Posted on 08/27/2011 11:58:48 AM PDT by DFG
All of the issues cited are handled before shipment in India. There is no there there.
This is a political hit, just like the GM dealers.
Not a surprise from this commie admin
I had read that Gibson hadn’t been happy with the quality of the ‘finished’ parts from India, so they ordered them to be thicker than spec so that they could sand them down and fix them in the States. Gibson should have learned the lesson of Microsoft and Bill Gates during the Clinton years about political donations.
Funny how this was my first thought when I initially heard of the incident.
I’m was the proud owner of a Gibson SG and Gibson ES 335. I’m now even prouder!
Chicago thuggery at its best/worst.
Martin contributes to Libs? Shall I sell my D-28 and D-35? Not a friggin’ chance...could have been made by Beelzebub. CF Martin didn’t actually make the guitars, hired labor did. Wonder if they’re union. Thanks for the heads up.
We are now a nation of assemblers anyway. The guitars are probably built in Mexico and assembled in Nazarith, PA.
“Not a surprise from this commie admin”
So, I wonder how many people snuck over the border while this was going on...well, in this time of belt-tightening, nipping a critical issue like this in the bud is is a priority, I suppose...
projectile-barf spewing /s
That's because simply using the wood isn't illegal. And likely because C. F. Martin had the correct paperwork and followed the rules to use the wood. Martin has a heck of a lot more experience using East Indian Rosewood on its guitars and dealing with the regulations and paperwork; Gibson makes the J-45, J-185 Rosewood and J-165 Rosewood in East Indian Rosewood (Martin makes 51 East Indian Rosewood models), the premier Gibson models (J-200, L-200, Dove, Hummingbird, Southern Jumbo) are made of mahogany or maple.
Martin also produces many more acoustic guitars each day than Gibson does (Gibson has a strong line of electric guitars, mandolins, banjos, and capital "D" Dobros - a trade name, and some acoustic guitars). Gibson makes 60 acoustic models, total; Martin makes twenty different body shapes and over 50 different models within the D14 body shape alone.
Gibson's CEO is known - and was known before he got into the guitar business - for being a pretty aggressive businessman.
Plus, it may be that Gibson's cutting compliance corners due to its financial situation after the flood in Nashville. Gibson lost everything at Opryland Mills. Not only production, but forms and molds. Mandolin and banjo production was shut down. There were talks of Huber talking over Gibson banjos - then talks of sale of the Gibson banjo line to a Chinese buyer.
No, there's a lot I think this administration is capable of, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
In this case, my guess is that Gibson simply cut corners.
The next administration’s DOJ is going to be very busy investigating the abuses of power exhibited by THIS administration’s DOJ. Holder and his bunch make, even, Janet Reno look intelligent.
I remember that, and I worked in management at a car dealer until our dealership closed in 2008.
RandallFlagg wrote:
I hope people still remember all of the car lots run by republican donors forced into closing after Obama bought GM.
Although people tried to make a big deal about that, there is one fact that gets in the way. Automobile dealers did not donate to Obama's campaign. The email about that said that only 1% or 2% of the GM dealerships closed were "Obama supporters." If that's true, then Obama supporters were overrepresented in the closing.
If you check opensecrets.org, you'll find that auto dealers donated far less than 1% of their total political contributions to Obama in the 2008 presidential campaign. And the number of Obama donors was also far less than 1% of the total donors from that industry.
Auto dealers knew what Obama was and that he would end their industry. Almost no auto dealers supported The Won.
Republican leaders in Congress should hold a press conference and call on Obama to call off his dogs. Ride this issue for a week. Call this Obama’s jobs program.
Interesting that, in Gibson’s hour of dire need, the 0bama administration chose to raid them over a nit-picking and questionable point of bureaucratic regulatory procedure and compliance rather than help them out and save some jobs. Ho hum, another day in the “Oval Office” [ note - known during the Klinton administration as the “Oval Orifice” ]
It is true of all politicians. Ignore what they say, just watch what they do.
Funny how Fender wasn't raided, when it uses all of that rosewood on fretboards. And how Guild wasn't raided, or the smaller luthiers like Collings, and Goodall, and Olson, and Froggy Bottom, and . . .
But they probably had the paperwork straight and obeyed the rules, no matter how arcane, unlike Gibson.
Seems to make a lot more sense than immediately assuming this was a targeted hit because of Republican donations.
Gibson used to use Brazilian rosewood until importation of that wood was banned. They were also recently in hot water for using rosewood harvested (allegedly illegally) from Madagascar. I don't know how how that story played out but Gibson sure seems to have a target on their back from this current administration.
Lately they've been utilizing something called "Torrified maple" for their fretboards. It's dark brown like rosewood but hard like regular maple. Of course, many Gibson customers are "purists" who believe a Les Paul is a perfect combination of mahogany, maple, rosewood, neck angles, nitrocellulose finishes and even the glue that is used (when Gibson switched from hide glue to Franklin Titebond, hell broke loose!) and any deviation from this formula will produce a different instrument, lacking its signature tone.
In short, putting a Torrified maple fretboard on a Les Paul will undoubtedly result in mountains of angry letters from Gibson players!
Chicago Way ping!
This should be investigated by Congress!
American gestapo in action.
I think that Gibson had the proper paperwork as well. Their website has more information on this. They have a Press Release about it, and a public response page that includes a 35-ish minute video.
Scoutmaster wrote:
That's because simply using the wood isn't illegal. And likely because C. F. Martin had the correct paperwork and followed the rules to use the wood.
There, it says that they had propper documentation, and that even authorities in India were OK with what was being done. The problem seems to be that US authorities have a different interpretation of Indian trade law.
If I'm reading other comments and other sources correctly, Gibson wasn't happy with the finish when they ordered the parts from India, so they ordered them slightly thicker than needed, but still finished by Indian workers. Then, when the parts arrived in Memphis, Gibson workers refinished the pieces to a higher quality specification. I might be missing something there.
The government is also holding a significant amount of ebony fingerboards from the 2009 raid of the Gibson facility in Nashville, and has not filed any charges or prosecuted anyone. But they refuse to release the wood back to Gibson.
There's something wrong with this whole arrangement. We shouldn't have to have documentation filed with the Kings agents to make a guitar, and the King shouldn't be able to seize our assets if our paperwork isn't absolutely perfect. I don't see anywhere in the Constitution where it says Congress can tell a manufacturer what materials it can use to make it's products, or what special paperwork must be on file to make guitars out of (*Gasp*) wood.
Just curious. How many of those other companies are located in "right to work" states? How many of those operations are union shops?
Scoutmaster wrote:
Funny how Fender wasn't raided, when it uses all of that rosewood on fretboards. And how Guild wasn't raided, or the smaller luthiers like Collings, and Goodall, and Olson, and Froggy Bottom, and . . .
Importation of Brazilian Rosewood was banned in 1992 until CITES (some exceptions to be discussed). It was and is considered the king of tonewoods for acoustic guitars, both because of its tonal qualities and the wonderful chocolate brown color with great swirling grain. All of those $200,000 -$500,000+ pre-war Martin D-28s that are considered the Stradivarius of acoustic guitars are Brazilian Rosewood with Adirondack Spruce tops (with forward-shifted bracing).
Again, although Gibson used some Brazilian Rosewood, Gibson's always been more into maple and mahogany acoustic guitars.
It's still possible to get Brazilian (lower-quality Brazilian) at a high price, but the luthier has to have a lot of paperwork showing that the wood came from a tree cut down before 1992. That era of getting Brazilian from old stumps is an era that's pretty well passed, however.
Madagascar Rosewood was illegal to import (under Madagascar rules, I believe) for years, but a coup made it possible to get some into the country over the last decade or so. It's the closest thing, tonally and in looks, to Brazilian that we've seen.
East Indian is nice, but nothing like Madagascar or Brazilian Rosewood.
All of that is said with respect to using the wood as a tonewood, and not just as a fretboard or the veneer on a headstock.
And using Franklin Titebond instead of hide glue makes a difference, I believe. Think of pulling away old white glue. It still has a rubbery feel to it. Hide glue is brittle. When you want to transfer vibration from one wood component to another, rubbery white glue, no matter how well cured and now matter how thin the coat, dampens the vibration. That's what I hear from luthiers and based on guitars I have that are made with hide glue, I believe I can hear the difference.
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