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To: hosepipe; YHAOS; betty boop; MrB; TXnMA
I agree with YHAOS. "In the beginning" is used twice in the words of God when speaking of the Creation.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. - Genesis 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. - John 1:1-3

That there was a beginning means there is no infinite past.

Cosmic microwave background measures since the 1960's forward agree - space/time is expanding, i.e. there was a beginning of real space and real time.

Or to put it another way, space/time does not pre-exist but is created as the universe expands.

To people who have difficulty with geometric physics, may I suggest that energy/momentum may be seen as comparable to time passing and the same observation applies: there was a real beginning of energy/momentum.

Indeed, Aristotle explained the concept of "time" by simply counting: 1, 2, 3 etc.

In the absence of space, things cannot exist.

In the absence of time, events cannot occur.

Both are required for physical causation.

In other words, there can be no physical causation (energy momentum, wave fluctuation, etc.) without real space and real time.

Also, the singularity of big bang cosmology is not nothing:

Mathematically, the dimension of a space is the minimum number of coordinates (axes) necessary to identify a point within the space. A space of zero dimensions is a point; one dimension, a line, two dimensions, a plane; three, a cube, etc. That is the geometry of it. In zero dimensions, the mathematical point is indivisible.

It is not nothing. It is a spatial point. A singularity is not nothing.

In ex nihilo Creation (beginning of space/time) - the dimensions are not merely zero, they are null, dimensions do not exist at all. There is no space and no time. Period.

There is no mathematical point, no volume, no content, no scalar quantities. Ex nihilo doesn’t exist in relationship to anything else; there is no thing.

In an existing physical space, each point (e.g. particle) can be parameterized by a quantity such as mass. The parameter (e.g. a specific quantity within the range of possible quantities) is in effect another descriptor or quasi-dimension that uniquely identifies the point within the space.

Moreover, if the quantity of the parameter changes for a point, then a time dimension is invoked. For example, at one moment the point value is “0” and the next it is “1”.

Wave propagation (e.g. big bang, inflation) cannot occur in null dimensions nor can it occur in zero spatial dimensions, a mathematical point; a dimension of time is required for any fluctuation in a parameter value at a point.

Moreover, wave propagation must also have a spatial/temporal relation from cause point to effect point, i.e. physical causation.

For instance “0” at point nt causes “1” at point n+1t+1 which causes "0" at point n+1t+2 etc..

Obviously, physical wave propagation (e.g. big bang/inflationary model) cannot precede space/time and physical causality.

The wise man asks: Why this instead of nothing at all?

And he realizes that only God, beyond space/time and physical causation, can be the uncaused cause of causation, the first cause, The Creator of the beginning.

Space, time and physical causation are not properties of God the Creator. They are properties of the Creation. Only God is uncaused.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: - Romans 1:20

The origin of space, time and physical causation – although striking - are not the only open questions that vex scientists. There is also no explanation for the origin of information (Shannon, successful communication,) inertia, semiosis, autonomy and so on. And yet the universe is logical – if it were not, we could not understand it at all.

Order cannot arise from chaos in an unguided physical system. Period. There are always guides to the system whether one is using chaos theory, self-organizing complexity, cellular automata or whatever to analyze complexification, entropy and order.

God's Name is I AM, YHwH (HE IS), Alpha, Omega, Word.

108 posted on 08/20/2012 6:31:58 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; YHAOS; MrB; TXnMA
... only God, beyond space/time and physical causation, can be the uncaused cause of causation, the first cause, The Creator of the beginning.

Indeed — the "prime mover" of all that exists.

Thank you ever so much, dearest sister in Christ, for this amazingly informative essay/post!

111 posted on 08/20/2012 9:41:00 AM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; YHAOS; betty boop; MrB; TXnMA

Good post Alamo-Girl.

Here’s another scripture quote w/ modern day scientific framing added...

Faith comes by hearing and hearing from the Word of God.

Science has found that we only ‘learn’ our language skills through mimicry; iow if we did not hear it from another [originally our Higher Source] then there’s no learning it without a translator. Furthermore even if we only ‘see’ it [the written word] someone still needs to provide us some feedback in order to begin deciphering it.

So God commands that faith must be shared even though God has provided the DNA programming for us to hear and see physically.

[I’m sure this could be improved/re-worded, but I’m short on time.]


115 posted on 08/20/2012 12:26:38 PM PDT by BrandtMichaels
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To: Alamo-Girl; YHAOS; betty boop; MrB; TXnMA

[ God’s Name is I AM, YHwH (HE IS), Alpha, Omega, Word. ]

What IF God has no name like the Holy Spirit.?.
Joseph or Mary nicknamed Jesus, Jesus.. he may not have had a spiritual name either..
Surely “I AM” is a nickname for humans.. God did not say that was his name..

My vision showed me that in the hereafter language will become obsolete.. therefore... Names..

How can language become obsolete and you can still communicate??
The answer is the thing dreams are made of.. a subject for another time perhaps..


123 posted on 08/20/2012 2:32:37 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: Alamo-Girl
Dear Sister in Christ,

Thank you for this most thought-provoking and insightful essay-post! IMO, you are dealing with the very "essence" of understanding the fact of creation.

Early on in your essay, you made a statement that (IMO) demands clarification, qualification, and expansion:

" That there was a beginning means there is no infinite past."

Please allow me to add a qualification that makes the statement reflect both physical and Scriptural reality:

" That there was a beginning of this universe means it has no infinite past."

And, then, you proceed to discuss this universe (and clarify your above statement) in a most delightful and insightful manner...


Even philosophers and scientists who place no credence in Scripture have discussed the possibility of "other" or "parallel" universes.

And Scripture clearly indicates that there is a "place" of existence "beyond" the confines of this created universe. We believers usually call that existence, "Heaven".

And, since Scripture reveals that that "extra-universal reality" is where "I AM" "is", we must look upon both Him and His creation -- and His description of His creative acts in the 31 sentences in Genesis -- with perception that transcends our "earthbound" viewpoint.

...only God, beyond space/time and physical causation, can be the uncaused cause of causation, the first cause, The Creator of the beginning.

Space, time and physical causation are not properties of God the Creator. They are properties of the Creation. Only God is uncaused.

Praise HIM for these insights He has given you to share with us!!

~~~~~~~~~~

...and that leads to my comments-to follow (on the attributes of "I AM")...

137 posted on 08/21/2012 10:38:54 AM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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