Posted on 06/10/2012 12:45:09 PM PDT by SoFloFreeper
We're all adolescents now
The house lights go down. Spinning, multicolored lights sweep the auditorium. A rock band launches into a rousing opening song. "Ignore everyone else, this time is just about you and Jesus," proclaims the lead singer. The music changes to a slow dance tune, and the people sing about falling in love with Jesus. A guitarist sporting skinny jeans and a soul patch closes the worship set with a prayer, beginning, "Hey God …" The spotlight then falls on the speaker, who tells entertaining stories, cracks a few jokes, and assures everyone that "God is not mad at you. He loves you unconditionally."
(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...
“The house lights go down. Spinning, multicolored lights sweep the auditorium. A rock band launches into a rousing opening song.”
For many of these sort of entertainment churches, it’s a business decision. Whatever they jettison of tradition, there is a tenet of Christianity that always seems to survive unscathed, the tithe, upon which the basis for the entertainment worship is built.
That’s what drives this trend - profit.
Amen. It’s not about the physical it’s about the spiritual. Jesus was most concerned about our hearts. There are congregations around the world that meet under trees, in homes, in schools, in warehouses, etc. does this make them any less reverential or godly?
Anybody who could hear Mozart’s Ave Verum Corpus and not agree with Bonhoeffer about this must be tone-deaf.
I am ALL for music in worship. And all for all sorts of music in worship.
I am not for all levels of excellence in music.
Our former and current bosses of the music we use at the “Life-Teen” Masses are not only sound and pious, but pretty good musicians themselves. So while the rock ‘n roll at what I snottily call “Missa Cacophonica” is not my fave, I don’t think they’re the focus of evil in the modern liturgical world either.
And as far as I can see, the kids at those Masses.... well, first, they’re in church. This is good. And then I see many of them at the after-Mass Bible studies. This is good. And many of them engage in the various outreach ministries of our parish. So by and large, I have to support this part of our ministry.
I hope the above gives proper credit, because, upon further review, I will stick with “meretricious” for some of the hymnody. Chaste sexual intercourse is a union of the bodies of those who share a union of intention and commitment. Prostitutes sell a physical and false emotional rapture separated from intellect and will.
In Christianity we find people I call “consolation junkies,” for whom religion is a matter mostly of wonderful feelings. But I find in reading the lives of holy people, that while SOMETIMES they felt wonderful, a lot of the time they didn’t feel so great. But they believed and they did, however they felt at the time.
An approach to worship which stresses feeling good at the expense of personal commitment in response to the graceful call of God is therefore rightly called meretricious.
How’s that? Is it coherent and reasonable? I am fo’ sho’ open to comment and disagreement.
Hey MM:
I been BUSY! I’m spending right much of my online time at Facebook. And various activities at my church are keeping me jumping.
— Parish Pastoral Council chaird00d.
— “Director of Formation (edumication)” for my chapter of lay Dominicans.
— Co-boss of the local “Stand Up for Religious Freedom” rallies.
— #2 guy for RCIA (our program for adult inquirers into the Catlick Church).
— Guy who does whatever they tell me to do.
— guy who’s WAY too old for this stuff!
And bizarre papist activities on the side!
Quix will love this: last Sunday (not yesterday), after the crack-of-dawn Mass,I drove to DC and met up with two lay Dominicans, one an Eastern Rite Cat’lick of some kind. We prayed together in a chapel at the Shrine and then got in his car. We drove a circuit beginning at the Supreme Court and going around the Capital and the White House and back to the Supremes. One guy read psalms and prayers while I sprinkled a liter of holy water and the other guy scattered blessed salt (I guess that’s an Eastern Rite thing) as we drove.
So maybe it’s stupid, but we exorcized and “claimed” the gummint as best we knew how. There are a lot of sad and oppressed people in DC who need the best prayers we can offer, and I am content to be ridiculous for IHS.
Do you really understand what it means by the word "new" in relation to the word song? How do you explain your definition, which I understand to be something that was recently composed, in the context of the entire palsm posted below? Remember that the Hebrew word for new is chadash {khaw-dawsh'}. The root of the wordcomes from the word for the new moon, describing the renewal of the moon. And this work means somthing that is new, renewed, restored or repaired.
Do you really thing it is talking about different words, music and rhythym? Or, like all the songs in the Word, it is talking about giving thanks to God for renewing us from a bondage to the slavery of sin and a broken world? Hymns as old as those found in the New Testament are still NEW songs because they are about how God renewed us! (NOT about how man can come up with new notes, different words, etc.)
Shout for joy in the Lord, O you righteous!
Praise befits the upright.
2 Give thanks to the Lord with the lyre;
make melody to him with the harp of ten strings!
3 Sing to him a new song;
play skillfully on the strings, with loud shouts.
4 For the word of the Lord is upright,
and all his work is done in faithfulness.
5 He loves righteousness and justice;
the earth is full of the steadfast love of the Lord.
6 By the word of the Lord the heavens were made,
and by the breath of his mouth all their host.
7 He gathers the waters of the sea as a heap;
he puts the deeps in storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the Lord;
let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him!
9 For he spoke, and it came to be;
he commanded, and it stood firm.
10 The Lord brings the counsel of the nations to nothing;
he frustrates the plans of the peoples.
11 The counsel of the Lord stands forever,
the plans of his heart to all generations.
12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord,
the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!
13 The Lord looks down from heaven;
he sees all the children of man;
14 from where he sits enthroned he looks out
on all the inhabitants of the earth,
15 he who fashions the hearts of them all
and observes all their deeds.
16 The king is not saved by his great army;
a warrior is not delivered by his great strength.
17 The war horse is a false hope for salvation,
and by its great might it cannot rescue.
18 Behold, the eye of the Lord is on those who fear him,
on those who hope in his steadfast love,
19 that he may deliver their soul from death
and keep them alive in famine.
20 Our soul waits for the Lord;
he is our help and our shield.
21 For our heart is glad in him,
because we trust in his holy name.
22 Let your steadfast love, O Lord, be upon us,
even as we hope in you.
You know, I like the new stuff. Ever since I was a kid going to church in the south Louisiana in the 1960’s. We were rockin’ back then. Brother Swaggart could really play the piano, (He WAS Jerry Lee Lewis’s cousin). My husband had to move us to the Northeast for his job, and I thought all the churches were dead. Still do.
We can't look at God's Word in the view that it will support what we like (or don't like). We have to look at it in context. We have to prayerfully look at what it teaches us about the character of God, and the character of man - which leads us always to our need for God to redeem us. And that is the "new" song. The context of the Psalm from which you quoted, and the context of all of Scripture says this. It does not say it is about constantly making up new music with new lyrics. It is about the constant renewing of the minds of God's people as they are transformed more and more into His image (Romans 12).
It isn't about what I like, or what you like or what Johnny likes - it has always been about WHO God is - and who we are and are response to that. And the more we see Him as He is and ourselves as we are, the more our hearts will sing to Him that he is renewing us. This is the heart and soul of the true Christian's life.
There are many talented musicians out there. It isn't about how much the music is alive or dead or which instruments are played and which are not, or whether the words and/or music was composed last week or 500 years ago, or whether there are microphones and eleborate sound systems or just someone singing a psalm. It is about how a particular congregation is discipling their flock in the Word and Truth of Jesus Christ. It always has been - it always will be. From eternity past to eternity future.
Sorry, trying to equate Jesus feeding the multitude because they hadn’t eaten in a long while and needed the food isn’t the same as not wanting to wait for your latte.
What’s a battle of “withs?”
Listen, Pastor, I can’t help it that you seem to be taking a difference of opinion so personally. You say we should each worship our own way, and yet you call my conviction “being judgemental” and “legalist” while you sit there doing exactly what you are accusing me of-—judging. If you want your coffee, or your candy, or whatever during the service, have it. I don’t have to think it’s appropriate, and if that makes you angry, I’d say it’s your issue, not mine.
I respectfully suggest that perhaps you should have a look at the Scriptural qualifications for pastors which require them to not be quick-tempered and arrogant. You really don’t have much of a “bedside manner”.
I heartily encourage such circuits of prayer—preferably walking but that was fitting given the distances.
I suppose this would be anathama to RC’s but I believe in sprinkling anointed oil and the Blood from Communion in such efforts as well.
However, in terms of D.C., territory, I think the globalists have already scheduled it’s cleansing after a fashion . . . with an extremely hot fireball or several.
The’ve evidently been preparing to transfer a lot of the FEDeral stuff to the Denver area.
BTW, Tom Horn (Book Petros Romanus) is rather . . . stark and startling re the near future of the Papacy and the occult goings on in the Vatican. I haven’t wanted to even touch that stuff as it’s soooo distasteful to me. However, he’s so thorough in his research . . . and others somewhat . . . I’m forced to conclude that there’s too much smoke to be 0.000% fire.
I understand a lot of RC’s believe such assertions are accurate, as well.
Sobering.
LUB BRO. God’s best to you in all you do.
It's equally as good a theological argument as "that's the way we're doing it now". Christianity is no longer a religion, it's a marketing exercise. That's really too bad.
You shouldn't want to go to church because you can sing whatever song you heard yesterday on your local Christian "Rock Me, Jesus" radio station.
Religion isn't about jumping in the back seat of your car and fogging up the windows with God. It's about reverence, awe, and a right relationship.
IF
CHRIST IS EXALTED
AND THE BIBLE TAUGHT AS WRITTEN
I’m not overly concerned.
However, I do get somewhat concerned about some of the music.
And the music volume is abusive—literally physically abusive as well as addicting in a way similar to cocaine. That’s well documented int he research.
You're right, it isn't a salvation issue. Neither are girls wearing halters and tube tops and minis, but they still aren't appropriate, and acknowledging such has nothing to do with legalism. (Note that I didn't mention jeans and tees, which you bring up here. If the jeans are clean, no problem).
Bottom line, I guess, is that you feel food and drink in a worship service is all right, and I don't. So we differ.
Welcome a man whose faith is weak, but not with the idea of arguing over his scruples. One man believes that he may eat anything, another man, without this strong conviction, is a vegetarian. The meat-eater should not despise the vegetarian, nor should the vegetarian condemn the meat-eater—they should reflect that God has accepted them both. After all, who are you to criticize the servant of somebody else, especially when that somebody else is God? It is to his own master that he gives, or fails to give, satisfactory service. And don’t doubt that satisfaction, for God is well able to transform men into servants who are satisfactory.
Again, one man thinks some days of more importance than others. Another man considers them all alike. Let every one be definite in his own convictions. If a man specially observes one particular day, he does so “to God”. The man who eats, eats “to God”, for he thanks God for the food. The man who fasts also does it “to God”, for he thanks God for the benefits of fasting. The truth is that we neither live nor die as self-contained units. At every turn life links us to God, and when we die we come face to face with him. In life or death we are in the hands of God. Christ lived and died that he might be the Lord in both life and death.
Why, then, criticize your brother’s actions, why try to make him look small? We shall all be judged one day, not by each other’s standards or even our own, but by the standard of Christ. It is written: ‘As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God’. It is to God alone that we have to answer for our actions.
Let us therefore stop turning critical eyes on one another. If we must be critical, let us be critical of our own conduct and see that we do nothing to make a brother stumble or fall.
I am convinced, and I say this as in the presence of Christ himself, that nothing is intrinsically unholy. But none the less it is unholy to the man who thinks it is. If your habit of unrestricted diet seriously upsets your brother, you are no longer living in love towards him. And surely you wouldn’t let food mean ruin to a man for whom Christ died. You mustn’t let something that is all right for you look like an evil practice to somebody else. After all, the kingdom of Heaven is not a matter of whether you get what you like to eat and drink, but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. If you put these things first in serving Christ you will please God and are not likely to offend men. So let us concentrate on the things which make for harmony, and on the growth of one another’s character. Surely we shouldn’t wish to undo God’s work for the sake of a plate of meat!
I freely admit that all food is, in itself. harmless, but it can be harmful to the man who eats it with a guilty conscience. We should be willing to be both vegetarians and teetotalers if by doing otherwise we should impede a brother’s progress in faith. Your personal convictions are a matter of faith between yourself and God, and you are happy if you have no qualms about what you allow yourself to eat. Yet if a man eats meat with an uneasy conscience about it, you may be sure he is wrong to do so. For his action does not spring from his faith, and when we act apart from our faith we sin. -— the Apostle Paul
I’ve been to a number of churches since I move around a lot. I drink coffee every service I’m in. Some churches sell coffee, others just give it away. The presence of coffee has never made a difference in those churches and the movement of God in them. What made the difference was the involvement of the congregation and the church’s leadership.
For example, my family and I tried a church for a couple of weeks in northern New York. “Come as you are and be loved” was their explicit motto. OK...that could mean a lot of things, but, fine, whatever. They had a large social area outside of the actual sanctuary. Free coffee, couches, some snack foods. Lots of conversations and general hanging out. No real issue there. Then the service starts. People trickle in throughout the worship service, a great number just continue to hang out in the social area. No effort is made to be punctual and engage in the worship service, but that’s understandable once you hear the worship service. Those people are the Walking Dead up there. No heart, no passion, just going through the motions. The lead “singer” just mumbles the words into the microphone.
When it’s finally over, the pastor gets up there and starts his sermon. The message is OK, pretty generic, but he seems like a passionate guy. Then he relates a story about being at a meeting table with other pastors and a prophet prophecies among them. He says he’s bored and not even paying attention. He brags that he’s “not a very religious person.”
After the service, we collect our daughters from Sunday school. The room the older one is in has a volunteer serving who is 100% open lesbian. No question about it. Now I know what “come as you are and be loved” means. We never went back.
Is coffee the downfall of such a church? No. The attitude of the people involved in it is. Church, to them, was just another hangout destination. Regardless of how casual or formal the atmosphere of a church is, it should be more than a place to gab with your friends. Fellowship is one thing, but this “church” was something totally different.
I have been to other churches with a similar setup (coffee, social area, etc) that was very powerful, and you could feel God move every service. The people were on-time, respectful, and engaged. The pastor was quick to crack the whip and demand better behavior from people who sauntered in whenever they felt like it or decided to get up and leave during altar call so they could beat the traffic.
I knew you’d like it.
Yep, no blood scattering for us papists.
blessings to you too. God loves us; we turn to him.
Don’t blame you a bit for getting out of that church and not looking back.
But, as I’ve had to clarify before, I never claimed that coffee is the “downfall” of a church. Again, I don’t think food and drink in a worship service is appropriate. I never will. You very well may not have a problem with it.
Would you write off a church that allows it?
What did you hear in the sermon?
Did anything you read in the Bible this past week get your attention?
What is the purpose of the church?
I encourage you and others to participate in this ministry, it may be encouraging or VERY DISCOURAGING.
I think this is the logical progression of the movements that arose in the 1800s - pentecostalism, evangelicalism etc. with more emphasis on singing and dancing than core beliefs<
Rev 2:4 “But I have this complaint against you. You don’t love Me or each other as you did at first!
Rev 2:5 Look how far you have fallen! Turn back to Me and do the works you did at first. If you don’t repent, I will come and remove your lampstand from its place among the churches.
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