Panetta Nominates Notorious Navy Captain For Admiral: Intentionally Shot Down Friendly RF-4C in 1987

aero-news.net ^ | Wed, Feb 22, 2012 | Aero-news

[Hulka]

I met Jon Ault many years ago. We were both flying fighters in the USAF at the time—different jets but were flying in the same exercise.

He tells the story of the shoot-down and it sounds pretty straight-forward — the guy in the F-14 selected the hot missile, not the captive/inert training missile, went Master Arm—On and pickled. Whoosh, away went the wrong missile. This sort of thing has has happened before in the Air Force (Alaska, sometime back in the late 80’s).

At any rate, just before being shot down Jon was flying hi-G “S”-turns to bleed-off altitude and airspeed prior to making a run alongside the carrier for a photo-op.

He saw the F-14 slide onto his six, kinda close but not too close, and didn’t think much about it and went back to looking forward and doing hi-G turns. . .then BANG!!

The jet shuddered, fire-lights went on, smoke filled the cockpit and he lost control of the jet. He punched and was almost immediately picked up by one of the carriers helo’s.

Jon was pretty-darned worried as he floated waiting for pick-up. You see, he thought HE had run into the F-14 by not paying attention to where the jet was at all times.

When the helo landed on the carrier and Jon jumped off the helo, he saw a whole lot of brass-—every high-ranking officer on the carrier and an Air Force general on-board and waiting.

“Yikes,” Jon thought, this is not going to go well.

Jon was thinking they were going to keel-haul him and send him to Davy Jones’ locker.

As Jon was sinking to his knees to plead for his life and career, it astonished him that the Admiral and General both ran up and started apologizing extensively for the mishap.

Jon lived like kings on the carrier for the next few days.

[Gil4]

I guess my comments might go a little against the grain. This guy’s career probably should have ended in 1987, but it didn’t. He has served 25 years since then - at some point in time he needs to be allowed to move past even a big mistake. If it was a career-killer, the REAGAN administration should have killed his career.

Ten years ago I didn’t really care that GWB had a DUI in the 70’s, and now I don’t really care that this guy shot down a plane in the 80’s. What kind of officer is he NOW?

I will grant that he could be a butt-kissing, PC, political hack - after all, the Obama administration wants to promote him - but I don’t know that to be the case. With the facts presented so far, i have no problem with this guy being promoted.

[Hulka]

Why I said “Ault” was obviously an error. Ross was the guy. Sheesh. . .good thing I’m not flying fighters today. . .

[Hulka]

Though I did know an “Ault” that flew F-4’s. . .he never made captain. . .nice guy but not much of a pilot.

[PIF]

John McCain destroyed three planes during his brief flying career.

—
And in one crash - his last one before getting his wings - he punched his way through the canopy, instead of usilizing one of the other 3 methods of getting out ... high-ranking Naval daddies covering and cleaning for the son’s screw ups are common it seems.

[RicocheT]

A US Navy officer who has a dad who is an admiral can make a lot of goofs and still make high rank. Look at Sen. McCain’s poor record up to being taken prisoner. His prisoner status and his dad made his claim to later fame.

[EEGator]

I used to live about 10 minutes down the road from NAS Jax. I met a fair amount of pilots that were stationed there. Sounds like you had some cool assignments. Thanks for serving.

[TheOldLady]

Click the red pepper!

Don’t Veg Out
Become a Hero; Donate Monthly

Sponsors will contribute $10
For each new monthly sign-up

[LoneRangerMassachusetts]

John McCain destroyed three planes during his brief flying career.

2 more, and he would be considered an ‘ace’ by the enemy

Ain't nepotism great.

[ColdSteelTalon]

You have got to be kidding? This figures for the left wingers....

[af_vet_rr]

You left out the part where the Air Force pilot's career was eventually ended due to an injury from the ejection, and that the military booted him out with a medical discharge just short of when he could have retired with a regular pension.

And for those outraged that Dorsey was somehow able to survive something that should have ended his career while the Navy and Marine Corps routinely end the careers of officers and NCOs who do far less things, well you should be outraged.

But let's not kid ourselves here. Many of us are ex-military. Dorsey's dad was a graduate of the Naval Academy and he was a higher-up in the Navy, I think he went on to get three stars. Dorsey's dad's friends closed ranks around him and kept him in the service. Academy folks of any service try and protect their fellow graduates and they look out for the kids of their fellow graduates. That's the way it's been for a long time.

You can bet good money that had Dorsey's dad been an NCO or somebody who had never been in the military, Dorsey would have been out on his ass, if not in more serious trouble.

At the time it happened, when I heard who his dad was, I joked that the Annapolis Mafia would somehow save his career or at least make sure he wasn't punished. I never thought all these years later that he would not only still be in the Navy, but up for an Admiral slot.

[tanknetter]

There are three pages of discussion from 2006 on this over on the old Tomcat Sunset Forum. To quote:

A F-14 Tomcat downed a USAF RF-4 during an exercise in the Med after getting the call "Warning Red, Weapons Free", which was a standard exercise call at the time (vice Weapons Tight or Hold). The nugget pilot was alarmed by the call and asked his RIO if he was supposed to shoot. The infamous reply was "Yeah, go ahead and shoot em". Of course, the RIO meant making an exercise shot call, but the pilot was not on same wavelength and armed the jet, selected Sidewinder and shot the RF-4.

Fast forward....the USS Saratoga plunked the hapless and demoralized aircrew out of the water who it turned out had no idea why their Phantom departed controlled flight and thought their careers were over. When told they had been shot down in error, their morale improved knowing they wouldn't be saddled with burden of losing a jet to unknown causes.

From the article in this thread, regardless of whether he had pull from his Dad and USNA Ring-Knockers, it looks like the guy went on to build an impressive career in non-flying/desk-jockey reserve billets.

In that regard, and although the analogies are pretty different, it should be recalled that Chester Nimitz rose to the position of CINCPAC in WWII and the rank of 5-Star Admiral despite having run his first command (a destroyer) ashore early in his career. What saved him was that rather than leaving the service after what should have been a career-killing event, he became the USN's expert on diesel engines and rehabilitated himself through a new career in the submarine service.

So before passing judgement on this guy, I'd like to know a lot more about what he did with his service AFTER the shootdown.

[cva66snipe]

It's probably just coincidence, but at the time of the incident, Dorsey's father, James Dorsey, was commander of the aircraft carrier USS America. A year later, he became assistant deputy chief of naval operations at the Pentagon and later became a three-star vice admiral.

I don't doubt the incident happened but the writer has some wrong facts. The LTJG Dorsey in question was likely either a senior in high school or a freshman or sophmore in college when his dad was C.O. of USS AMERICA. Capt. James F. Dorsey, Jr. Feb. 1981 - July 1982 Dorsey relieved the C.O. I had a few months after I got out in 80. Source

[cva66snipe]

I can’t find any info to say when Vice Admiral Dorsey actually retired. Looking at his picture as a Captain my guesstimate would have been he stayed maybe 4-5 more years after making Rear Admiral. Dorsey likely made Rear Admiral at change of command leaving the America.

[cva66snipe]

Looking at this article http://www.military.com/news/article/admiral-nominee-once-deliberately-shot-down-friendly-aircraft.html it looks like a major communications problem back at the ship as well. Several things come too mind. Was he the actual one supposed to be in the exercise or was he alert plane for actual legit unauthorized approaches too the carrier? This would also explain why he recieved NJP. If he was a part of that exercise he was not suppose to have even been loaded.

[Impy]

This doesn’t sound good.

[cva66snipe]

The thing of it is there is no telling how much actual influence Dorsey's dad might have had. The article itself is poorly written and isn't accurate. Look at a few post before this one. Dorsey's son's plane was not supposed to have been armed meaning not loaded before leaving ship. On the other hand there is at least or was at least one likely two F-14's on deck ready to go or up in the air in that era to respond to real threats when a carrier was underway in that era. Put that together with Operations is monitoring ALL communications between planes as well as the ships radar etc. Permission to engage & fire would come from a person much higher than LTJG Dorsey in the Operations room back on the ship even as far up as the Admiral on board. It sounds like he shot what he thought was a threat too the ship. Was he in actual visual of his target? Hard to say. Were the identifiers on? We don't know.

I have talked in years past to guys on the ship and they said Captain Dorsey the pilots dad was Old Navy Gung Ho no nonsense.

One other thing is this even major screw ups do not always end carriers. The last man to hold the rank of Fleet Admiral early in his career ground his ship. But Chester Nimitz went on to become a legend.

I think more went on than what we were told and it involved more persons {higher up} than most know about.

This was during the Cold War and pilots and everyone on ship took serious aircraft approaching the carrier. Vice Admiral Dorsey was in his position because Reagan's people help put him there. The military had gone through some serious rebuilding and this included putting Old Salts into top positions. A lot of time has past and a lot of sea stories and scuttlebutt get added to events as well.

[cva66snipe]

Correction: The planes involved in the operation to intercept Air Foce planes were not supposed to be armed. That doesn’t mean armed planes weren’t already up and I think that was what likely happened. LTJG Dorsey may not have been part of the operation as at least two F-14’s were alswys kept armed and ready to go during that era to deal with unauthorized intruders.

[TankerKC]

As I read this story, I knew where it was headed. I just didn't know if it would be in the story.

It's probably just coincidence, but at the time of the incident, Dorsey's father, James Dorsey, was commander of the aircraft carrier USS America. A year later, he became assistant deputy chief of naval operations at the Pentagon and later became a three-star vice admiral.

No, it's not a coincidence. Time for a war story.

When I went to USAF Officer Training School in 1990, there was cocky trainee who said that he had washed out of ROTC prior coming to OTS. NOBODY washes out of ROTC and gets a chance to go to OTS. NOBODY who washes out of ROTC gets to go to pilot training. Especially in 1990, when the USAF *thought* it had to many young pilots.

This kid was a slacker, a buffoon during leadership exercises and had bottom-of-the class academic scores. Still, he graduated and was commissioned.

When we got to pilot training at Vance AFB, OK, he informed us that there better be more that one F-16 slot, because he was guaranteed one.

He still was cocky and a rock in the classroom. He couldn't get his EPs right in standup and flew like he had hams for hands.

On a solo, he entered the traffic pattern in the wrong direction.

During this time, folks were washing out for the slightest thing (because of the pilot glut). He continued to make errors and bust check rides. Another student punched him after a formation solo sortie because he was so unsafe.

Why? His daddy was a fighter wing commander and his brother was already an F-16 pilot.

One of the first thing they asked us when we arrived was if we had any high ranking military or government relative...we even filled out forms, so no connected student would be washed out.

There were three categories of students who wouldn't wash: Women, minorities and those who were connected.

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks Impy.

The 1988 investigative report was scathing. The Associated Press got a copy through the Freedom of Information Act. It reads, in part, "The destruction of USAF RF-4C was not the result of an accident, but the consequence of a deliberate act. His subsequent reaction demonstrated an absolute disregard of the known facts and circumstances. “He failed to utilize the decision-making process taught in replacement training and reacted in a purely mechanical manner. The performance of Lieutenant Timothy W. Dorsey raises substantial doubt as to his capacity for good, sound judgment."

IOW, he'll wind up Chairman of the Joint Chiefs sometime during Zero's second term. So, definitely, stay home if you don't like the Republican nominee.