Posted on 07/15/2011 2:23:55 PM PDT by Steelfish
Thanks! I teach history, which seems to be a dying discipline these days. I enjoy tipping applecarts. There is a place, even in secular history, and even in the ‘enlightened’ age for Conservatives, despite what the general narrative claims otherwise. The discipline the concepts that history should be based on facts and on what was actually written was started by a fellow named von Ranke, who’s most famous work was a history of the Catholic church. Written by a pietist Lutheran.
I’m in his school, so don’t let anyone bully you as a conservative, Chances are the people who did the stuff that really mattered and haven’t been lauded were conservative.
You disagree with this following statement?
Jesus died on the Cross for my sins, rose again and is alive today for anybody that will invite him in as Lord of their life etc.”
That would basically put you in disagreement with every Christian evangelical program on tv anywhere in North America.
Is that what you are saying?
Sounds to me like you are putting too much emphases on denominations..ie Catholicism, Protestantism.
A person can be a Catholic or a Protestant and attend Church every Sunday and not be saved at the same time. There are thousands upon thousands of dead Churches around North America/The World. Dead Catholic Churches,dead Protestant Churches.
You would be hard pressed to find a dead Pentecostal Church or a dead Non denominational Bible Church
If we do not personally accept the Lord Jesus Christ into our hearts, thanking Him personally for dying on the Cross for our sins, everything else is in vain. Churches are full of such people, many Churches the Minister is not even saved.
God Be Merciful to Me A Sinner, Come in to my life Lord Jesus, Please fill me with your Precious Holy Spirit, Lord Save Me, Be Lord of My Life, Thank You Jesus for dying on the Cross for my sins. I turn to You Lord from My sins, Lead me, be Lord of my life.
Without a prayer (SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES) there is no salvation, regardless what Church,if any a person attends.
It`s not supposed to be that difficult. If we attend a Church that supports gay marriage/abortion, then everything is in vain also. A Christian could be no part of a Church like that, or one that voted Democrat in any way shape or form.
Sounds to me like you are putting too much emphases on denominations..ie Catholicism, Protestantism.
A person can be a Catholic or a Protestant and attend Church every Sunday and not be saved at the same time. There are thousands upon thousands of dead Churches around North America/The World. Dead Catholic Churches,dead Protestant Churches.
You would be hard pressed to find a dead Pentecostal Church or a dead Non denominational Bible Church
If we do not personally accept the Lord Jesus Christ into our hearts, thanking Him personally for dying on the Cross for our sins, everything else is in vain. Churches are full of such people, many Churches the Minister is not even saved.
God Be Merciful to Me A Sinner, Come in to my life Lord Jesus, Please fill me with your Precious Holy Spirit, Lord Save Me, Be Lord of My Life, Thank You Jesus for dying on the Cross for my sins. I turn to You Lord from My sins, Lead me, be Lord of my life.
Without a prayer (SOMETHING ALONG THOSE LINES) there is no salvation, regardless what Church,if any a person attends.
It`s not supposed to be that difficult. If we attend a Church that supports gay marriage/abortion, then everything is in vain also. A Christian could be no part of a Church like that, or one that voted Democrat in any way shape or form.
Sorry for the double post was accidental
I absolutely agree. with that statement.
I am arguing that any Christian, Catholic or protestant agrees on the basics, and have never disagreed on the basics.
Preach it bro. Again, I agree with you that whether someone is dead or alive in Christ has nothing to do with his church.
I do believe however, that those who make the effort to attend every week are, with their actions, demonstrating that the Lord is Lord over the Sabbath. It’s not enough to merely believe, but to live out what you believe.
I am sure you are right, and not to be difficult, but there are those that can not attend Church for various reasons... Also Peter and Paul had a discussion/argument over what was actually necessary for a person to be saved.
Paul argued that Faith in Christ was all that was necessary, and to try and put other burdens on believers was not right. I believe Paul eventually won the discussion.
We are saved by Grace through Faith and not of works lest any man should boast. That is basically the key..
Yes I also know the Scripture faith without works is dead..James
But for sure you are RIGHT, It`s good to keep the Sabbath etc and people need fellowship with other believers etc, but actually for plain old fashion salvation, for those that can not attend for various reasons, not necessary for Salvation, yes VERY GOOD, but does not determine Salvation.
Again not trying to be difficult, just joining the conversation.
FRiend, never said you were being difficult. This is an enjoyable discussion.
Christ never says how only that your life should reflect what you believe. I believe it is the obligation of the community to accommodate and come to the sick, not the other way around.
Those that are able to attend should go. It helps them and it helps the community. Paul even says that we should not give up the habit of meeting with one another in order to help each other.
And remember on the battlefield, where our arms get tired, but others hold them up. We are called to bear each other’s burdens, and we can’t very well do that unless we put ourselves out where people can reach us.
Thanks :) What could I disagree with, well said!
Thanks :) What could I disagree with, well said!
Now If the discussion was to continue, I could see it heading towards...Once saved always saved, that would be lively and am sure we would draw some other partakers to the conversation as well on both sides.
That’s an interesting question. I believe you can’t because you don’t know until after all is said and done, and Christ tells you, “bless you well and faithful servant”.
Until then? Anything can happen between point A and point B.
OK I will give it a go..Once saved always saved
If I understood properly (forgive me if I am mistaken) I believe you are a Traditional Catholic shall we say, so I fully expect you will have a hard time with this theory.
Many theologians believe this...goes like this
The New Testament says we are saved by grace through faith, it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.
We can not earn salvation, it is a total free gift of God. Our righteousness is like “FILTHY RAGS” to God.
Not one is Righteous not one! I am sure you know all these Scriptures, I do not have Chapter and verse, just off top of my head from memory.
Romans Chapter 8 vs 38, 39 says...I am persuaded that neither death nor life,nor angels,nor principalities,nor powers,nor things present,nor things to come,nor height nor depth,nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Am I saying once saved always saved means a person can ask Jesus into their life and then eat drink and be merry? Absolutely not.
God has foreknowledge into the future, he knows our motives, whether or not we are sincere when we ask him into our life in the first place, so anybody that thought like that would not be able to receive the Lords Spirit anyway.
When Christians are saved they receive the Holy Spirit and are sealed basically.
I can give you a few examples of who believes this Pat Robertson 700 Club, David Mainse 100 Huntley Street, Radio Bible Class, you know the Daily Bread booklets. Mart Dehaun did a entire Bible study for Daily Bread on this very topic.
Anybody that believes in the Rapture.... When Jesus returns in the air all Christians throughout time will rise first then the Christians that are still alive on the earth will join them.
Some refer to this as the Rapture... All Christians will be judged by Christ, but salvation is not at issue. Anybody that received Christ was sealed by the Holy Spirit, and our salvation is not in question. But are still being judged for our life.
Now many people do NOT believe this, absolutely!
So what is the alternative....All of a sudden OUR righteousness is NOT like filthy rags as Jesus said?
Salvation is NOT a free gift of God lest any man should boast...as Jesus said.
We can earn Salvation, even though Jesus said no?
Or is it we are only saved for moments at a time, and the moment we do something wrong we are un saved instantly?
Jesus died on the cross for our sins because we could not save ourselves. None of us are good enough to be saved by our own merit... He died once and for all, no more temporary animal sacrifices, The Lamb of God himself, Jesus took our place, the final sacrifice.
BTW I am giving you the theory, the argument of many theologians, if it sounds like me preaching was not the intent, just going from memory of the studies.
To believe otherwise is to believe that salvation, being saved is only a temporary fix.
Now anybody that thinks this means, great I will get saved so that I can live in sin, would not have been sincere in the first place, hence would not be saved in the first place.
As Christians we do not want to sin against the Lord, we feel guilty and we ask forgiveness.
That`s the theory, and most Pentecostal ministers believe this, they might not have a name for it.
Those that do not believe this are still saying I am good enough to be saved, it isn`t just grace through faith as Jesus said. it`s my works also.
Again, Jesus said Not One is righteous! He says our righteousness is like filthy rags.
It`s our works and Not Christ`s sacrifice we are then saying.
It`s true James said faith without works is dead, we are supposed to want to do for the Lord
Anyway that`s the theory.
And yes I believe it, do I want to start drinking and carrying on because I think I might get away with it, no!
You might be surprised just how many pastors/theologians believe this
“BTW I am giving you the theory, the argument of many theologians, if it sounds like me preaching was not the intent, just going from memory of the studies.”
It’s all about theology. That would be discussion biology without understanding the theories behind them. Theologians of course are fair game. No worries.
Couple things here. Christ gave himself as a sacrifice for our sins, as both fully man and fully God bridged the gap between God and men.
His sacrifice does not change, our response is to either accept his sacrifice and to seek repentence. Now, if it is true that once we receive the holy spirit, that we cannot be lost, then the inevitable consequence of this belief is that go and sin no more.
However, I believe that believers in Christ can lose their connection to the holy spirit. You are quite right, they are marked as God’s own in baptism, and that does not change. They are not the same as they once were. The Holy Spirit will still be in them, but it will not be effective. Think of it as a motor running down. Sin clogs our connection with God, and the more we turn to sin, the less well our connection with the Holy Spirit and with God.
Can God lose one of his own who is marked, yes, if that person chooses to abandon God for something else in his heart. I believe it’s possible. This is why we have to confess our sins and continue to seek repentence for our sins not just once, but throughout our lives.
Thanks :) I was not suggesting for a moment that we stop asking for forgiveness of our sins. I have to ask the Lord for forgiveness quite reg.
If the idea in someones head would be...great I am free to sin, that would be a bad place to be.
The intent of the Bible study by Daily Bread was to show people just how much God Loves them, that if they could get to that place where they knew God would never leave them nor forsake them, that they would just be floored to learn that they are saved period. Blown away by God`s love for them.
Assurance without doubt...
What you said was very good... :) especially to go and sin no more, that should be the desire of our hearts, however Paul said until he is rid of this corruptible body??
Thanks for the exchange of thoughts :)
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