Posted on 11/07/2011 10:01:35 AM PST by DemforBush
Authorities and doctors are warning parents who want to avoid chicken pox vaccines for their children that a new mail-order scheme to share lollipops licked by children infected with the disease as a way to create immunity in their kids is not only unsafe but illegal...
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
“You are statistically incorrect.”
Apparently you believe that I am saying that the side-effects of the vaccine are worse than those of chicken pox. I did not say this.
I am making the argument that Chicken pox is non-fatal and does not have a good protection factor, contrary to other vaccinations. This is why it should not be vaccinated against.
“Do as you wish. I vaccinated my children. They still have two eyes, are perfect developmentally, and will never get shingles.”
Well, I didn’t get vaccinated, did get infected with chicken pox when I was 7 and the same is true of my brothers, etc. You don’t seem to be winning this argument.
I agree that people should be able to do as they wish. If they wish to expose their children to unnecessary vaccination risks, than this is entirely their right to do as parents.
That’s fine, Facebook isn;t a source of medical information either. So you don’t still believe that the chicken pox vaccine causes shingles, right?
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov/04/news/la-heb-chicken-pox-party-mail-20111104
Whatever you said previously, it led you to this blind alley of ignorance and delusion.
I challenged what you posted. Were you too dense to comprehend that I challenged the above statement? Are you too dense to figure out that the above statement is a travesty of ignorance?
>>BTW, here is some information from real doctors (not facebook), on why the lollipop idea is stupid: <<
LOLOLOL!!!!
I never said it was a good idea and in fact, everyone from the FReepers, to the MSM, to all but 218 people on FB think it’s silly, but OMG never let an opportunity to get self-righteous stand in the way of a good “Yahoo” story and a couple huge threads about it.
Slamming your hand in a three ring binder is a bad idea, yet I’m sure you could find 218 people who have a reason to do it. Should Yahoo write an article about it, someone will post it here and a whole bunch of us will backslap and shake hands, agreeing about how much better we are for not doing it.
The country is going to pot and people are wasting time on 218 FB idiots that will stick a sucker into their kid’s mouth while washing down the grocery cart with alcohol wipes. Sheesh.
“Whatever you said previously, it led you to this blind alley of ignorance and delusion.”
Apparently logic eludes you.
The argument that Chicken pox is fatal to those who are immune-compromised presumes that chicken pox is not fatal to those who are healthy.
If chicken pox were in fact fatal to healthy people, then that argument would have been made. Instead, by specifying ‘immune compromised’ concedes the point at hand that chicken pox is not fatal to healthy people.
Therefore, as chicken pox is not fatal to healthy people, I believe that it is unecessary to vaccinate people for chicken pox.
“I challenged what you posted.”
You challenged something. Whatever it was, wasn’t what I actually posted.
“Were you too dense to comprehend that I challenged the above statement?”
You first argument that I amended my statement. Now you are conceding that yes, in fact, I did state that first, and are arguing that my conclusion does not match the premises.
Which is it? You keep changing your argument.
>>and will never get shingles. <<
I vaccinated my kids too but never say never.
Your post #42. If your meaning was specific ONLY TO chicken pox - it would still be ignorant and deluded.
But as posted it made no reference to chicken pox AT ALL.
It makes no sense to vaccinate an unhealthy person.
It makes PERFECT sense to vaccinate a perfectly healthy person.
Healthy people are the ones, and the ONLY ones, who SHOULD be vaccinated.
Sick people should NOT be vaccinated.
If you are already sick with the disease, vaccination for that particular disease will do nothing for you.
Vaccination for unrelated diseases when you are sick is also a bad idea.
ONLY healthy people should be vaccinated.
Your statement is a blind alley of ignorance and delusion.
Specific to chicken pox or not.
“Your post #42. If your meaning was specific ONLY TO chicken pox - it would still be ignorant and deluded.”
Ah, well, that’s a different argument. Onto argument number 3. Why would it be deluded to state this? I’ve already shown that chicken pox is not fatal to healthy people.
“But as posted it made no reference to chicken pox AT ALL.”
Given that the previous post argues that chicken pox was in fact fatal to those who are immune compromised, I think it fair to be understood that in replying to that comment, I was referring to chicken pox.
“It makes PERFECT sense to vaccinate a perfectly healthy person.”
Not for chicken pox. There’s this principle called Primum non nocere. Harming someone who is in fact healthy, is a bad thing. This is why vaccinations should not be done unless the disease is lifethreatening, and there is reasonable expectation for protective immunity.
Chicken pox fails on both counts, ergo, one should not immunize people for chicken pox.
Your comment was in response to someone who pointed out that many immune compromised people cannot get vaccinated and thus rely upon “herd immunity” - not that they were the only ones in danger from chicken pox.
Vaccines ONLY work on healthy people. Sick people should not receive vaccination.
Healthy people are the ONLY people who should be vaccinated.
Chicken pox is life threatening and protective immunity to chicken pox lasts many decades.
Your post that it makes no sense to vaccinate a healthy person is such ignorant drivel!
ONLY healthy people should be vaccinated.
When you are sick a vaccination is far too late.
You do know this, don't you?
You apparently need a very basic education on how vaccination works.
Argument number 4, now BTW.
“Chicken pox IS often times fatal to people who are not otherwise immune compromised, around 100 fatalities a year in these United States.”
That’s not what the pediatricians are saying. Given a healthy individual, and around 4 million infections a year, risk is very close to zero. All or almost all of those who died are immune compromised individuals.
“Your comment was in response to someone who pointed out that many immune compromised people cannot get vaccinated and thus rely upon “herd immunity” - not that they were the only ones in danger from chicken pox.”
The problem is that reinfection of people after vaccination substantially reduces the efficacy of herd immunity. Even if you were to vaccinate everyone, there would still be a significant risk to immune compromised individuals. This, like for influenza, is a major difference between Chicken pox, and say, diptheria, and why one should be vaccinated, and the other should not.
People need to take responsibility for themselves.
“Chicken pox is life threatening”
No, sorry, it isn’t not unless you’re already immune compromised.
“protective immunity to chicken pox lasts many decades.”
Except that it doesn’t, and reinfection is a significant risk.
“Your post that it makes no sense to vaccinate a healthy person is such ignorant drivel!”
It doesn’t, not when they are at zero risk of dying from chicken pox. Sorry. If the individual wishes to endure the vaccination, then that is their right. However, I don’t believe it’s necessary.
“You apparently need a very basic education on how vaccination works.”
Oh, so what are your credentials, that make you an expert on vaccination, since we all should rely on your authority.
Argument number 4, now BTW.
“Chicken pox IS often times fatal to people who are not otherwise immune compromised, around 100 fatalities a year in these United States.”
That’s not what the pediatricians are saying. Given a healthy individual, and around 4 million infections a year, risk is very close to zero. All or almost all of those who died are immune compromised individuals.
“Your comment was in response to someone who pointed out that many immune compromised people cannot get vaccinated and thus rely upon “herd immunity” - not that they were the only ones in danger from chicken pox.”
The problem is that reinfection of people after vaccination substantially reduces the efficacy of herd immunity. Even if you were to vaccinate everyone, there would still be a significant risk to immune compromised individuals. This, like for influenza, is a major difference between Chicken pox, and say, diptheria, and why one should be vaccinated, and the other should not.
People need to take responsibility for themselves.
“Chicken pox is life threatening”
No, sorry, it isn’t not unless you’re already immune compromised.
“protective immunity to chicken pox lasts many decades.”
Except that it doesn’t, and reinfection is a significant risk.
“Your post that it makes no sense to vaccinate a healthy person is such ignorant drivel!”
It doesn’t, not when they are at zero risk of dying from chicken pox. Sorry. If the individual wishes to endure the vaccination, then that is their right. However, I don’t believe it’s necessary.
“You apparently need a very basic education on how vaccination works.”
Oh, so what are your credentials, that make you an expert on vaccination, since we all should rely on your authority.
oh brother - if that happened it was not because of the chicken pox.
Source for your invented fact that the 100 fatalities or so from chicken pox we see in the USA are “all or almost all” immune compromised?
Now 100 fatalities a year, considering how many people get infected in the USA every year is a risk “very close to zero” - but to deny that chicken pox can be a fatal disease in an otherwise healthy child is to deny reality.
There is a significant risk to immune compromised people who could not get vaccinated, and that risk is substantially elevated by morons sending live virus through the mail and not immunizing.
My credentials? I have a M.S. in cell and molecular biology and have taken several graduate classes in Immunology. I have worked with infectious diseases in the past and currently work on several projects involving inflammation - which is an immune response.
Now what are your credentials that would lead anyone to believe that you are a credible source when giving your asinine and ignorant advice that ‘there is no reason to vaccinate a perfectly healthy person’ - when the reality is that ONLY a healthy person should ever be vaccinated?
When I first read the headline, I thought for sure it was from The Onion.
Your claim is that healthy people die from chicken pox. If that were true, wouldn’t we be seeing far more than 100 over 4 million infections?
“substantially elevated by morons sending live virus through the mail”
Agreed.
“and not immunizing.”
So people are morons for not getting the chicken pox vaccine? Really?
Let me ask you the same question I asked before. Do you believe that the chicken pox vaccine should be made mandatory?
“I have a M.S. in cell and molecular biology and have taken several graduate classes in Immunology. I have worked with infectious diseases in the past and currently work on several projects involving inflammation - which is an immune response.”
Then you should be well enough informed to educate everyone here as to the requirements for herd immunity to take effect. Different diseases have different ratios.
If we were to compare herd immunity to say, diptheria, and herd immunity to influenza, would we see substantial differences?
Yes or no?
“Now what are your credentials that would lead anyone to believe that you are a credible source”
I’m not the one arguing from authority. I’ve been arguing from logic.
For someone who’s so educated, why did you diliberately misstate my argument?
“when giving your asinine and ignorant advice that ‘there is no reason to vaccinate a perfectly healthy person’”
There is no reason to vaccinate someone for CHICKEN POX.
Let me ask you another question, do you believe that benificence is more important than non-malfeasance? Is it ok to hurt someone when you intend to do good for them?
“when the reality is that ONLY a healthy person should ever be vaccinated?”
For the fifth time. I am arguing against chicken pox vaccination, not against other vaccinations. Since you are so educated, can you at least be honest in what I am saying? Thank you.
I asked for a source, not your opinion.
There are around 100 fatalities a year in the USA from chicken pox - can you show me a source that makes the claim you made that “all or almost all” of them were immune compromised?
I don't believe any vaccine should be mandatory. But I fully support any school organization or facility that would bar entry of those who are not vaccinated.
I have not been arguing from authority either, but from facts and science.
My argument has been the same throughout - your statement that it makes no sense to vaccinate a perfectly healthy person is absolutely ignorant.
ONLY healthy people should be vaccinated.
A sick person gains nothing from a vaccination against the disease they are already infected with.
Ideal health is when a person SHOULD be vaccinated.
When they are sick they should NOT be vaccinated.
Thanks for the LATE clarification that you are ONLY talking about chicken pox.
The statement as posted was ignorant drivel of the worst sort.
With the clarification that it was ONLY about chicken pox it is still ignorant drivel.
There IS a good reason to vaccinate against chicken pox, because the disease can cause scarring,pneumonia, encephalitis,and even death. And NOT just in the immune compromised.
>>My credentials? I have a M.S. in cell and molecular biology and have taken several graduate classes in Immunology. I have worked with infectious diseases in the past and currently work on several projects involving inflammation - which is an immune response.<<
Hey, weren’t you one of the FReepers telling us that if we didn’t get the H1N1vaccine, we would all be sorry? I remember you!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.