Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Is Social Security a Ponzi Scheme? (a no brainer )
Mises Institute ^ | September 19, 2011 | Robert P. Murphy

Posted on 09/25/2011 8:32:21 PM PDT by sickoflibs

Ever since Rick Perry derided Social Security as a Ponzi scheme, economists and other pundits have jumped into the fray. Progressive blogger Matt Yglesias says it's "nuts" for anyone to talk like this, because Social Security merely relies on future economic growth — just like a private pension plan. Free-market economist Alex Tabarrok responded to Yglesias with links to arch-Keynesians (and Nobel laureates) Paul Samuelson and Paul Krugman, both comparing Social Security to a "Ponzi game."

In the present article I have three aims: First, I will point out that the critics are right; to the extent that Social Security "worked," it was because of its resemblance to a classic Ponzi scheme. Second, I will show how private-sector retirement planning operates nothing like this. Third, I will defend the good name of Charles Ponzi from the scurrilous comparisons — what he did was nothing like the racket known as Social Security.

Social Security's "Ponzi Game Aspects" Paul Krugman is a famous guy with a long record of strong opinions. It's to be expected that periodically these will come back to bite him. His usual tack is to deny that his old columns meant what their plain-word reading would indicate. For example, Krugman can't believe anybody thought this column (from 2002) should be construed as his endorsement of Greenspan trying to create a housing bubble.

When it comes to Social Security, here's what Krugman wrote in late 1996:

Social Security is structured from the point of view of the recipients as if it were an ordinary retirement plan: what you get out depends on what you put in. So it does not look like a redistributionist scheme. In practice it has turned out to be strongly redistributionist, but only because of its Ponzi game aspect, in which each generation takes more out than it put in. Well, the Ponzi game will soon be over, thanks to changing demographics, so that the typical recipient henceforth will get only about as much as he or she put in (and today's young may well get less than they put in).

As with his unfortunate housing-bubble article, here too Krugman has had to do damage control. After the above column floated around the Internet, Krugman tried to quell the giggling, claiming that anyone who tried to use him in support of Republican claims was playing "word games." Krugman then gave a link to this fascinating history of the original Ponzi scheme, courtesy of — the Social Security Administration! (It seems they must get this a lot.)

I was curious to see how the Social Security Administration would defend itself from the charge that it was a Ponzi scheme. Here's what they say:

In contrast to a Ponzi scheme, dependent upon an unsustainable progression, a common financial arrangement is the so-called "pay-as-you-go" system. Some private pension systems, as well as Social Security, have used this design. A pay-as-you-go system can be visualized as a pipeline, with money from current contributors coming in the front end and money to current beneficiaries paid out the back end.…

There is a superficial analogy between pyramid or Ponzi schemes and pay-as-you-go programs in that in both money from later participants goes to pay the benefits of earlier participants. But that is where the similarity ends.…

As long as the amount of money coming in the front end of the pipe maintains a rough balance with the money paid out, the system can continue forever. There is no unsustainable progression driving the mechanism of a pay-as-you-go pension system and so it is not a pyramid or Ponzi scheme.

Contrary to the claims of Yglesias, Krugman, and the Social Security Administration, I don't think the "Ponzi scheme" charge is unfair in the slightest. When critics say Social Security is "unsustainable," they quite obviously mean that it can't keep up the current taxing and benefit schedules. Either taxes on workers will go up, promised benefits will be reduced, or some combination of the two. Krugman's 1996 column confirms that analysis, and the Social Security Administration's pipeline does too.

Up until now, retirees have been taking out more than they put in, and that can't continue — this pattern relied on finding ever more workers to join the system. In other words, it was a classic Ponzi scheme. I am not here to endorse candidate Rick Perry, but the point of his charge is obviously true: each generation can't keep taking more out of the system than it put in, once the demographics change.

The SSA's pipeline graphic is interesting. If that is ultimately what Social Security turns into, and if each generation of workers merely takes out "what it originally put in," then it means workers will earn a zero-percent (real) return on their "contributions" into the system.

Yes, that would certainly be "sustainable" in an accounting sense (at least with a stable age distribution in the population), but would it work politically? If politicians frankly told voters, "When we take $1,000 from you at age 25, don't worry, that $1,000 will be waiting for you when you're 65," would they be happy with this arrangement? Charles Ponzi too could have made his scheme more sustainable if he promised his investors a 0 percent rate of return, but then nobody would have been interested.

In fairness, Matt Yglesias points out that the pipeline method can yield a positive rate of return. If the workers at the left end of the pipe always pump in, say, 15 percent of their paycheck, then (if productivity grows over time as it normally does) 50 years later, when they are on the other end of the pipe, there will be more dollars shooting out. However, in this scenario we're back to an arrangement where each generation gets out more than it put in — what Krugman himself thought was a "Ponzi game aspect." In any event, Yglesias's framework is still vulnerable to demographic shifts.

Why Private-Sector Retirement Planning Works The confusion in popular discussions of Social Security partly rests on the general ignorance of how an entire community can actually become richer through saving and investment. In other words, a lot of people believe (whether or not they've really thought it through carefully) that for every Sally out there who's saving $10,000 per year, there must be some Jim who's racking up $10,000 in debt. Therefore, whenever Sally starts living off her savings, people imagine that Jim must be cutting back on his own standard of living. At the communal level — so the thinking goes — everything is a wash, and we're just changing the distribution of "total output" based on which people were frugal and which were spendthrifts.

This mindset is totally wrong. I explain things methodically in chapter 10 of my introductory textbook, but here's the gist: It's possible for everyone in the entire community to "live below his means," that is, to consume less than his income and to save. The economy is then physically capable of reducing the output of consumption goods (TVs, sports cars, steak dinners, etc.) and increasing the output of investment or capital goods (drill presses, fertilizer, MRI machines, etc.). In the future, the larger quantities of various tools and equipment make the workers more productive than they otherwise would have been. That's why the standard of living can rise; the community is physically capable of cranking out more goods and services because of the past investments.

Think of it like this: During his working career, a farmer takes some of his crop every year and uses it to buy a component for a tractor. One year he buys a tire, another year he buys a steering wheel, and so on. After working for 45 years, the farmer is ready to retire. By this point, he has assembled a brand-new tractor. Now he no longer needs to use his labor to earn an income. Instead, he rents out use of the tractor to the younger workers (who otherwise would have to use their bare hands to till the soil, etc.).

From a certain viewpoint, the retired farmer would be "skimming off the top" every time he ate an ear of corn harvested after he no longer worked the fields himself. After all, that corn would be part of that year's harvest, so if the retired farmer ate it, there would be less corn available to the people who actually picked it. Yet the retired man's consumption wouldn't be financed through a "contribution" or "redistribution" from the young workers that year.

On the contrary, those young workers would be earning their full market wage (and if they were smart, they'd be saving some of it for their own retirement). The retired farmer would buy the corn on the open market, with the income he earned from renting out his tractor. There would be more corn to go around because he had spent decades assembling the tractor, and others in his cohort had built up stockpiles of fertilizer, hoes, irrigation equipment, etc.

Obviously my tale isn't realistic, but it serves to get across the essence of voluntary retirement planning. People can get out more than they put in (measured in physical terms) because of what Böhm-Bawerk called the superior physical productivity of roundabout processes. As I complained during the debates over George W. Bush's "privatization" proposals, many supposedly pro-market reformers want to get the magic of compound interest without the discipline of saving for decades.

A (Very Qualified) Defense of Charles Ponzi Above I've explained why the "Ponzi scheme" accusation is accurate, in the context of modern political debates. However, there is a very important sense in which it is unfair — unfair to Charles Ponzi.

It's true that Ponzi engaged in fraud; his victims never would have "invested" with him, had he accurately explained the business model. Libertarians therefore agree with everybody else that Charles Ponzi was a criminal and would have to face legal consequences in any just legal order.

However, so far as we know Ponzi never threatened anybody. He didn't tell struggling young workers, "Give me 15 percent of your paycheck every week, so that I can make you a fantastic return — or else I'll send goons to kidnap you."

In this respect, Social Security isn't a Ponzi scheme after all. It's more analogous to mobsters shaking down people for protection money, because otherwise "bad things could happen."

Conclusion The complaints about Social Security are accurate: The only reason it has enjoyed such "success" thus far is that it relied on increasing contributions from each new generation of workers. Now that the demographics have turned against the system, it is literally unsustainable. We will see increased taxes on workers, reduced payments to beneficiaries, or some combination of the two.

In the voluntary private sector, people can plan for their own retirement through genuine saving and investment. They don't need to extract concessions from the next generation of workers, because the retirees' prior savings allow the creation of capital goods that will provide income when their bodies no longer can do so.

Finally, in one important respect a classic Ponzi scheme is less dangerous than Social Security: It relies on fooling people into voluntarily handing over their money. Once the fraud is detected, the danger is eliminated. In contrast, American workers have no choice but to "contribute" to Social Security, whether they like the deal or not.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: ponzi; redistribution; socialsecurity; taxes
Granny enjoys ther money in Atlantic City, after cashing her SS check

Photobucket

1 posted on 09/25/2011 8:32:27 PM PDT by sickoflibs
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs

“In the long run, we are all dead.” John M. Keynes


2 posted on 09/25/2011 8:37:59 PM PDT by tumblindice (Don't Tread On Me)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LMAO; DeaconBenjamin; April Lexington; murphE; RipSawyer; Tunehead54; preacher; 1234; coloradan; ...
The Peter Schiff/Austrian Economics ping. (Washington Bankrupting our Nation by Spending your past, present and future money!)

YES IT IS!

3 posted on 09/25/2011 8:40:27 PM PDT by sickoflibs (Over-taxed means 'paying too much in taxes', not zero taxes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs

The annual surplus of Social Security has always been “invested” in only debt obligations issued by the U.S. Treasury.

So there is very little cash on hand in the OASDI Trust Funds, but over $2 trillion in these “securities”.

Trouble is, the U.S. Treasury can not redeem these for cash unless it issues more of them. That is because the Treasury has very little cash. It’s also living hand-to-mouth.

Virtually all governments in the civilized world have issued far too much debt instruments, i.e., borrowed and spent.

Since the money was not invested, but spent, it’s gone. The debt obligations must be paid for out of future taxes, the only source of money for the government other than creating it.

Yes, Virginia, any private-sector entity who operated in this fashion would, at this point, be arrested for running a Ponzi scheme just as Bernie Madoff did.

It’s not just Social Security that’s a Ponzi scheme, it’s most governments as well.

This is what happens when governments are allowed to borrow.

All that has to be done is Constitutionally prohibit additional borrowing and Constitutionally limit the money supply to a range of percentages of the annual total of all U.S. business transactions. That will naturally provide a reasonable and adequate money supply and naturally prohibit spending more than comes in as tax revenue.


4 posted on 09/25/2011 8:46:37 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We need to fix things ourselves)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs
Maybe it would have been harder to dismiss if it were compared to B. Madoff.
5 posted on 09/25/2011 8:47:37 PM PDT by MichaelCorleone (Those who love liberty love Sarah)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs

Perry got this one right. Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme.


6 posted on 09/25/2011 9:18:29 PM PDT by FreeReign
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs
1. Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme.

2. A middle-of-the-road Republican called Social Security a Ponzi Scheme. For doing this he has been labeled a foaming-at-the-mouth rightwing nutjob.

3. Therefore you can not get elected if you call Social Secuirty what it is: a Ponzi Scheme.

4. Therefore Social Security will continue to be run as a Ponzi Scheme until it collapses and takes the rest of the US with it.

5. Therefore we ought to start stocking up on beans, bullets, and toilet paper.

7 posted on 09/25/2011 9:42:40 PM PDT by who_would_fardels_bear
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: FreeReign

“Perry got this one right. Social Security is a Ponzi Scheme.”

yup gotta give him credit where credit is due.


8 posted on 09/25/2011 10:02:16 PM PDT by ari-freedom (Cain all the way)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: tumblindice

Why bother breathing then?


9 posted on 09/25/2011 10:04:27 PM PDT by allmost
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs

Yes, except with a Ponzi scheme you can get out when you realize you’ve been burned. You can’t get out of Social Security. You can file a Title 5 Administrative Rescission, but they may or may not accept it.


10 posted on 09/25/2011 10:11:44 PM PDT by TBP (Obama lies, Granny dies.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TBP

Not a “scheme.”

A SCAM.”

Social Security is the program which most clearly identifies the socialist lie inherent in the “New Deal.”

Or, as Thatcher said, “Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They always run out of other people’s money. It’s quite a characteristic of them.”

Or, as I say: “It is not a virtue to be generous with other people’s money.”


11 posted on 09/25/2011 10:44:27 PM PDT by filbert (More filbert at http://www.medary.com--GAME ON!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs
Agreed.

Some generation is going to get caught with the short end of the stick.

12 posted on 09/25/2011 10:52:55 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs

Of course it is but it is still like the third rail in politics right now.


13 posted on 09/26/2011 12:20:26 AM PDT by Republic_of_Secession.
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: fortheDeclaration

“Some generation is going to get caught with the short end of the stick. “

Yup. You can’t solve this problem by cutting “waste, fraud and abuse” or the National Endowment of the Arts. Real changes will have to be made to both social security and medicare, they will not be fun and even conservatives won’t like them.


14 posted on 09/26/2011 1:29:11 AM PDT by ari-freedom (I'm a heartless conservative because I love this country.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Republic_of_Secession.

“Of course it is but it is still like the third rail in politics right now.”

economic reality doesn’t listen to polls and politicians


15 posted on 09/26/2011 1:30:21 AM PDT by ari-freedom (I'm a heartless conservative because I love this country.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs

ME THINKS OLE PONZI WOULD BE PROUD. . . . . . .


16 posted on 09/26/2011 1:43:50 AM PDT by DeaconRed (Cold War Veteran. . . . US Army Security Agency 1964-1968)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: PieterCasparzen
Constitutionally limit the money supply to a range of percentages of the annual total of all U.S. business transactions

Thinking you know or can determine what the correct percentage is, is, as wotshisname Hayek said, the pretense of knowledge. Besides, the money supply takes more forms than greenbacks and Euros and yen. Most of my financial transactions are handshakes between computers. Very little physical money changes hands.

17 posted on 09/26/2011 3:41:57 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets (Ceterum autem censeo, Obama delenda est.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs
today's young may well get less than they put in).

Today's young, or even not-so-young like me (33) will not get a penny of what we've put in. Everyone under 40 will not get a penny. We might as well face up to that fact.

18 posted on 09/26/2011 4:37:00 AM PDT by Cronos (www.forfiter.com)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs
There are superior private account options to social security, but here is one simple proposal that everyone could understand and that would be harder to demagogue as "privatize!" or "risky scheme!":

Keep social security the same with one exception: you own the account, not the government.

You'd get T. Bond interest and retire with vastly more, your heirs would get any account surplus, and the government couldn't count it twice and spend it away.

19 posted on 09/26/2011 4:55:51 AM PDT by SupplySider
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs

I disagree. You can say Social Security is an elephant, if you define elephant as a system that looks like social security. The author is redefining ponzi schemes in a way that does not resemble ponzi schemes at all.

SS is not a scheme, scam, fraud, or socialism. It is an American institution that works, and has never failed to meet payoll, and is as strong as anything. There is no person profiting dishonestly from SS as there is in Ponzi schemes; there is no sudden collapse. There are no accounts being saved up; there are no creditors. It is silly to call it a ponzi scheme, and makes the person making the claim look like an idiot.

The author, sadly, does not understand how SS works. It would even work if there were only 2 workers to every retiree (which is the case if we had no population growth and we had 2 years working to 1 year retirement, like age 25 - 65 working, and 65 to 85 retired). Do the math. 2 workers give up 6.2% and their employers match; the retiree gets 24.8% of a full time salary. That’s it. No collapse, no ponzi scheme, no socialism.

Meanwhile, you whiners still get 93.8% of your salary to have as many private savings accounts as you want. Don’t ask the gvernment to get involved! Do your own saving without whining.

and when you retire, enjoy your SS check as a modest supplement to your real retirement savings. And quit whining - SS is never going away, never going to collapse. All that will happen is that the checks will be a little less than promised. Tough - you didn’t want the checks anyway.


20 posted on 09/26/2011 5:13:35 PM PDT by TruConservative
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: TruConservative; Gilbo_3
RE :”SS is not a scheme, scam, fraud, or socialism. It is an American institution that works, and has never failed to meet payoll, and is as strong as anything. .......The author, sadly, does not understand how SS works. It would even work if there were only 2 workers to every retiree (which is the case if we had no population growth and we had 2 years working to 1 year retirement, like age 25 - 65 working, and 65 to 85 retired). Do the math. 2 workers give up 6.2% and their employers match; the retiree gets 24.8% of a full time salary. That’s it. No collapse, no ponzi scheme, no socialism.

I think you might be the one that has been in the cave not him. Right now SS is a welfare scheme, the current benefits are being paid by the treasury bills directly adding US debt to this nation. It has never missed a payment ? (Except when it steals the money in income taxes.) That is because seniors are able to terrify those elected into borrowing the money on the unborn’s credit card and giving it to them.

It is welfare plain and simple, those with political muscle demanding the government STEAL it from the the weaker politically. That doesn't mean it will last.

21 posted on 09/26/2011 7:48:26 PM PDT by sickoflibs (Over-taxed means 'paying too much in taxes', not zero taxes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs

A ponzi scheme is a guy (like Ponzi himself) who decides he will defraud suckers by making a up an investment that never really exists. The first few investors get paid high returns, so they’ll tell their friends, and reinvest themselves. Once a large amount of investment is collected, the schemer runs away a rich man, and the investors get nothing.

So why’s this different than SS?

1. There is no schemer; there’s no one getting rich by deception; there’s no one to run away with the money.
2. There is no investment, real or fake. A lot of people think SS has something to do with investment - it does not. It is a unique thing, unrelated to the stock market or bonds or gold or any other type of investment.
3. There is no fraud. Everything is open and above board. We know where every penny goes
4. It cannot collapse and go to zero. It has a constant inflow of cash which grows with inflation and is safer than any other inflow of cash, because it is a fixed percentage of all American wages. SS will be the last thing in the country to lose income, after every other thing has fallen to zero.

It is true that projections are for SS to hand out less than it takes in. Big deal. The income is at least 75% of desired pay outs for the rest of the century. That means (a) SS checks are reduced in size, or (b) worker withholdings are increased, or (c) the withholding cut off is raised, or (d) a combination of these three things.

I think it is simply “popular” to complain about SS. I don’t think those who complain about it seriously consider the facts, like it’s only 6.2% of your paycheck (and the return to you post retirement is somewhere around 24% of your paycheck, so it’s not even a bad deal). You still have 93.8% to have as many private, non-government savings investments as you want. And it performs a function you probably don’t understand - it allows cheap labor (like $8/hour Denny workers). Without SS, those Denny workers would be condemning themselves to old age poverty, or you’d have to spend more at Dennys to cover their retirement needs. SS actually lowers the price of things for you.

I hate this pile-on on SS, and I hate the mischaracterizations of it. We are supposed to think for ourselves! Anyone who honestly believes SS is a ponzi scheme or “stealing” is not thinking for themself.


22 posted on 09/27/2011 6:51:31 AM PDT by TruConservative
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: TruConservative
RE "It is true that projections are for SS to hand out less than it takes in. Big deal. The income is at least 75% of desired pay outs for the rest of the century. That means (a) SS checks are reduced in size, or (b) worker withholdings are increased, or (c) the withholding cut off is raised, or (d) a combination of these three things."

You completely missed my point and are apparently not aware of the current situation. Forget projections, SS FICA taxes afunding a fraction of SS benefits right now, the rest is coming from new treasury bills and national debt. It is degraded into welfare now, which means it cant last in its present form.

23 posted on 09/27/2011 6:58:15 AM PDT by sickoflibs (Over-taxed means 'paying too much in taxes', not zero taxes)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs

“it can’t last in its present form.”

I acknowledge that the income will fall to as low as 75% of the outflow, but no lower for the rest of the century (that’s out to the year 2100! You expect to be around past that?). And as I say, that requires that (a) checks get smaller, or (b) withholdings go up, or (c) cutoff is raised, or (d) a combination of these three. But if you make that adjustment, it can last forever. And I give the numbers above - it can last forever with just two workers to every retiree.

It’s no “get-rich” scheme, but it shouldn’t be a get-rich scheme. It’s a “keep-poor-earners-and-poor-savers-from-starving” and a “give-a-little-spending-cash-to-the-rest-of-us” scheme, that can last for the life of the country, no problem. It’s a smart program, has been for 75 years, is right now for my dad, is probably right now for a bunch of your relatives, and will be tomorrow for us.


24 posted on 09/27/2011 7:15:32 AM PDT by TruConservative
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs; TruConservative
SS is not a scheme, scam, fraud, or socialism.

jeez, its the epitome of socialism...ya know, from each according to his means to those according to their needs...

sure, the fact that generational, governmental robbery has occured which made victims outta old folks, but passing the gubmint owned MP5 to them to rob the future citizenry doesnt make em whole...

its like forcing you, by gobmint arms, to reimburse me, for the robbery of my home...its immoral at the very least, but realistically criminal in its application...

25 posted on 09/27/2011 7:16:32 AM PDT by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson