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The Coming Collapse of China: 2012 Edition
FP.com ^ | December 29,2011 | GORDON G. CHANG

Posted on 01/02/2012 7:12:49 PM PST by Hojczyk

I admit it: My prediction that the Communist Party would fall by 2011 was wrong. Still, I'm only off by a year

In the middle of 2001, I predicted in my book, The Coming Collapse of China, that the Communist Party would fall from power in a decade, in large measure because of the changes that accession to the World Trade Organization (WTO) would cause. A decade has passed; the Communist Party is still in power. But don't think I'm taking my prediction back.

Don't believe any of this. China outperformed other countries because it was in a three-decade upward supercycle, principally for three reasons. First, there were Deng Xiaoping's transformational "reform and opening up" policies, first implemented in the late 1970s. Second, Deng's era of change coincided with the end of the Cold War, which brought about the elimination of political barriers to international commerce. Third, all of this took place while China was benefiting from its "demographic dividend," an extraordinary bulge in the workforce.

First, the Communist Party has turned its back on Deng's progressive policies. Hu Jintao, the current leader, is presiding over an era marked by, on balance, the reversal of reform. There has been, especially since 2008, a partial renationalization of the economy and a marked narrowing of opportunities for foreign business

Second, the global boom of the last two decades ended in 2008 when markets around the world crashed.

Third, China, which during its reform era had one of the best demographic profiles of any nation, will soon have one of the worst. The Chinese workforce will level off in about 2013, perhaps 2014,

(Excerpt) Read more at foreignpolicy.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: globalist; politicalcorrectness; propaganda; vanities
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 01/02/2012 7:12:55 PM PST by Hojczyk
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To: Hojczyk

Well, if you support communists, they will thrive. If we did with the USSR what we do with Red China, the USSR would also be around today.


2 posted on 01/02/2012 7:15:44 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Hojczyk

I really don’t think china will fall to pieces this decade either.


3 posted on 01/02/2012 7:20:55 PM PST by mamelukesabre
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To: Olog-hai

China is not communist in terms of economy structure. And as economy is a basics of politics and society under Marxism they are CINOS (Commies In Name Only).


4 posted on 01/02/2012 7:21:49 PM PST by cunning_fish
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To: Hojczyk

A modern totalitarian state collapses either when its rulers no longer automatically kill even the hint of opposition, or when its economy collapses. China still kills dissidents, and the US is still filling their coffers. No chance the Chicoms are out of power anytime soon.


5 posted on 01/02/2012 7:23:05 PM PST by GenXteacher (He that hath no stomach for this fight, let him depart!)
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To: mamelukesabre

China is very likely to fall but it won’t be pleasant for everyone.


6 posted on 01/02/2012 7:23:21 PM PST by cunning_fish
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To: mamelukesabre
‘Every province in China is Greece’
7 posted on 01/02/2012 7:29:26 PM PST by Utmost Certainty (Our Enemy, the State | Gingrich 2012)
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To: cunning_fish

Yeah, I’d pretty much call China fascist these days.


8 posted on 01/02/2012 7:31:36 PM PST by drbuzzard (different league)
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To: GenXteacher

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A modern totalitarian state collapses either when its rulers no longer automatically kill even the hint of opposition, or when its economy collapses. China still kills dissidents, and the US is still filling their coffers. No chance the Chicoms are out of power anytime soon.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You have to watch Chinese social structure carefully before any assumptions.

They have a huge 300 million middle class and twice as large underclasses living for a dollar a day strruggling into a middle class.
A social evevator works nice for determined enought but it is powered with growth.
No growth = big trouble for Chicom gubmint and there is a single way to toss a hundred million unwanted surplus young males.


9 posted on 01/02/2012 7:31:49 PM PST by cunning_fish
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To: Utmost Certainty

A communist closed economy can withstand much worse conditions than an open free capitalist economy.


10 posted on 01/02/2012 7:37:21 PM PST by mamelukesabre
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To: Hojczyk
China is growing, it's us that is shrinking.

China has mastered the hybrid communist state. The people are still not free and essentially slaves to a regime without any input. But you have semi free markets and they allow for foreign investments, technology, business practices and management techniques to come in. Trade and the forces of a free market shape these new economies but the old power brokers simply put themselves on top as CEO of some major state run energy conglomerate such as the Russian Gazprom. The real power brokers remain the same old people as before, they simply become the Kingpins in these new pseudo free economies which you also have in Vietnam, Russia etc. These economies are largely doing fine because unlike the past where they were isolated, ignored supply and demand curves, were to slow to react because everything was planned centralized... they today are often MORE capitalist that the US / Germany or other mixed economies of the West when it comes to dealing with dead firms that aren't making money, or changes in technology or demand based on consumer taste etc. I would bet money that I could take an idea and go to production in China with this idea in less time, with less costs, with less restrictions than in the US.

11 posted on 01/02/2012 7:38:07 PM PST by Red6
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To: Hojczyk

The figurative collapse will be preceded by the literal collapse of the Three Gorges dam.


12 posted on 01/02/2012 7:40:29 PM PST by Thrownatbirth (.....Iraq Invasion fan since '91.)
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To: Hojczyk

I think it’s only a matter of time before China comes apart under the communists. Time, innovation and the desire for profit is relentless. You can always count on change and with today’s technologies, change happens faster.

I don’t think the younger Chinese are going to be as obedient as their ancestors. I wonder how much North Korea’s existence is dependent on the Chinese. A China undid would create a lot of interesting scenarios.like the breakup of the USSR. China could very well come apart in a similar way.


13 posted on 01/02/2012 7:43:15 PM PST by meatloaf
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To: TigersEye

Pei-Ping.


14 posted on 01/02/2012 7:44:18 PM PST by Army Air Corps (Four Fried Chickens and a Coke)
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To: drbuzzard

The Wall St Journal had a great editorial about 10 years ago which asked, “If Hitler hadn’t fought WWII, and if the Third Reich had lasted 60 years or so, what would Nazi Germany look like today?” The WSJ answer: 21st century China.


15 posted on 01/02/2012 7:44:27 PM PST by ClearCase_guy (Nothing will change until after the war. It's coming.)
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To: Red6
I would bet money that I could take an idea and go to production in China with this idea in less time, with less costs, with less restrictions than in the US.

I'd bet money that your idea would be taken, put into production without your knowledge, and that they would beat you to market with it, if that idea had any potential at all.

If you're going to tout less restrictions as a benefit, you also need to admit the problems. Respect for intellectual property rights is not a hallmark of that nation.

I've known several companies that have experienced this.

16 posted on 01/02/2012 7:45:37 PM PST by RegulatorCountry
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To: Red6

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2011/0614/1224298864155.html

Last year China experienced 280,000 of what the government calls “mass incidents”, including petitions, demonstrations and strikes, both peaceful and violent, and invariably linked to anger over corruption, abuses and the illegal seizure of land.

This marks a steep rise from 87,000 incidents in 2005.


17 posted on 01/02/2012 7:52:02 PM PST by listenhillary (Look your representatives in the eye and ask if they intend to pay off the debt. They will look away)
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To: RegulatorCountry
Can an entrepreneur prosper more in China than in the US? No, I don't think so. As you point out, the Chinese would rip off the entrepreneur. They have no respect for intellectual property rights.

But the other question is: Can the Nation of China quickly put ideas into effect, quickly build factories, and quickly bring new products to the marketplace? Can the Chinese GNP quickly benefit from somebody's brilliant idea? You bet!!

In the US? Quick factories? Quick to market? Benefits to our GNP? Uhhhhhhhh ... I don't think so. We crush domestic economic initiative. The Chinese do not crush such initiative -- they merely rip it off.

18 posted on 01/02/2012 7:53:46 PM PST by ClearCase_guy (Nothing will change until after the war. It's coming.)
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To: Hojczyk

I think the premise of the book is misplaced.

I do think that China has a rough future but it’s because of the struggle btwn Communism and the people’s ever increasing embrace of free enterprise; the political philosophy is separate from the country itself. Communism in China is dying.

I think this book would be better if its premise were that too many countries allow the birth and growth of a Communistic society. I think that’s what is happening in China and the Commies are on the downside of that growth curve. In the U.S., unfortunately, the Commies may still be on the growth side of the curve with what’s his name at the helm. That equates to a very ugly next 20+ years for the U.S. unless the people are in fact fed up and toss all the Commies out in the upcoming election. We must do all we can to help that happen!


19 posted on 01/02/2012 7:56:21 PM PST by Rembrandt (.. AND the donkey you rode in on.)
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To: Red6

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
China has mastered the hybrid communist state. The people are still not free and essentially slaves to a regime without any input. But you have semi free markets and they allow for foreign investments, technology, business practices and management techniques to come in. Trade and the forces of a free market shape these new economies but the old power brokers simply put themselves on top as CEO of some major state run energy conglomerate such as the Russian Gazprom. The real power brokers remain the same old people as before, they simply become the Kingpins in these new pseudo free economies which you also have in Vietnam, Russia etc. These economies are largely doing fine because unlike the past where they were isolated, ignored supply and demand curves, were to slow to react because everything was planned centralized... they today are often MORE capitalist that the US / Germany or other mixed economies of the West when it comes to dealing with dead firms that aren’t making money, or changes in technology or demand based on consumer taste etc. I would bet money that I could take an idea and go to production in China with this idea in less time, with less costs, with less restrictions than in the US.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Do you realize a thing you described has nothing in common with communism?

It is called Fascism and Nazy Germany&Imperial Japan are historical examples of this system.


20 posted on 01/02/2012 7:56:27 PM PST by cunning_fish
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To: Hojczyk

Incorrect again. China is one of the manufacturers designated as such by the rich, globalist masters of the universe, who have outlawed new, small manufacturing starts in most counties and cities of the USA (keeps potential competition—other families, down). China has also established new trade of its products in exchange for natural resources (oil, metals, etc.) from other “developing” (third world) countries.

Many paid propagandists have been harping for over five years now, the feel-good canard that China has begun to collapse. They’ve done so out of fear that higher prices of Chinese goods and freight fuel will slow their import/merchant rackets down. There’s no China collapse, although the collapse of our USA and most of the rest of the West may slow it down a little.

We Americans should get started with some real work again (making useful things), but that’s not likely.


21 posted on 01/02/2012 8:05:56 PM PST by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
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To: cunning_fish
No,

Because the means of production are still in the hands of a few. They (the power brokers) just today pimp their people out as in China. You still have a small group and essentially a single party. You have no free men, no rights, no ownership of what really matters. Books have been written on this and I talked about this in 1997 already and wrote about it here in 2003 (if you care go back): There really is no difference between communism and fascism except in a self described academic way that ignores the means and the end and rather focuses on the colors of flags or titles. Both arrive at the same point but declare themselves to be the antithesis of the other. They fight each other to the death because they are competing for power, but both do the same things once in power. Stalin or Hitler, no difference. Mao or Stalin, no difference. Except academically where with semantics and rhetoric one tries to carve some difference out.

22 posted on 01/02/2012 8:06:07 PM PST by Red6
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To: Hojczyk
Mr. Chang worked in Red China representing clients in what passes for a legal system. He knows what he talks about and often appears on John Bachelor's radio show covering a variety of things not just Red China.

So many seem to swoon over the marvels of Red China's capitalism. Yes, the Commies are still in control but relax Red China is essentially capitalist now, they assure us.

No it ain't. The last I heard they prefer "Socialism with Chinese Characteristics." Deng, et al. studied and adopted Lenin's New Economic Policy (NEP).

Source

Following the Russian Revolution "War Communism" had total control over the economy leading to such things as shortages of all kinds, particularly food, there were "disgruntled workers, peasant unrest, and open rebellion among the soldiers and sailors stationed on Kronstadt Island, Lenin resolved to reverse direction."

NEP as a "concession to market forces soon led to the denationalization of small-scale industry and services; the establishment of trusts for supplying, financing, and marketing the products of large-scale industry; the stabilization of the currency; and other measures, including the granting of concessions to foreign investors [Lenin called them: useful idiots] . . . the Soviet economy revived . . . [there was] the re-emergence of a 'capitalist' class in both the countryside (the kulaks) and the towns (NEPmen)".

As with all capitalist economies there were ups and downs. There was "anxieties within the party about bourgeois degeneracy and the loss of revolutionary dynamism." Stalin was now in charge and that was the end of NEP, kulaks, and NEPmen.

Deng, et al. regularly consulted with experts including Armand Hammer the wealthy American and owner of Senator Al Gore Sr., at al. Hammer was in Russia during the 1920s.

The Chi-Coms have not and will not make Stalin's mistake. They understand Lenin who noted that NEP had to be pursued "seriously and for a long time."

There have been lots of news about Red China extorting and outright stealing intellectual property, technology, and know how. Once the Chi-Coms are confident that they can provide the innovation needed they will seize the "useful idiots'" property and kick them out with nothing. That's NEP.

I hope the useful idiots are not so dumb to beg Congress for a TARP to compensate them for their losses. We citizens will insist that they be tried for treason in response.

23 posted on 01/02/2012 8:11:10 PM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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To: Hojczyk

Over 150,000 companies in China are state owned. All of the banks are state owned. In many of the most remote counties of the USA, there are zoning laws against any manufacturing on remote, private properties.

Starve the B. Become more self-sufficient, and stop buying.


24 posted on 01/02/2012 8:17:11 PM PST by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
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To: cunning_fish
Today,

These regimes simply incorporate a hybrid approach where they let the reigns a bit loose but still hold them in their hands. They allow trade and limited communications, they want that technology, the business practices and management techniques as well as the direct investments in capital machinery etc. They want their select students to study abroad and learn key things... But at the end of the day the people in that nation are still slaves under a regime that has no semblance of real rule of law, democratic principals, or rights for citizens etc. All the means of production are still held by the same old people that 30 years ago sat in the Polit Bureau. Instead of wearing a green uniform with a giant bus driver hat and huge medals or a blue uniform as in China, they today put on a suit and give themselves titles like CEO. If you get in their way, you end up dead or like him: http://www.boston.com/news/world/europe/articles/2005/10/23/billionaire_sent_to_siberian_prison/

The difference between today and 30 years ago is a perception of freedom and the fact that we get slave labor from there (China) or resources (Russia).

25 posted on 01/02/2012 8:19:05 PM PST by Red6
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To: Olog-hai

And, the USSR would be just like Russia...


26 posted on 01/02/2012 8:22:19 PM PST by Thunder90 (Fighting for truth and the American way... http://citizensfortruthandtheamericanway.blogspot.com/)
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To: Hojczyk

Under communism, businesses are owned by the government. Under fascism, business can be privately owned but is controlled by the government. The West is one of the two now (overly controlled by monopolies with stated concerns of environmentalism, animal worship, feminism, homosexualism, phony property values excuses, family-busting programs, etc.). China is both.


27 posted on 01/02/2012 8:22:24 PM PST by familyop ("Wanna cigarette? You're never too young to start." --Deacon, "Waterworld")
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To: Red6
There was a time when Lenin ran things that Russia was just as, if not "MORE, capitalist that the US / Germany."

That was the plan .. the New Economic Policy (NEP) which Lenin needed immediately to build an economy to save the Revolution and for the long term to support his communist state. Eventually the State would take everything. Stalin came to power and ended it way too soon.

Deng copied NEP and the Chi-Coms will not make Stalin's mistake but they will seize foreigners' property and kick them out with nothing when (IF!) Red China can make it without extorting or outright stealing intellectual property, technology, and know-how.

IMO.

28 posted on 01/02/2012 8:27:16 PM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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To: Hojczyk
I think China will begin to have serious problems. Because one of our Freepers has warned that he believes FR is one of the sites the Chinese government monitors, I will not tell you the basis of what I am about to write.

Protests are becoming a bigger problem for the authorities and the army all the time. The Communist Party has released figures--you remember this number has to be low so as to not make the party appear weak--that there are nearly 140 protests daily.

Provision of electricity in the urban areas is a major problem. People who live in the cities live in the same district as the mayor to help alleviate this problem for them personally.

Water and air pollution is a major problems. Daily, in 200 Chinese cities of one million or more, the problem is on going. Of course, the government expects the problem to be under reported so the people will not see weakness in the governmental structures.

The problem of governmental corruption is huge. Students report this may be the biggest problem the government faces.
The population of China is aging, primarily because of the one-child policy. Traditionally, aged parents lived with their children. Who is going to take care of the aging population when they are too old to work? The implications of this for the Chinese army is also staggering.

The gender imbalance is huge. There are currently (again, likely an under-reported figure--119 men for every 100 women because of the one-child policy. That means there will be 40 million men who will never have a chance to marry because there are not enough women to go around. Testosterone is a driving force the army may eventually have to contend with, from men who are sexually frustrated. How peaceful will such confrontations likely be?

While Chinese students in the west are frequently ridiculed for their over-achievement and their push for excellence, the Chinese educational system is woefully inadequate. The Chinese insistence on rote learning as a way of teaching is not fulfilling China's needs. Because of this, China graduates many who are inadequately prepared to compete in the world. Chinese figures--again, likely under-reported--say that only about 15 per cent of graduates from China's technical schools, are employable. So that raises what is to me an interesting question: would you want to be that astronaut that China wants to put on the moon?

And this one, we can learn from: the Chinese government must work hard to keep their immigrant workers employed. The workers are frequently put to work on huge projects that are unimportant and not needed. (Remember the city post on FR that apparently has no one living in it?)

I am no expert.
29 posted on 01/02/2012 8:28:15 PM PST by righttackle44 (I may not be much, but I raised a United States Marine)
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To: Hojczyk

He makes several credible arguments.

I’ve always wondered whether the traditionalist ChiCom leadership will be capable of responding to a rapidly changing population that starts to view itself as entitled to a new kind of global manifest destiny.


30 posted on 01/02/2012 8:58:48 PM PST by bigbob
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To: Hojczyk
Without ever increasing exports China is doomed. The EU was to be the salvation of China. Now the EU is collapsing and cannot buy the shoddy junk China seeks to dump on the world

And to complicate matters further for the Chinese, Africa is becoming hip to their game. There is greater and greater unrest in the African nations regarding the Chinese presence in Africa. China figured that the Africans would go along with their schemes of letting China rip off their resources for pennies because the Chinese were going to be their 'friends' and not treat them like the western powers did.

Well the Chinese have received a rude awakening as Africans now are telling the Chinese to go home and leave Africa alone. The Africans are now seeing that the Chinese are not friends to anyone but other Chinese.

The big rub comes when China looks at the balance sheet and realizes that in order for them to continue growth, they must have access to cheap resources. And nations all over the world are demanding a fair price for their raw materials

China is now between a rock and a hard place as they move into the mid 21th century
31 posted on 01/02/2012 9:08:46 PM PST by Rooivalk
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To: cunning_fish

No, they’re most definitely communists. Everything with them is a means to an end to spread communism worldwide.


32 posted on 01/02/2012 9:13:21 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Hojczyk

The capitalization of socialism(communism) has begun..
-OR- the socialization of capitalism its the same thing..

And will continue until people see that socialism is a political disease..
and democracy is the carrier..


Democracy is the road to socialism. -Karl Marx

Democracy is indispensable to socialism. The goal of socialism is communism. -V.I. Lenin

The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism .-Karl Marx


33 posted on 01/02/2012 9:45:55 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole...)
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To: Hojczyk

bflr


34 posted on 01/02/2012 11:05:25 PM PST by Captainpaintball (We don't have much time left)
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To: Olog-hai

Guys, any trade is against communism. Rejecting enterprise, market and trade is a main idea of communism. You can’t tell China has communism + enterprise, market and trade no matter how many limits you are including there. It is like claiming making sex in a name of virginity (as soon as it is a safe sex:) And your limits aren’t fair anyway because China as it is built via enterprise, market and trade.
Have you ever talked to a Chinese? They are nazy under red banner, there is no communism there.


35 posted on 01/02/2012 11:22:10 PM PST by cunning_fish
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To: Rooivalk
The big rub comes when China looks at the balance sheet and realizes that in order for them to continue growth, they must have access to cheap resources. And nations all over the world are demanding a fair price for their raw materials China is now between a rock and a hard place as they move into the mid 21th century

Sounds like the Japanese just prior to Pearl Harbor.

36 posted on 01/03/2012 5:03:03 AM PST by Caipirabob ( Communists... Socialists... Democrats...Traitors... Who can tell the difference?)
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To: righttackle44
That's a great summary of "the way it really is." Thanks! Looking forward to seeing it often so all can know the truth.

I have no first-hand knowledge but all Chi-Com horrors including the killings of at least 60 million Chinese citizens are contemporaneous events for me beginning in the 1940s with the killings of the "landlords" as our Commies, dupes, and dopes cheered Mao's "agrarian reformers."

My favorite Chi-Com quote vis-a-vis us is "We can lose [insert current population of America here] how many can you lose?"

37 posted on 01/03/2012 6:42:29 AM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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To: Rooivalk
Thank you for the summary of the Red Chinese plunder of their African "colonies." It is good to know that "Africa is becoming hip to their game."

I hope you can post this information often so everyone gets to know the Chi-Coms' game as it spreads to all continents -- including ours it appears.

38 posted on 01/03/2012 6:50:59 AM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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To: cunning_fish
Don't know where you get those ideas, but they aren't out of the Manifesto at all. Communism has absolutely nothing to do with rejecting the market; it has to do with working to take it all over for itself, and that by any means (if trade with non-communist states is what it takes, i.e. until such time as those states are subverted to communism, then that's what they'll do); plus infusing its own antireligious and anti-family philosophies (abolition of the family, abolition of religion, abolition of rights of inheritance, et al). Maybe you didn't remember that we did have similar relations with the USSR until the end of WWII?
39 posted on 01/03/2012 7:45:55 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: hosepipe

How come all socialist and communist countries are antidemocratic, then? A republic cannot work without representative democracy, and neither can a constitutional monarchy; these need separation of powers and the rule of law to prosper rather than autocracy. Communist states have pseudodemocracy, where the power lies with appointed bodies and the elected bodies act as a rubber stamp; same with socialist entities such as the European Union. All communists (save, arguably, in South Africa) have come to power via violent revolution instead of being elected into power; they degenerate into non-democratic oligarchy or autocratic monarchy/cult of personality.


40 posted on 01/03/2012 7:58:12 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: meatloaf
One big issue involves demographics. China's "one child" policy resulted in larger numbers of women going into the workforce once their one child got older. This greatly increased the workforce.

The downside now is that one child will now have to support two parents and four grandparents as they get too old to work. Ain't gonna happen.

Also, if war threatens to erupt, parents are NOT going to like the possibility of losing their only child on some battlefield.

As far as North Korea, I could see the Chinese going in and dealing with the situation by killing the men, and distributing the women among their own people.

41 posted on 01/03/2012 9:42:14 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.)
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To: Olog-hai

[ How come all socialist and communist countries are antidemocratic ]

They are NOT anti-democratic.. The government OWNS the people as property.. The only citizens are members of the communist party.. They have a vestigial vote.. not a real vote but an alleged vote.. All democracy’s are lies..

No democracy has ever been democratic..
An elite always runs things...


42 posted on 01/03/2012 9:46:35 AM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole...)
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To: hosepipe

That’s hilarious. So you’re alleging that the Founding Fathers set up an autocracy run by an elite?


43 posted on 01/03/2012 9:48:24 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

[ That’s hilarious. So you’re alleging that the Founding Fathers set up an autocracy run by an elite? ]

America is not a democracy nor is it a democratic republic..

America is a Constitutional Republic.. thats WHY democrats try and are trying to make the Constitution obsolete..

and are being pretty successful..


44 posted on 01/03/2012 9:53:13 AM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole...)
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To: Olog-hai

Hosepipe is 100% correct. This is a republic, not a democracy. FedGov™ is a construct of the states not vice versa.


45 posted on 01/03/2012 10:00:03 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: hosepipe

You’re confused. Are politicians elected in the USA, or do they inherit their positions in government from their fathers? Do we have a president for life, whose father was the previous president? Do we have separation of powers and the rule of law, or not? You’re the one that implied that the USA is ruled by elites and that the Founding Fathers set it up to be so. The definition of a “republic” cannot exclude the people choosing who represents them in government; otherwise it is not a republic. The same goes with a constitutional monarchy, where the difference is the monarchy and the trappings thereof.


46 posted on 01/03/2012 10:00:25 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: central_va

Do you know what a republic is?


47 posted on 01/03/2012 10:01:43 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

Clearly you don’t.


48 posted on 01/03/2012 10:02:26 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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To: Rooivalk
And to complicate matters further for the Chinese, Africa is becoming hip to their game. There is greater and greater unrest in the African nations regarding the Chinese presence in Africa. China figured that the Africans would go along with their schemes of letting China rip off their resources for pennies because the Chinese were going to be their 'friends' and not treat them like the western powers did. Well the Chinese have received a rude awakening as Africans now are telling the Chinese to go home and leave Africa alone. The Africans are now seeing that the Chinese are not friends to anyone but other Chinese.

For a while, I've been thinking that China had plans of playing "Cowboys and Africans" in Africa once they had a critical mass of Chinese over there. We will see if the Africans kick them out before this happens.

49 posted on 01/03/2012 10:04:20 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.)
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To: hosepipe

olag hai, the boy is hopeless.


50 posted on 01/03/2012 10:04:29 AM PST by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
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