each gun. The .38 SPL probably has the slowest rate of fire (long double action revolver trigger pulls and stout recoil in small revolvers) and the fewest rounds fired to get an incapacitation (1.87). Conversely the 9mm can probably be fired fastest of the common calibers and it had the most rounds fired to get an incapacitation (2.45). The .40 (2.36) and the .45 (2.08) split the difference. It is my personal belief that there really isn't much difference between each of these calibers. It is only the fact that some guns can be fired faster than others that causes the perceived difference in stopping power. If a person takes an average of 5 seconds to stop after being hit, the defender who shoots a lighter recoiling gun can get more hits in that time period. It could be that fewer rounds would have stopped the attacker (given enough time) but the ability to fire more quickly resulted in more hits being put onto the attacker. It may not have anything to do with the stopping power of the round.

Another data piece that leads me to believe that the majority of commonly carried defensive rounds are similar in stopping power is the fact that all four have very similar failure rates. If you look at the percentage of shootings that did not result in incapacitation, the numbers are almost identical. The .38, 9mm, .40, and .45 all had failure rates of between 13% and 17%.

Some people will look at this data and say "He's telling us all to carry .22s". That's not true. Although this study showed that the percentages of people stopped with one shot are similar between almost all handgun cartridges, there's more to the story. Take a look at two numbers: the percentage of people who did not stop (no matter how many rounds were fired into them) and the one-shot-stop percentage. The lower caliber rounds (.22, .25, .32) had a failure rate that was roughly double that of the higher caliber rounds. The one-shot-stop percentage (where I considered all hits, anywhere on the body) trended generally higher as the round gets more powerful. This tells us a couple of things...

In a certain (fairly high) percentage of shootings, people stop their aggressive actions after being hit with one round regardless of caliber or shot placement. These people are likely NOT physically incapacitated by the bullet. They just don't want to be shot anymore and give up! Call it a psychological stop if you will. Any bullet or caliber combination will likely yield similar results in those cases. And fortunately for us, there are a lot of these "psychological stops" occurring. The problem we have is when we don't get a psychological stop. If our attacker fights through the pain and continues to victimize us, we might want a round that causes the most damage possible. In essence, we are relying on a "physical stop" rather than a "psychological" one. In order to physically force someone to stop their violent actions we need to either hit him in the Central Nervous System (brain or upper spine) or cause enough bleeding that he becomes unconscious. The more powerful rounds look to be better at doing this.

One other factor to consider is that the majority of these shootings did NOT involve shooting through intermediate barriers, cover or heavy clothing. If you anticipate having to do this in your life (i.e. you are a police officer and may have to shoot someone in a car), again, I would lean towards the larger or more powerful rounds.

What I believe that my numbers show is that in the majority of shootings, the person shot merely gives up without being truly incapacitated by the bullet. In such an event, almost any bullet will perform admirably. If you want to be prepared to deal with someone who won't give up so easily, or you want to be able to have good performance even after shooting through an intermediate barrier, I would skip carrying the "mouse gun" .22s, .25s and .32s.

Now compare the numbers of the handgun calibers with the numbers generated by the rifles and shotguns. For me there really isn't a stopping power debate. All handguns suck! If you want to stop someone, use a rifle or shotgun!

What matters even more than caliber is shot placement. Across all calibers, if you break down the incapacitations based on where the bullet hit you will see some useful information.

Head shots = 75% immediate incapacitation Torso shots = 41% immediate incapacitation Extremity shots (arms and legs) = 14% immediate incapacitation.

No matter which caliber you use, you have to hit something important in order to stop someone!

Conclusion

This study took me a long time and a lot of effort to complete. Despite the work it took, I'm glad I did it. The results I got from the study lead me to believe that there really isn't that much difference between most defensive handgun rounds and calibers. None is a death ray, but most work adequately...even the lowly .22s. I've stopped worrying about trying to find the "ultimate" bullet. There isn't one. And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.

Take a look at the data. I hope it helps you decide what weapon to carry. No matter which gun you choose, pick one that is reliable and train with it until you can get fast accurate hits. Nothing beyond that really matters!

Greg Ellifritz is the full time firearms and defensive tactics training officer for a central Ohio police department. He holds instructor or master instructor certifications in more than 75 different weapon systems, defensive tactics programs and police specialty areas. Greg has a master's degree in Public Policy and Management and is an instructor for both the Ohio Peace Officer's Training Academy and the Tactical Defense Institute. He can be reached at Greg1095@yahoo.com


TOPICS: Extended News; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: ammo; banglist; gun; handgun; power; stopping
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Very interesting data, and a good analysis. Excellent charts at the site. Perhaps an freeper can post them here. This researcher is not making money, but obviously spent a great deal of time and effort on this. I especially appreciate the differentiation between psychological stops and physical stops.
1 posted on 07/09/2011 6:01:56 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

What’s a “hangun”?


2 posted on 07/09/2011 6:03:31 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: marktwain
And I've stopped feeling the need to strap on my .45 every time I leave the house out of fear that my 9mm doesn't have enough "stopping power." Folks, carry what you want. Caliber really isn't all that important.

When leaving my house I always strap on my trusty 155MM howitzer. It's no "Big Bertha," but it's much more portable, and doesn't leave me with a sore back.

3 posted on 07/09/2011 6:08:35 AM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: marktwain

It would be interesting to know if drugs were a factor among the people getting shot correlated to the calibers ability to incapacitate.


4 posted on 07/09/2011 6:08:54 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: ilovesarah2012
What’s a “hangun”?

A Japanese warlord, if I'm not mistaken.

5 posted on 07/09/2011 6:09:28 AM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: marktwain

I am surprised at the numbers for the .22. Good post


6 posted on 07/09/2011 6:11:09 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Mr Ramsbotham

Well, that explains it!


7 posted on 07/09/2011 6:11:26 AM PDT by ilovesarah2012
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To: Mr Ramsbotham

I prefer the new sling-mounted Javelin anti-tank rocket.


8 posted on 07/09/2011 6:11:40 AM PDT by Steely Tom (Obama goes on long after the thrill of Obama is gone)
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To: Steely Tom
I prefer the new sling-mounted Javelin anti-tank rocket.

I don't mind it, but only if it's got the mini-nuke projectile. On the other hand, you never know if they're going to come at you with a tank.

9 posted on 07/09/2011 6:14:50 AM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
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To: marktwain

All it means is shot placement is key. It certainyl isn’t going to be fatal or a one-shot-stop if hit in the shin.


10 posted on 07/09/2011 6:16:53 AM PDT by CodeToad (Islam needs to be banned in the US and treated as a criminal enterprise.)
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To: marktwain

I teach a high school forensics class at a Christian prep school.

We use a police DVD to show the difference in the stopping power of different calibers and loads. (Targets were a combo 1x4 wood plank and water filled milk jugs.)

Their conclusion was to go for the highest velocity round for “your” most accurate caliber.


11 posted on 07/09/2011 6:18:00 AM PDT by Mrs.Z
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To: marktwain

“Caliber really isn’t all that important.”

But Caliber + Shooter ability is important!

That’s a factor I did not see in his report. One Shot stopping power is something that Vietnam Vet’s will tell you first hand when facing “Charlie” at point blank range - or a WW II or I Vet - although the WW I are gone now - but a trained shooter that has experienced in high threat - high stress - environments - can use the .45 semi auto effectively with a one shot stopping capability...I , however was issued a 9mm in Iraq (officer) - and felt very inadequate with that sidearm in a heavy irregular warfare environment and wished we had the .45 cal!


12 posted on 07/09/2011 6:19:05 AM PDT by BCW (http://babylonscovertwar.com/index.html)
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To: ilovesarah2012
"What’s a “hangun”?"

The sudden stop at the end of a rope with 13 turn loop....:^)

13 posted on 07/09/2011 6:19:18 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: marktwain

Good data. Perhaps Mr. Elfritz should consider soliciting cases that other people know about (send me a email...or letter if old-fashioned). He might get some fantasies, but I doubt they would be statistically signficant.


14 posted on 07/09/2011 6:22:26 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: Mrs.Z

Highest velocity isn’t always the answer, like another poster said, shot placement obviously counts, but also a slow heavy projectile can inflict more damage in some cases, especially if one is wearing body armour. For example, a shotgun slug to the chest if a person is wearing body armour will have a great effect, or a shot to the helmet, likely still break necks. Even the Americans in WWII found that they would shoot a german in the head with the .45 and it wouldn’t sometimes penetrate the helmet, but the german was dead anyways... the force of the hit breaks the neck.


15 posted on 07/09/2011 6:24:10 AM PDT by Bulwyf
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To: marktwain

Another attempt to find data in the plural of anecdote.

One anomaly is 9mm. Seems that spray and pray lives in his data.

The other anomaly is .357 magnum. Odd since it uses the same bullets as .38 special, and quite often .38 special is shot from a .357 pistol. Normally this is explained as “cops use .357 revolvers, and thus get better hits”. That may have worked in the 70s, but not so much now.

Da Rules:
First, have a gun. Any gun is better than no gun.
Second, practice so you can hit your target. You really can’t be sure of where you hit because your target will be moving and you will be under stress. Practicing reduces stress.
Third, as a tactic, keep shooting until the target is neutralized/incapacitated or runs away.
Fourth, pick a round that can penetrate to the target’s vitals. This can be a .25ACP with full metal jacket, or a hollow point of larger caliber. Avoid lightweight expanding rounds. Avoid shot size smaller than #1 in shot guns. #1 shot will penetrate a human all the way to the back. Spine, major blood vessels are located deeply.

A 3 inch magnum 12 gauge with #1 shot will give you 25 chances to cut the target’s spine. That will give you a good chance against a single assailant, but gangs typically run in packs.


16 posted on 07/09/2011 6:27:27 AM PDT by donmeaker (I)
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Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: Bulwyf

Also not considered are other factors which may effect the bullet before impact.

A person to person engagement is one thing. What if you have to shoot thru a car door or similar obstruction? I’ve read of cases where the light but high speed projectiles were deflected by a cars windshield.

In another case the .45 ACP hollow point was filled by the persons heavy leather jacket. This resulted in the HP behaving more like a ball ammo.


18 posted on 07/09/2011 6:31:40 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: marktwain
The missing element, for many keyboard cowboys, is training and practice.

You should carry what you can hit with.

4 hits with a .22 beats 4 misses with a .44.

19 posted on 07/09/2011 6:32:20 AM PDT by Jim Noble (Freedom is the freedom to say 2+2=4. If that is granted, all else follows.)
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To: marktwain

Remember that ability and training are associated with caliber used. Thus, for example, the very small number of shooters using an 0.32 may have good incapacitation numbers (other than failure to incapacitate) because users of unusual calibers are likely to be better trained and thus great shots, not because the 0.32 is better than other mouse guns.

It's hard to argue with the rifle/shotgun results, except that they have weaknesses for concealed carry. If you're going to defend your home though, the shotgun jumps to the top of my list. I wonder how many intruders are incapacitated by the sound of the pump action even before the trigger is pulled - that's got to be an effective psychological stop, even before you get the physical stop!

20 posted on 07/09/2011 6:33:03 AM PDT by Pollster1 (Natural born citizen of the USA, with the birth certificate to prove it)
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To: marktwain

Bump!


21 posted on 07/09/2011 6:33:22 AM PDT by JDoutrider
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Oh, BOOKMARKING!!!


22 posted on 07/09/2011 6:34:32 AM PDT by RandallFlagg (Let this chant follow BHO everywhere he goes: "You lie. You lie. You lie.")
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To: Mrs.Z

Energy = mass x velocity SQUARED.

The trick is to choose a bullet which transfers all of that energy to the target without over or under-penetration.

Glasers can fragment too fast in some applications, and FMJ rounds tend to go thru without complete energy transfer.


23 posted on 07/09/2011 6:38:20 AM PDT by MikeSteelBe (Austrian Hitler was as the Halfrican Hitler does.)
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To: driftdiver
Back in the late 70’s I saw a ginormous Mexican absorb 18 - 9mm rounds from 30 down to 10 feet. He then proceeded to take the weapon away from the first cop and start beating him with it while the second cops struggled to reload. The second cop got a reload and pulled up on the guy and then he just keeled over - bled out. He was way pumped on horse tranquilizer.
24 posted on 07/09/2011 6:39:23 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: Steely Tom

The Birdman Weapons Systems compact Barret .50 BMG with the micronuclear ammo is a good choice as well.


25 posted on 07/09/2011 6:39:42 AM PDT by MikeSteelBe (Austrian Hitler was as the Halfrican Hitler does.)
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To: marktwain; NFHale; hiredhand; Squantos; Eaker
In order to physically force someone to stop their violent actions we need to either hit him in the Central Nervous System (brain or upper spine) or cause enough bleeding that he becomes unconscious. The more powerful rounds look to be better at doing this.

i recently read a study on this [ayoob IIRC], and the difference in the 'chance' of hitting something 'vital' in soft tissue is increased with bullet diameter...IOW a .45 will clip an artery where a 9mm in the exact same hole misses it...

besides that, only hits count...

26 posted on 07/09/2011 6:41:07 AM PDT by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: Jim Noble

And, a .38 or 9mm in the head beats a .45 in the kevlar vest.


27 posted on 07/09/2011 6:41:39 AM PDT by MikeSteelBe (Austrian Hitler was as the Halfrican Hitler does.)
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To: marktwain

If you don’t want to get sued, you best make it a lethal shot(s).


28 posted on 07/09/2011 6:41:41 AM PDT by Neoliberalnot ((Read "The Grey Book" for an alternative to corruption in DC))
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To: Pollster1

Nice charts, thank you


29 posted on 07/09/2011 6:42:19 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Bulwyf

we shot a piece of mil kevlar with .45s, that was hung on a makeshift wood ‘stand’...we had to reset the thing after every shot, as the wood kept buckling under the impact, quite impressive indeed...


30 posted on 07/09/2011 6:46:21 AM PDT by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: mad_as_he$$

The perps in the 1986 FBI Miami shootout were totally clean and sober, yet killed agents after taking lethal, but delayed effect gunshots.

I believe it was attributed to their military training, because there have been cases of people dying from the shock of non-lethal shots as well.


31 posted on 07/09/2011 6:46:38 AM PDT by MikeSteelBe (Austrian Hitler was as the Halfrican Hitler does.)
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To: marktwain

What? No fifty calibre?


32 posted on 07/09/2011 6:51:48 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Gilbo_3

On my 2nd tour, we shot military ballistic plates with 9mm, and 5.56mm. 9mm just bounced off, barely scratched it. One round from 5.56mm almost went all the way through, and cracked the plate, so our confidence in those plates dropped drastically after our little experiment heh.


33 posted on 07/09/2011 6:52:51 AM PDT by Bulwyf
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To: marktwain

Very interesting. Thank you for posting it.


34 posted on 07/09/2011 6:57:54 AM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Bulwyf

indeed, there comes a point in the evolution of the armor makeing/armor breaking chain where the cycle favors the penetrator...ifn it werent for all the shrapnel and small projectiles that are stopped...


35 posted on 07/09/2011 7:00:51 AM PDT by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: driftdiver

a good 22 has about the same muzzle energy as a typical 32acp round.


36 posted on 07/09/2011 7:01:15 AM PDT by Jeff Vader (Palin 2012)
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To: driftdiver

Greg Ellifritz (the author) made the charts; I just posted them. He did a good job though, I’ll agree.


37 posted on 07/09/2011 7:01:43 AM PDT by Pollster1 (Natural born citizen of the USA, with the birth certificate to prove it)
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To: marktwain

taurus judge revolver ... winchester .410 PDX1 ammo ... one shot hits all


38 posted on 07/09/2011 7:03:34 AM PDT by TheRightGuy (I want MY BAILOUT ... a billion or two should do!)
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To: Gilbo_3

Lessons learned were:

1. aviod being shot
2. double tap all targets
3. repeat as necessary


39 posted on 07/09/2011 7:04:04 AM PDT by Bulwyf
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To: MikeSteelBe

Yup, I remember that. It shook the LEO world deeply when they realized that people who were not just criminals actually had the will to complete the mission.


40 posted on 07/09/2011 7:09:43 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: MikeSteelBe

As a Navy guy, I'm biased toward the CIWS (vulcan phalanx). It's tough to concealed carry, but 75 rounds per second means that you get a physical stop pretty fast, with or without body armor.

41 posted on 07/09/2011 7:10:10 AM PDT by Pollster1 (Natural born citizen of the USA, with the birth certificate to prove it)
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To: marktwain
As with any caliber discussion, it always defaults to shot placement. For this reason, I think there is too little discussion of the actual platform.

Without regard to caliber, a full sized handgun will always be easier to place accurate shots with than pocket pistols or snubby revolvers. Of course, I'll note that the smaller guns are easier to conceal and are more likely to be carried.

Having said all that, here is my favorite for stopping power:


42 posted on 07/09/2011 7:10:35 AM PDT by umgud
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To: Gilbo_3

I’ll take a 8,000 pound cummins doooge doing 45mph with a ranch hand cattle / brush guard and runflats for a thousand alex......

Or this ride.....

http://www.wimp.com/armoredvehicle/

All that fun and run aside I carry a guncrafters 50GI 1911A1 or their Glock 20/21 replacement slide and magazines in 50GI.

http://www.shootingillustrated.com/index.php/6890/guncrafter-industries-50-gi-conversion-kit-2/

http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/50gi-chp.shtml

Their CHP rounds are my carry ammo for CHL rig.

http://www.guncrafterindustries.com/popup_50gichp.htm

Stay safe, stop the threat !


43 posted on 07/09/2011 7:12:38 AM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: marktwain

I agree with the FBI (http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf). Get a handgun round that can penetrate 12-14 inches. If it has too much recoil for you to shoot well, step down to the best you can find that you CAN shoot well. Then practice.

My home defense gun is a 3” 44 Mag...but with its weight and grip combo, it doesn’t bother me to shoot it as much as my J frame in a hot 357. For carry, I use the J-frame, but with the old 38 special +P “FBI” load.

Oddly enough, the one time I’ve pulled a gun, it was a 22 - all I had at the time. But I had shot 10,000 rounds thru it, wasn’t going to miss, and none of the 8 guys wanted to be first. I think my confidence that I could go for a head shot showed in my body language, and the would be robbers lost interest.

Oh, and it was a 6 shot revolver, so it was physically impossible for me to stop all 8 guys. But as it turned out, I didn’t need to fire a shot...

Also this:

http://www.snubnose.info/docs/No_faith.htm


44 posted on 07/09/2011 7:17:17 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Poor history is better than good fiction, and anything with lots of horses is better still)
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To: marktwain

From the second link I posted:

“If a 150 pound deer can be shot through the heart with a .30-06 180-gr. expanding bullet at 2700 ft/sec and keep moving, should we expect that a 200 pound human hit with a 180-gr. expanding forty-caliber bullet at 975 ft/sec to be instantly incapacitated?

I believe it’s an unrealistic expectation to assume that any defensive pistol cartridge will deck a human being as though struck by lightning. It will happen on some occasions, but not all and probably not the majority.”


45 posted on 07/09/2011 7:19:29 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Poor history is better than good fiction, and anything with lots of horses is better still)
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To: MikeSteelBe

Kinetic energy = 1/2 mass x velocity^2

momentum = mass x velocity


46 posted on 07/09/2011 7:20:01 AM PDT by Glenn (iamtheresistance.org)
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To: marktwain

Being calm under fire is the most important variable. And anyone can obtain the path to that true calmness at fhu.com and the free Be Still exercise...used widely by our military now.


47 posted on 07/09/2011 7:20:53 AM PDT by fabian (" And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and the forests will echo with laughter")
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To: CodeToad
All it means is shot placement is key. It certainyl isn’t going to be fatal or a one-shot-stop if hit in the shin.

I've been trained to just keep firing until he or they are either all laying on the ground and have ceased all aggressive activity, or I'm out of ammo. Police are trained to empty their magazines if they have to shoot.

48 posted on 07/09/2011 7:22:10 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (In the land of the pig, the butcher is king.)
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To: Jim Noble

Training and practice are key, but I’d wager a large percentage of the people on these threads are more practiced than your average LEO.


49 posted on 07/09/2011 7:23:54 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: marktwain

So centerfire rifles and shotguns have the best one-shot stopping power. Their downside is the slight bulge under clothing when carrying concealed.


50 posted on 07/09/2011 7:32:28 AM PDT by lurk
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