Posted on 09/18/2011 9:56:26 AM PDT by dila813
False. Totally false.
The turbines are being built with tax-subsidized moeny and tax credits that will NEVER pay off. There is no money being spent on maintenance, and many are being built - but, because the expensive power lines are NOT subsidized nor mandated by the fed "green" money, and in some cases, the power lines are being opposed by the enviro's - many wind towers are being built ... but NEVER hooked up the grid. It is a deliberate scam to get as much money form the feds as possible before the tap dries up. In 15 years, fewer than 1 in 20 will be turning. The rest? Abandoned in place - a scar on the landscape.
Nationally, wind farms average ONLY 22% service factor. Basically, to get the “stated power” of 1 260 foot tall turbine (rated at 3 MegWatt for example), you need to build 5 3 MegWatt turbines in one field. Then, because winds drop off regionally (150 mile to 200 mile wide “calm” spots as the weather changes, you have to build 3 more fields of those 15 to get the rated power of one turbine.
For example, in Texas this summer, during the drought, they were getting only 1 - 3% of the “potential power” from all of their wind turbines. But the power distribution system and high volt lines have to be built for the maximum capacity! SO, you're wasting all the money, material, and time to install “cables to nowhere” to bring “power from nowhere.”
I have a solution! Create parking lots at windmill farms, with rechargers for electric cars. Then they can sell power to the green car owners, the electricity gets stored in batteries and not lost, and everyone is happy! (Just don’t subsidize any of this with my tax dollars, and I’l be happy.)
The “pinheads” you are referring to are the voters who live on the coast. It wasn’t the legislature.
“Wind Turbines EAT BALL-BEARINGS”. They are not that backwards. Timken® UltraWind Tapered Roller Bearings, 8-liter standard grease reservoir for once-yearly turbine maintenance with stirring paddle and wiper to minimize air pockets and grease separation. Standard 24VDC power connection; battery backup and 115/230 VAC optional. They should only be used as backup energy source, not as a primary electrical source. If the wind-farms fail then you are in the dark, if you don’t have power plant to make up for the loss of power.
"those" refers to coal-fired power plants, not wind farms.
Some wind farms rely on the Investment Tax Credit, a 30% (of CAPEX) upfront reimbursement from the Treasury Dept. Others rely on Production Tax Credits, which are measured as energy is produced and used to offset the investor's tax liability - like your mortgage interest deduction.
There is no money being spent on maintenance, and many are being built - but, because the expensive power lines are NOT subsidized nor mandated by the fed "green" money, and in some cases, the power lines are being opposed by the enviro's - many wind towers are being built ... but NEVER hooked up the grid.
The most ridiculous thing posted here in weeks. Every wind farm built is connected to the grid in order to energize and commission the turbines. And every wind farm has several line items in their budgets for maintenance.
It is a deliberate scam to get as much money form the feds as possible before the tap dries up. In 15 years, fewer than 1 in 20 will be turning. The rest? Abandoned in place - a scar on the landscape.
Interesting statement since the first utility scale wind farms commissioned in the late 1990s are still operating.
Nationally, wind farms average ONLY 22% service factor. Basically, to get the “stated power” of 1 260 foot tall turbine (rated at 3 MegWatt for example), you need to build 5 3 MegWatt turbines in one field. Then, because winds drop off regionally (150 mile to 200 mile wide “calm” spots as the weather changes, you have to build 3 more fields of those 15 to get the rated power of one turbine.
The majority of wind farms built have a NET capacity factor greater than 30%, and in many cases between 40~50%. No one over-builds a wind farm to generate no less than their RATED capacity. By that logic a coal-fired power plant would have to over-build by ~10% to compensate for maintenance outages.
For example, in Texas this summer, during the drought, they were getting only 1 - 3% of the “potential power” from all of their wind turbines.
Yeah, 1-3% of the "potential power" of the entire ERCOT system, OK. And? Did someone claim wind was 100% of the system?
But the power distribution system and high volt lines have to be built for the maximum capacity! SO, you're wasting all the money, material, and time to install “cables to nowhere” to bring “power from nowhere.”
By that logic, we should build no peaker plants, since they aren't used 100% of the time yet the grid is built out to handle their load if needed. Plus peakers only run during "peak" power demand when power prices are also very high = peakers are intermittent (albeit reliable, on-demend) expensive power kinda like wind. Let's ridicule peakers and their associated transmission capacity in the grid!
Thanks RACPE.
ah, ok, well the efficiency is up for debate, but we were discussing utilization of capacity. Coal plants use 100% of their rated capacity on demand.
Your are both wrong, the unelected utilities district is the one who did this.
The average voter didn’t know about it, still doesn’t, and doesn’t give a rip even if you tell them.
Just remember, in Spain the government required each windmill to be hooked to the grid as part of the commissioning to get the credit, but they weren’t doing it.
The Windmill Power Company was acting as their own general contractor, they just were putting windmills up with no generator since 90% of the cost of the windmill was the gen set.
We don’t know what fraud is going on in the US yet, but since the ramifications of fraud are much more severe in the US, it will take longer to come out.
I don’t doubt that it is true, there are wind mills out there that aren’t even hooked up and no generator is inside.
Yes, coal plants use 100% of their eficiency on demand, but it's not 24/7/365 as they have scheduled outages for maintenance (as do gas turbines) that decrease their rated capacity on an annual basis to 90~95% as some plants (or turbines thereof) need to go off-line for as much as 30 days for maintenance and overhauls.
Just remember, in Spain the government required each windmill to be hooked to the grid as part of the commissioning to get the credit, but they weren’t doing it.
The problem in Europe is that many countries have what is called a "feed-in tariff" that requires the utility to buy a wind turbine's output with no regard for efficiency or of the location of the turbine in a windy spot. So you could install a turbine in the least windy spot yet the utility would have to pay the owner a certain amount regardless. In the US the Production Tax Credit (PTC) is just that, production based. So the more energy produced on windy days (yes, it has to be produced and sent into the grid at the substation to be measured and credited) the more tax credits generated. This has resulted in optimizing turbine locations (in the windiest spots), greater turbine efficiencies and performance when the wind is blowing - regardless of whether you agree with wind energy to begin with.
I don’t doubt that it is true, there are wind mills out there that aren’t even hooked up and no generator is inside.
That is a patently false staement. Each turbine requires grid connectivity in order to be tested for it's output and be commissioned, since the investor would not be able to claim any PTCs without actually generating energy and measuring it at the substation, in coordination with the grid operator, not just "supposedly" measuring the output. It's all metered and reported to FERC, not to mention the IRS on a quarterly basis when the investor files its taxes and wants to claim the PTCs. Installing an empty or disconnected turbine, while claiming the PTCs would likely result in fraud charges to at least 2 different federal agencies.
Again, if some FReepers don't like wind energy, fine. But let's all argue the facts without exaggerations and hyperbole like Liberals do.
I believe that it was an initiative that was voted in by the voters. I have no idea what you mean by “utilities district.” I had power from Puget Power and I had power from Inland, but I never got any power from any “utilities district”.
Some localitites in Washington have PUDs(Public Utilities Districts)and many do not.
The BPA is addressing one of the “problems” associate with what I call “ephemeral/sporadic generation sources” shoved onto their grid network by the “greenies” in the only way it can !
IMO, far too little attention is directed/called to the “problems associate” with putting these sorts of sporadic generation sources “on grid”, by their advocates. They apparently see generation - regardless of source - as a “power pool”, from which the nation’s consumers can draw as needed. Nothing could be further from reality ! >PS
The point you are missing. If that turbine wasn’t taken down for maintenance, it wouldn’t have been running anyways.
Lack of demand, they do the maintenance when the demand is lower.
Of course in some Western States, because they won’t let new plants get built, they are cutting into the redundancy. Some times they don’t even have time to do maintenance and they actually have the turbine running the whole year at 99%+.
Washington has this law that was approved by Voters:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=19.285.040
This law requires power companies to buy so much renewable power as part of their mix. They can count wind power they sell as part of this. The law doesn’t mandate consumers buy it, but if the utility is unable to get people to buy it with the incentives that are out there, then they go to the Utilities commission to ram it down your throat.
The Utilities Commission is what is forcing you buy wind power, this is the one jacking up your rates and injecting renewables into your power mix for you home. This is done to make the law above work.
http://www.utc.wa.gov/regulatedIndustries/utilities/energy/Pages/default.aspx
Utilities Commission. The WUTC or Washington Utilities and Transportation Commission. I got you now. Ok. They’ve actually got employees with partial L.E. commissions that stop commercial trucks and write very expensive tickets for very odd rule violations. Those are the folks that the power companies go to, hat in hand, asking for permission to raise the rates. They are never turned down.
That’s right, and when the utility can’t sell the renewable power in your district, they make you buy it.
“The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind....the answer is blowin’ in the wind....”
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