Posted on 06/09/2012 10:49:03 AM PDT by Colonel Kangaroo
I see corporal punishment, applied for real offenses, balanced with an otherwise gentle demeanor and a general loving attitude, as generally beneficial and not at child abuse at all.
I may well be 100% wrong on the Sanchez case itself, but I cannot see the general condemnation of corporal punishment.
Really, how does it do that?
What if your kid gets hit and, 30 minutes later, thinks, "I can take that?"
You’re definitely right about that as well. I think the things that have bothered me the most even after 22 years on my own is the emotional abuse and the ramifications that resulted from growing up in an environment like that. I have my physical scars and resulting pain that serve as a daily reminder, but the emotional scars are so much worse to deal with...
[My Dad dislocated my shoulder when I decided at 16 years old to fight back with more than words - in hindsight I am VERY lucky I wasn’t hurt much worse considering he was more than twice my weight, 6 inches taller, and was trained in hand-to-hand combat through the military (AF) - I still got one heck of a punch in to his temple that sent his glasses flying at least 15 feet up against the wall that gives me a strange satisfaction to this day - despite the fact he could have easily killed me at that point, and perhaps not even realized it until it was over. I’m not proud of losing MY temper and actually striking out physically. I look back and wonder how I - not a fighter in any sense decided to even try to take him on, but it ultimately had the desired result. He NEVER hit me again after that. I guess I’m one of the *lucky* ones in some regards.]
Doctors can readily see the damage in my shoulder and repair it almost as good as new, the emotional damage though is something I have to conquer pretty much on my own even though I’ve got a great support network...
I truly will never completely recover from all of that, but I have learned to accept it, and grow from it, and use my mistakes to try to be a better person - not a perfect person, just a better one in comparison to how I used to be when I was young with such a bitter heart and words, and trying to find a path different than the one shown to me.
So many abused children as adults cannot get over that pain and even live a semblance of a normal life, if they even realize how much it really has hurt them at all... I’ve seen that all too many times with other family members and friends. The cycle continues and that becomes the abusive parent’s “legacy” among those who truly know - no matter how *upstanding* they are in a community, or not.
We all have to answer for the things we have done in our lives, and I don’t think there is much that could really be worse than to figuratively poison a child’s mind and heart. I would never want to be a person who showed up before God, having no clue just how much harm I had caused, frankly - only to be shown by God Himself.
I will say one thing though - as I often feel my Mother and Grandmother *with me* whenever I am reminded of them, feeling them *near* and such, I have NEVER *seen* nor *felt* my father again after his passing... To me that says more than enough - either he no longer exists, is stuck in some perpetual hell or limbo, or if somehow he was truly repentant God is keeping him under “supervision” of some sort! LOL
Anyway, I didn’t mean to write so much - especially as this thread is about a young boy who needs our prayers, as do many others who suffer like this child, but in private completely unbeknownst to those around them at all. I credit having an early understanding of God, and an instinct for justice for being able to put the worst of my past behind me. I’m so very lucky that way...
I'll give you an example. When I was three years old I was habitually acting up in church. There was a park next to the church building and mom would take me for a walk in the park so I could run my excess energy off. But after a while, she sensed that I could do better and I was just acting up to get a walk in the park. And since she loved and knew her child, she was right. She warned me that I was a big enough boy that I couldn't do that anymore. But I didn't believe her and I went wild to get my trip to the park. She took me out the door as always, but instead of a walk in the park she took me into the car and gave me very robust and unpleasant spanking. Now that made a believer out of me! I've never, ever disrupted church services since then.
And in an epilogue to the story, a few months later, when I was still 3 years old, I served as the ring bearer at my oldest brother's wedding. Being the wild soul that I am, I disrupted the rehearsal. My mother took me out of the building, promised me that if behaved correctly in the ceremony I would get a toy and promised me that if I disrupted the wedding I would get a whipping. She had already made a believer out of me with the park incident. I was the perfect ring bearer and folks wondered how such a little fellow could have done so well. But it wasn't magic, my mom knew her son and made a believer out of him through corporal punishment. Done correctly, a kid will need it less and less as they get older and will grow up learning that antisocial behavior can have dire consequences.
It’s like Bizarro World. Britain is going to hell in a hand basket, yet we get more truth from their papers than ours.
that is one dippy interpretation of the video, “softly” hitting him, “softly” knocking him down, get real
Amen I say, it’s a very good bet the boyfriend is a loser and more often than not that is who is banging the little girls and beating the boys.
Dear Bon,
Thank you for your work in helping horribly abused children. As a survivor myself I understand how hard your job is - to see that kind of suffering on a daily basis.
I must tell you though - do not EVER refer to ANY of us survivors as “DAMAGED GOODS” again — EVER, EVER, EVER! With an attitude like that you will NEVER be able to truly help these children. They will distrust you because they can FEEL how you “really feel” on the inside so much more than you realize. NOT ALL of us are incapable of understanding what was done to us is wrong, and NOT ALL of us are they type that will continue the abuse to the next generation.
I have to explain that I had to quit a class in college when during an Intro to Psych class they brought up the topic of abused children and the effects of abuse (of all kinds). The things in that textbook, the way they spoke of abused kids EXACTLY like “damaged goods” made me physically sick to my stomach. It was nothing I hadn’t heard from the *adults* and teachers around me since I was old enough to realize they were talking about kids *like me*. Had I listened to that it only would have compounded my problems that much worse! I know so many who even after counseling will never allow themselves to experience the joy of parenting due to constant fear they will turn into their parent(s). And, so many others who never even allow themselves to find love in the world because how they feel on the inside is reflected in what all the *experts* think of them. We see and hear so much more than you can realize. Even if you think we are *too young* to understand...
WE are not the *damaged* ones, the perpetrators ARE. WE are responding completely NORMALLY to an extremely ABNORMAL situation...
You may wish to read through some of my other posts here...
I know you were definitely not meaning to hurt anyone with your words, but that phrase alone is so incredibly condescending, and victimizing to even those of us who have worked so hard and so long to overcome the things done to us...
I have to say though - there is a time and place for discipline - even on a VERY, VERY rare occasion for corporal punishment (a smack on the hand, or a spanking - with hand on bottom for very serious situations that require an immediate response for the safety of a child, but even that is so few and far between it’s hard to classify it as “punishment”). AND, I agree completely with you when it comes to an older child who is perfectly capable of understanding the words you are saying, and reasoning behind them, and also understanding of what consequences you are protecting them from that there really is NO reason to strike them - restraint if they are physically lashing out, but never striking AT them. We might disagree on that point, but keep in mind that what you see on a daily basis is a result of a HUGE overstepping of that line, an nowhere near the realm of *punishment* or *discipline*. By giving the message of *zero tolerance* when it comes to any type of physical interaction between parent and child, it WILL get swung too far back to the other side where a survivor may fear disciplining their child AT ALL.
I am by no means a perfect parent - there is no parent in this world that is. However, with two grown children, and two teens with whom I share a close relationship with, who have never felt the need to truly *rebel* in the classic sense that there is much more to being a good parent than simply never striking a child, EVER. Like I mentioned in another post - a two-year-old child reaching for a red hot burner is GOING to get their hand smacked by me BEFORE they touch it and forever deal with having melted their fingers together! And, a 2-year-old child who runs across the street without looking or pausing at ALL when they see the neighbor’s dog WILL get a heck of a spanking IMMEDIATELY as the spanking will make them think twice and hopefully never get run over! (Again, we’re talking about toddlers, and not leaving any bruising or ANYTHING like that, or even close to it... We’re NOT talking about parents who beat their children, or use that type of discipline long past the time that the child can truly understand what’s going on - by the time the child is about 4 the time for methods are usually over with completely. There is only a very small window of time where it is effective, frankly.)
I’m just as angry about people who try to justify this particular case where clearly this man is an abusive SOB who deserves to be put in jail to suffer (and that is even too good for him). Just please do NOT use that phrase again as it rips open those very emotional scars you work so hard to heal in others... It taps into that shame that abusers instill in their victims, and to live in our society is hard enough without facing the judgement of others - especially those who are dedicated to helping us.
Thanks for your consideration of what I’ve said. I will deal with the little dagger that got twisted just a bit more - I only bleed a little now that the scar tissue has grown and holds it all in place most of the time - but, as for others (especially those who still harbor their pain inside, and haven’t reached out for help)? Those two words can do so much more to reinforce self-loathing and shame than you could ever realize. Troubled, or haunted by the effects of abuse are perhaps more apt describers because *damaged goods* can never be repaired enough to be *sold* without a *discount* or at *clearance* prices, and survivors have SO MUCH MORE to give that their value - when recovered - can be even higher than those who have never been tested, and never truly understand.
PS - I don’t know what the rates are in RE: to adoption, but for the record my father was my adoptive father. Also, in regards to the mothers you deal with - you cannot always judge them based upon what you believe a normal reaction should be. It took me a VERY long time to understand and forgive my mother for not leaving my father and taking us with her. The truth was - she was so broken down emotionally by him, and dealing with her own devastating health issues that she didn’t have a real choice. Leave with us and likely die within a few months, or stay and do everything she could to console us and teach us with her wisdom? I know how hard it is, but please try not to be so judgemental of some of these people. Again, they are responding rather *normally* to what is an extremely *abnormal situation* that those who have never lived it can never truly understand...
I'm with you - that wasn't a 'father' that was a sadist. And the neighbor? Thank God he was there ...
It’s very hard to tell the difference.
Corporal punishment was outlawed in California schools after a number of cases of outright beatings of children by school officials that resulted in hospitalizations.(I’ve seen the photos). What one considers corporal punishment, another sees as child abuse. Where do we draw the line?
If you saw someone beating a dog on the street or in a yard would you call the cops? How about a woman? I would w/o hesitating, even though I didn’t know the extenuating circumstances or back story.
I remember an old DA with 30 years of experience dealing with child abusers telling me the ONLY thing that stops abusers is JAIL. Counseling, anger management programs, 10-step programs, whatever-the-hell it is — not one of them work, not one. Most of them grew up abused as well.
All we can do is prevention, tell young girls the red flags of abusers, have abusers tell their stories (of course, teens think we’re wrong and don’t know what we’re talking about — until THEY come back years later as one of the tellers of surviving abuse). And, as I mentioned before, some women allow the new man to beat the living hell out of their children because they’re afraid of being alone or don’t want to lose the man.
One young women I worked with two years ago was found this past January along the side of the freeway — murdered and thrown out of a moving car like a piece of trash. She thought she’d escaped her abuser... She left behind a three year old and a baby.
Yes, Liberty. You are right. Your dad sounds like a royal loser and I am glad you punched him.
My mom pushed me straight backwards and I went down and hit my head on the floor when I was four. She would jump on me and knock me to the floor and hit me. She hit me over the head with a plate when I was about 10. I have never gotten over it. I can remember seeing her spank my sister with a metal spatula once. She was hell on wheels.
Kids don’t learn from that. They get desperate, they are shocked, knowing that these people are supposed to love them but the people don’t love them. I can’t imagine anything sadder.
I spanked one child maybe 10 times and I regret every time except when he cussed me, that one I don’t regret. He really resents me for it and I wish I had stuck to my original instinct which was not to spank. I never threw things, hit anyone over the head with a plate or knocked anyone down. All was very controlled but I still wish I hadn’t.
Kids DO NOT “need” physical punishment. They need love and a relationship with a parent. The parent has to follow the straight and narrow in order to earn the kid’s respect. No drugging, drinking, adultery, fornication, acting like a control freak, cruelty etc. Returning good for evil, sacrificing for their family in a Christ-like manner. And keeping their big mouths shut. No cursing. I’s not easy being the adult.
The rod and staff of the Bible is the straight narrow obedient road of the commandments, not a beating.
You hit the key with your story... There is a VERY small window of time in which true corporal punishment works, and if it is TRUE corporal punishment and not abuse it works well to kind of get the child’s attention that there IS a line there. I probably wouldn’t have used the same method for that situation as your Mom, but understand I’m not judging her, and if I put myself in her shoes maybe I would have!
However, there IS another line - and that is the one a parent crosses when the physical lashing out occurs repeatedly, through anger, and accompanied by venom, shaming, ridicule, etc... PARTICULARLY when a child reaches the age that they can truly understand what’s going on. I have to say that any truly physical punishment of an adult to a child beyond that age is DEFINITELY not going to bring about the desired result - even if it APPEARS to have done so (for the time being at least...). Ditto for a child younger than that who even if they can speak are still not going to receive the desired message, and will only learn bitterness and fear.
I can count the number of times on my hands that I was *forced* to be around my father once I turned 18-years-old (family events). After 1997 when we buried my Mother, I never saw him again - he died 2 years ago. I grieved for the loss (finally) of knowing I would never know a good relationship with him, but I also knew that there was NOTHING in the world worth subjecting myself to even his presence after the death of my Mom. Even in death he reached out and beat the crap out of me - reaching me a full month after his passing through his *final wishes*. Yeah, that was REALLY hard for a while because it ripped everything open again. Still, I wouldn’t change the decision I made to cease all contact - the risk to me mentally and physically was too great to even attempt any type of repair to our relationship while he was alive. I do not regret that decision, and wanted to let you know that while some may not understand a decision like that - there are definitely those of us who do...
Discipline isn't punishment. Furthermore there's no reason to spank and it is an ineffective method if you're trying to instill discipline. We just do it because we can, out of tradition, and to relieve our frustrations in an immediate way.
Good parents discipline, they don't hit. It sends the wrong message and undermines parental authority. Reread your Bible and focus on Christ's teachings if you're a Christian. If you're a Jew you can just stick to the OT, but even there it is misinterpreted.
Go and read it for yourself and stop listening to your pastor. They're all trained by the same people so you've got groupthink, just like MBA programs. That's the great thing about having the Bible - we can read it and think about it ourselves.
Then look into the research on spanking. Dr. Dobson is wrong and corporal punishment of your children is wrong, counterproductive and unnecessary. It's a bad habit and one worth breaking.
Discipline isn't punishment. Furthermore there's no reason to spank and it is an ineffective method if you're trying to instill discipline. We just do it because we can, out of tradition, and to relieve our frustrations in an immediate way.
Good parents discipline, they don't hit. It sends the wrong message and undermines parental authority. Reread your Bible and focus on Christ's teachings if you're a Christian. If you're a Jew you can just stick to the OT, but even there it is misinterpreted.
Go and read it for yourself and stop listening to your pastor. They're all trained by the same people so you've got groupthink, just like MBA programs. That's the great thing about having the Bible - we can read it and think about it ourselves.
Then look into the research on spanking. Dr. Dobson is wrong and corporal punishment of your children is wrong, counterproductive and unnecessary. It's a bad habit and one worth breaking.
They didn’t get that way because of spanking.
Yes, there is never a case where corporal punishment is in the best interest of a child (with the exception of the severly deranged who self-multilate in those rare, exceptional cases certain physical punishments that inflict pain have been shown to make a difference).
Just a question for you - do you work with abused children, or survivors of those who have continued the cycle and turned into perpetrators? I was under the impression you were dealing with these children to prevent them from continuing their mistakes, dealing with adult women in an abusive situation is a different beast altogether. All I know is that my Mother was a rock for me, and without her I don’t know what I would have done. When I was grown and after she was gone I realized just how badly she had been abused by him before I was ever even born... Ultimately, he was even responsible for her death and although I managed to get him charged with elder abuse, he was never charged with attempted murder. I probably could have won a wrongful death suit against him, but I was too young (24yo) to even know there was such a thing until a year later. The way you spoke in a post about mothers being too stupid, or too afraid to leave - another post of yours about the woman who ended up murdered points to another reason why so many stay. A LITTLE compassion, at least when there isn’t participation and tacit approval is called for with these women.
NOTE to men who have suffered from false accusations by bitter ex-wives and such - and those who are abused by the WOMEN in their relationship - please trade all of the gender descriptions above, and in all of my posts on this thread to know where my heart is. I by no means want to imply that it is only men who are perpetrators of horrific abuse in many ways, shapes, and forms. I know very well that is not the case as my own nephew was almost killed by my sister, and it was her new husband who took the rap FOR her, and obviously didn’t do anything to stop it before it got to the point where my nephew would be dead if not for some extreme life-saving surgery and the grace of God. Too many in our world make assumptions that only men are capable of the type of rage, hatred, anger and control issues behind acts of abuse.
Excellent posts, both of you. Parental authority doesn’t need hitting, spanking, or corporal punishment. It isn’t effective and you get better outcomes without it.
There seems to be some misunderstanding among Christians about the Bible authorizing and/or encouraging this. Coupled with some “old school” approach to parenting that isn’t applied today. Most Boomers and ealier generation were raised “old school”. If it was so great why are their kids so screwed up then?
Excellent point and you’re not a victim, but a survivor. Have you ever read Frankel’s book Man’s Search for Meaning? If not I highly recommend it.
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