Posted on 03/07/2012 5:42:45 AM PST by thackney
Natural Gas or LPG for those Tokyo taxis?
Ford Transit Connect CNG taxis starting to swing into action across U.S.
http://green.autoblog.com/2011/09/10/ford-transit-connect-cng-taxi/
Sep 10th 2011
The next time you hail a cab in Los Angeles, CA you could be jumping into the back seat of a vehicle that’s fueled by clean-burning compressed natural gas (CNG). That’s because California Yellow Cab of Orange County has become the state’s first taxi company to put CNG-fueled Ford Transit Connect vans into service. California Yellow Cab says ten (and soon more than 120) natural gas Connects are on the roads and ready to pick up passengers in the Greater Los Angeles Area.
Meanwhile, over in Chicago, Taxi Medallion Management says it has a dozen Ford Transit Connect CNG taxis in service. And in Connecticut, two cab companies are waiting on Ford to fulfill orders for 70 CNG-fueled Transit Connect Taxis.
Later on, CNG-burnin’ Transits will ship out to Las Vegas, NV and St. Louis, MO. Philadelphia, PA is expected to get in on the CNG action, too, once city officials there approve natural gas machines for taxi duty.
I don’t understand why the national trucking industry, with federal prodding and tax incentives, isn’t moving toward converting to natural gas.
It can and should be a couple of decades or so process. I would envision converting the long haul carriers and cross-country movers, like Allied Van Lines, first. Interstate truck stops would be ideal locations to begin developing a national network of natural gas commercial terminals. Once in place at truck stops, selling natural gas powered passenger cars and trucks would begin to make more sense.
At some point the large commercials such as Kroger, USPS, Walmart, etc. could probably provide natural gas terminals for their vehicles at their maintenance facilities. Newly constructed gasoline stations could begin offering natural gas. QuikTrip could probably just do it at their hundreds (thousands?) of locations.
Again, there probably would need to be federal, state and perhaps local tax incentives to speed the process along.
Anyway, what’s the deal? Is it simply political at the moment? We probably need to get Republicans in control to get the natural gas flowing. Obama and his ilk are too much into wasting $billions of taxpayer dollars on green energy schemes that don’t work.
The challenge for long-haul trucking is the refueling of Natural Gas. There are stations but they are still limited.
Some have started in the business.
http://pressroom.ups.com/Press+Releases/Archive/2011/Q1/UPS+Clearing+the+Air+with+New+LNG+Tractors
Much of the Natural Gas fleet vehicles have started with smaller service areas rather than long haul trucking. A fleet service center that vehicles return to each day can handle their own fueling. Garbage Trucks, City Buses, Port Trucks and the like have been the bigger starts for Natural Gas as a fuel.
http://www.startribune.com/business/136161523.html
http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/news/936273-196/trash-trucks-burning-natural-gas-are-quieter.html
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008691112_naturalgas31m.html
Their is a growing number of commercial natural gas refueling stations, but it is still quite limited nationally.
http://www.truckinginfo.com/news/news-detail.asp?news_id=75765
Since you mentioned Wal-Mart as well.
http://www.investmentu.com/2011/July/natural-gas-vehicle-market.html
Other info at:
http://www.greenfleetmagazine.com/natural-gas
Well, if we switch to natgas, the supply of both will increase. Sure, some of the "multi-carbon" species of natgas will be siphoned off as chemical feedstocks (ethylene, propylene, possibly some butylene), but I seriously doubt the chem companies will take the entire supply.
What's the typical ratio of C to C2 and C3 in shale gas, anyhow?
You cannot run propane in a diesel engine by itself. The propane would blow the heads off the diesel. Two low of an autoignition . A small amount increases the HP but it builds a hell of a lot of heat.
Switching to a gasoline based engine would be the cost factor. Do not think the math is there to produce a 600 bhp motor. And in a car, if you wish to give up 2/3 of your trunk for a fuel tank, well that can be done.
Thanks for the info.
Anybody who thinks they’re going to get 4000 psi nat gas tanks for 1000 bucks doesn’t understand the system.
I heard a guy on CNBC quote Waste Management (the trash truck guys) saying one year payback on their rigs switching diesel to nat gas.
The folks who can put in a fueling rig at their home base facility will be the ones doing it first I think.
Obviously as diesel skyrockets in price the decision gets easier.
All three systems require unique tanks, distribution systems, and carburetors, though nothing has to be invented to use them in production vehicles.
No such thing as typical. Just like in traditional fields, the ratios vary all over the place.
Eagle Ford in Texas is very wet, an oil formation on one side with a gas formation on the other and blended in between.
Haynesville is very dry gas with almost no natural gas liquids at all.
That is why today Haynesville drilling has been falling off while Eagle Ford and other wet formations are booming. The liquids have become the money making target for much new drilling and the Natural Gas is a by-product.
Natural Gas vehicles have been available straight from Honda for many years. Look up the Civic GX.
And the LNG should get used up before it gets above cryogenic temperatures. That's why it's more suited for dual fuel tractor trailers. You fill up with both LNG and diesel, and run off LNG until your LNG tank is empty, then run off diesel until you get to another LNG fuel source.
Propane, I think, noticing the large tank took up a decent portion of the trunk space.
If it was economical, the trucking industry would already be doing this...
Bottom line is that diesel engines are the most efficient for doing heavy work, and moving freight is the most common form of that work. It’s simple physics and chemistry—the diesel engine gets the most out of the stored energy in diesel fuel, and it does this better than any other engine/fuel combination. I don’t see natural gas overcoming that primary advantage.
I believe that maintenance costs are also an issue—natural gas powered vehicles have traditionally been more complicated and more expensive to maintain, and you also have to factor in the increased cost of storage and transportation of the fuel itself.
At some point, IF the cost of natural gas becomes so significantly lower than diesel, you may see more movement in that direction. This will ONLY happen on it’s own, if the economics make it realistic.
Government will only get in the way and mess things up....like it always does.
Thanks. I tried to search and it appears both are in use now but I could not tell if either were common or had been in use for many years.
You need to look at the huge price difference of dollars per million BTU of Natural Gas versus Diesel.
The trucking industry is making the change already in areas were the fueling is available, which is very limited so far.
It has been a Chicken/Egg issue. Nobody wants to invest a pile of money to build a commercial fueling station without significant vehicle traffic using CNG. Few people want to buy CNG vehicles without sufficient places to refuel.
I’ll link you to a related article.
I finished concrete for a short time...in SoCal...in the late 70's. We had a couple trucks that were gas / Natgas equipped. We would switch the fuel to Natgas..on the FRWY..and pray that it would work. It generally did....
I guess my point is...we've had the technology for quite some time.
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