Skip to comments.The Pakistani-Peruvian Axis
Posted on 11/14/2011 8:50:17 PM PST by Noumenon
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Wow... best essay I’ve read here in a long time.
That was perhaps the most useful analysis in the whole of Tragedy and Hope. An even more interesting book by Quigley is The Evolution of Civilizations which paints a coherent picture of the chaos which we see as history. It describes the processes through which civilizations have arisen, flourished and collapsed. There are about two dozens true civilizations in world history. And they go through the same processes.
“The Pakistani-Peruvian Axis
The problem of finding constructive patterns for Latin America is much more difficult than the problem of finding constructive priorities. One reason for this is that the unconstructive patterns that now prevail in Latin America are deeply entrenched as a result of centuries, even millennia of persistent background. In fact, the Latin American patterns that must be changed because today they are leading to social and cultural disruption are not really Latin American in origin, or even Iberian for that matter, but are Near Eastern and go back, for some of their aspects for two thousand or more years. As a general statement, we might say that the Latin American cultural pattern (including personality patterns and general outlook) is Arabic, while its social pattern is that of Asiatic despotism. The pattern is so prevalent today (1960s era - WD) not only in in Latin America, but in Spain, Sicily, southern Italy (Fukuyamas low trust societies - WD) the Near East, and in various other areas of the Mediterranean world (such as Egypt), that we might call it the Pakistani-Peruvian axis. For convenience of analysis, we shall divide it into Asiatic despotism and the Arabic outlook.
That said, I don't share Quigley's elitist views and his contempt for the common man. At the end of the day, Quigley felt that humankind would be better off under the guidance of a ruling class elite. I think we've had quite enough of that.
Quigley was a brilliant historian. His application of scientific method and anthropological science to history remains unparalleled today. Most historians relate facts and events. Quigley looked for the underlying patterns, the drivers of human behavior and culture.
This, of course was quite at odds with modern prevailing historical wisdom, most of which is infected with the Marxist outlook - the denial of culture or individual conscience in the role of human affairs.
That was an excellent essay. I would like to seriously recommend a brand new book that covers similar topics, by David P. Goldman (Spengler of Asia Times):
Take a look at the reviews posted under Amazon.
It is somewhat like reading Victor Davis Hanson or Mark Steyn (without the humor).
“... or Mark Steyn (without the humor).”
,( : >)
Replying to myself here. Here’s a link to a recent interview with Goldman which summarizes his book:
Yes, I’m familiar with Spengler’s (Goldman’s) work. The man has a remarkable and incisive mind. His latest book is on my ‘must read’ list.
Question: Was this Arabic outlook that passed to Latin America the result of the vestiges of the Islamic Invasion of the Iberian Penninsula? In other words, would Quigley say that this outlook has been bread into the Latin American Gene Pool from the many centuries of Islamic Domination of the Iberian Penninsula?
Carroll Quigley postulated that Western civilizations proceed through the following stages:
1. Mixture - different societies come into contact and produce a society with an outlook different from any of the combined parts.
2. Gestation - the period of time between the mixing of the different societies and the expansion of the civilization.
3. Expansion - the surplus generated by the society is invested in activities that benefit the civilization. This can include an increase in knowledge, increase in physical area, technological advancements that increase efficiency, etc. Civilizations make use of different instruments of expansion. Quigley calls a social organization or unit an instrument if it meets social needs.
4. Age of Conflict - The rate of increase resulting from the use of one or more social instruments slows down which results in "interesting times". The instrument can be reformed or a new instrument consistent with the civilization's outlook can circumvent the old instrument. If reform is achieved, a new age of expansion begins. If the vested interests of the previous instrument of expansion increasingly consume resources while serving no social needs, Quigley says that the instrument has then become an institution. Expansion can continue, but it is at the expense of neighbors, which leads to imperialist wars. When the vested interests have crushed all internal opposition, the next stage appears.
5. Universal Empire - typically a state or political unit on the periphery of the civilization gains power over the whole civilization. The illusion of a golden age appears. The social organization remains stagnant.
6. Decay - lack of belief in the civilization's outlook or inability to meet needs of the people leads to people opting out of the system. An age of cynicism, low cunning and despair.
7. Invasion - external forces disrupt the civilization's social organization and it is unable or unwilling to defend itself. That spells the end of the civilization.
Quigley stated that modern Western civilization as embodied by America has succeeded in arriving at the brink of the Age of Conflict stage no fewer than four times, but has always managed to reinvigorate itself by launching into a new Age of Expansion. Recall that expansion in Quigley's terms doesn't necessarily apply to the acquisition of new territory. If hes correct, were now out of options, and that weve progressed rapidly through to stage 6. As many of you know, I have my own ideas about whats going on with respect to the role that the will to power has played in modern times.
An excellent reference work on civilizational collapse appears here: The Catastrophe What the End of Bronze-Age Civilization Means for Modern Times
Yes, that's exactly what Quigley claims. We sometimes forget that the Iberian Peninsula was invaded by Muslims in the early 700s, and that the last vestiges of Islamic domination were not expelled from Spain until the late 1400s. 700 years of cultural domination will leave a lasting impression on the conquered culture. When and if a subject culture ever re-emerges, it will not be the same; it will have taken on some aspects of the subjugating culture.
Thank you very much!
You might find this interesting...
Thank you my friend.
Most likely ... now all I need to “find” is time to read it. ;-P
I remember someone here within the last week-or-so telling of having spent some time working in Saudi Arabia.
His work crew of locals, as a result of generations of inbreeding, all had some combination of one or more of bad eyes, bad ears, or bad kidneys.
Many most-likely feeble-minded, too.
Every strip mall had a hearing-aid store, an eyeglass store, and a kidney-dialysis center.
If demography is indeed destiny, then the West is in danger of succumbing to a horde of pathologically cruel and inhumane genetic defectives.
Oh, my. Was I just politically incorrect?
Unfortunately, the common man is showing that he doesn’t give a s..t. I wonder what percentage of citizens have even read the constitution, what percentage of natural born citizens?
I don’t know anything about Quigley’s politics but he seemed like an old time Democrat. Back when they were still controlled by patriots of a sort.
Quigley’s scenarios for the collapses build for centuries until the invasions. I see no possibility of an invasion ending ours.
The destructiveness of Islam is without end.
Invasions don't have to include tanks and helicopter gunships.
The New Conquistadores have been invading us for decades.
Didn't the 0bamunist crowd promise us that they were going to ..."change our conversation, change our history?" And hasn't that been the goal of every will to power-driven utopianist who seeks to effect the New Man?
Speaking to the Quigley's take on the evolution of civilizations, he's essentially correct - as are you when you observe that in th past, these stages have taken place over centuries. Not so much in modern times, though. Quantum leaps in communication and travel have acted as a catalyst to greatly speed up - and in some cases, leapfrog - some of the Quiglean evolutionary stages.
The New Conquistadores have been invading us for decades. Exactly right. It's also important ot recognize that Quigley's definition of an Age of Expansion doesn't exclusively refer to territorial ambitions.
While that is a facile and superficial remark it has no bearing on what Quigley was referring to. He was speaking of military invasions. And these are not even “Conquistadors” in any sense anyway. The Conquistadors were totally military forces.
The first part of “Evolution” was terribly boring and dry but extremely insightful and important to his view. Just the discussion of the climatic change influencing the migration patterns of early man was fascinating.
I also found it very interesting that the copies of Tragedy and Hope in the Chicago library system had all been stolen. So I had to buy my own.
I would view the IIs as more a form of mixture than the invasions Quigley was speaking of. Could it have happened in the past as a prelude to invasion? Sure but there is no chance Mexico or Canada would successfully destroy our civilization. Or even want to.
Yes, parts of EoC are a definite slog, but as is common with Quigley's work, there are fascinating insights to be had. I'll cite his analysis of the Pakistani-Peruvian axis an example - you pretty much have to slog through most of the 1300+ pages of Tragedy and Hope to get to it, but it's one of the book's gems.
I rarely pay 35 bucks for a book but T&H was unavailable even for that for yrs and after reading Evolution I had to read it. So I figured it was really three books because of its length and bought a new one.
He certainly had no hesitation in naming those involved in the Roundtable and the Council on Foreign Relations both of which gave him access to their files and papers. And they weren’t unified in their policies either. And the factions (if not total control) had and used access to the media to work out their aims.
The goal of the original Conquistadores was conquest and enslavement.
The goal of the New Conquistadores is conquest and enslavement; they are just being a little more subtle about it.
No. They are about as far from a military force as you can get.
Not all of them are even remotely competent - they’ll die like sheep.
Some of them, however, are. Those ones will be well-trained and well-funded. and their goal will be to precipitate - larger - events.
Cleon Skousen's and Gary Allen's bete noir.
Bill Clinton's idol.
The world keeps spinning and now new people find new meanings and new uses for his work ...
Yes, Quigley had a serious hate on for the Right and the common man in America. Yet, the man was capable of astonishing insights into history, culture and human nature. I’ll take ‘em and use them as I will.
Oh, please. There probably isn’t a fart from any of these idiots which isn’t immediately smelled by government agents.
They are comic relief compared to our true enemies such as that one in the White House and the rest of the Democrats.
Skousen points out that Quigley's main thrust in the book is that world socialism will triumph, and there is nothing that can be done to stop it.
Bill Clinton, while giving a speech at a Democrat National Convention stated, "Dr. Quigley was right!" Clinton helped institute more and more socialism in the American government and way of life.......
Skousen's book exposes not only Quigley, but a whole host of folks, mostly American, who did their dead level best to help make Quigley's apocalypse come true........Skousen exposes the Big Banker/Secret Society/Tax-exempt Foundation/Communist/Socialist nexus, and how they go about destroying anyone, who is well known, who tries to promote traditional Americanism over socialism.........The most recent well known victims being Sarah Palin and Herman Cain.
Currently, here in America, the collectivist batons are waved by the Clintons, much of the Democrat leadership, The Big Liberal Media, RINOs, and, of course, the Obamas.......
P.S. I believe we are at a point in our history where that the only way to stop this madness is to clean up our personal lives and spend a lot of time praying to the Creator who made us, work towards keeping all of the commandments and work towards making America truly great again......
Next step: similar deconstruction of California liberals.
Those five pages were worth the entire slog through the book. If you step back and take a long look at what’s going on in California, it hews too uncomfortably close to the axis Quigley describes.
It’s recipe for civilizational collapse and desolation.
Some people dismiss Quigley at their peril, I think. I may not agree with his take on the direction for human civilization, but he’s dead bang on the money in much of his analysis.
I am fascinated...would you be willing to provide a link or (as brief as you wish, I don't want to impose) a synopsis?
This is off the wall & a bit irreverent — hate to attack the dead — but I couldn’t help wondering if Steven Jobs’s personality had a lot to do with his Syrian father. In his dealings with people he seemed very Arabic — hotheaded, vain, cunning, vicious, impetulant. At the same time he considered himself a poet & a romantic (other Arab traits). “Reality distortion” is a very Middle Eastern mentality.
Just my .02.
More on topic — I always felt there was a strong Arabic undercurrent in Latino societies. Part of it may have to do with the Spanish conquerors, many of whom probably intermarried with Arabs/North Africans. Likewise for Italy.
Western-style democracy only works in a gentleman culture, like Britain (formerly, anyway) or Japan. Not where it’s tribal or diverse.
For later re read.
Ping for Later.
While the Rupublican circus clown car troupe capers and disports themselves, here’s a Tragedy and Hope bump.
You all MUST read this.
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