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The NYPD Explains Why Their Bullets Wounded Nine People Yesterday (It's not their fault)
The Atlantic ^ | August 25, 2012 | Connor Simpson

Posted on 08/26/2012 6:32:13 AM PDT by Zakeet

It's official. The New York Police Department have admitted that all nine people wounded yesterday in the Empire State Building shootout were from bullets they fired at Jeffrey Johnson.

CNN's David Ariosto reports the NYPD said the two officers that confronted Johnson fired a total of 16 shots. "One officer shot nine while another one shot seven," they said. Police commissioner Ray Kelly explained the injured bystanders were hit by ricocheting bullets. The shots hit "flowerpots and other objects around, so ... their bullets fragmented and, in essence, that's what caused the wounds."

[Snip]

The next question the NYPD will have to answer is why the two officers needed to fire 16 bullets to take down one man who, as we can see in the video, was only a few feet away from them.

(Excerpt) Read more at theatlanticwire.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: New York
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; banglist; empirestateshooting; guns; newyork; nypdshooting; shooting
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To: stanne

Yes, you do jut.


161 posted on 08/26/2012 10:28:41 PM PDT by ansel12 (Massachusetts Governors, where the GOP goes for it's "conservative" Presidential candidates.)
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; wku man; SLB; ...
Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!
162 posted on 08/27/2012 6:19:19 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: Bulwyf
I find my .45 1911 has less recoil than the browning 9mm high power I used in the army. The 9mm has a higher velocity, whereas the .45 is subsonic, I find the 9mm has a sharper recoil, and the .45 comes back onto target quicker.

That's quite possible, owing to the design of the Browning HP, which is very different than that of most 9mms carried by police departments today. The Browning is designed very much like Browning's own 1911, a heavy (2.3 lbs) cast-framed single-action pistol with a noticeably stiffer (7.5 lb). trigger pull than the .45.

But compare that design to a standard 9mm carry gun like the Springfield XD series, the Smith & Wesson M&P, the Sig P226, the H&K P9 or the Glock 17, all of which are polymer-framed double action pistols which weigh considerably less loaded (1.5 lbs or so) and have (to a varying extent) much lighter triggers. Having fired all of the above myself (except the H&K), I have found them (assuming a standard 4-in. barrel police service model configuration) to offer greater sight picture control and less recoil than the Browning. Your mileage may vary, but that's been my experience.

That said, I absolutely love my .45's, both in the classic 1911 design and in the updated polymer-frame concealed carry version offered by Taurus. And there is no doubt that a .45ACP cartridge tipped with a JHP will take a bad guy down like nothing else (short of a Barrett .50 or anything else too heavy to lug around under one's coat).

163 posted on 08/27/2012 6:37:47 AM PDT by andy58-in-nh (America does not need to be organized: it needs to be liberated.)
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To: cumbo78
As a retired member of the FINEST Police Department in the world, the NYPD,

Yep - Amadou Diallo would agree.

Any of you ever been in that situation? I didn’t think so

Nope tootsie roll, not that exact situation, and I bet you haven't either. OTO a lot of the older generation have been under fire in situations that would cause you and your fellow JBTs to crap THEIR pants - where the enemy is actually shooting back.

NOW all of your bullsh!t aside what do you suppose would have happened if a couple of armed citizens did exactly the same thing as these two did. Honest answer if you're capable of it.

164 posted on 08/27/2012 7:22:44 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: papertyger

LOL! Said with your best lisp!


165 posted on 08/27/2012 7:28:02 AM PDT by CodeToad (Anticipate their arrival...they won't.)
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To: fireman15

Thanks, good points. The main reason for so many hit— the sidewalk there at 9 AM is jammed. I’m surprised they didn’t hit a cabbie or auto. There was a bus pulling up just as this started.
Agree that maybe something else could have been used. Not a taser- say maybe a developed hand held sonic weapon could be directionally used.

It is also, my opinion, the lack of an armed populace. Somebody could have stopped this clown long before he walked around the corner. Too much reliance on big brother govt.— keeping us safe from salt, trans fat,soda pop.... but not from armed loonies.


166 posted on 08/27/2012 8:56:09 AM PDT by John S Mosby (Sic Semper Tyrannis)
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To: Joe Brower
NY Times list of some of the finest actions of the Finest Police department in the world
167 posted on 08/27/2012 10:23:16 AM PDT by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: papertyger; Admin Moderator
Toady. Really? For whom? Plainly seen? Don't think so. "Discussion staying civil"? Checking your "civil" dialogue on other posts in this thread, alone-"cop-sucking" "boning".. and many other examples of child-blog. What, you work for the police state language nazi blabber-mouth Wasserman-shultz?

Attempted dialogue by suggesting that, rather than "fill in the blank" in the vacuum of facts, or repeating the misinformation crap from an idiot reporter as a source. I mean, Atlantic Monthly..really? Never let facts get in the way of a self-conclusion, being so demonstrably well informed and all. No, far better to accuse logical thinking using what can be used to make an informed judgement in the interim-- call that making "excuses". Not being a great lover of a police state, facts and intellect are what it takes to prevent the creation of a police state, not outbursts.

Never told you what to think, your ad hominems here aside. Simply said that there will be experts who will define this and either elucidate facts or create more questions, distinct from the rantings of the keyboard commandos that regularly rail on FR. Self-identifying is one prerogative of choice in an adult world.

Many other seasoned, well-known Freepers (FR having greatly matured since 1998) have tried to impart their considerable sedate experience on what little is known in this event-and they, too have had to bear unthinking emotional "civil" outbursts.

So this dialogue is over en clair, now there's no point, or a need to remove all doubt, having unintentionally tethered a goat. Paper indeed. Deo Vindice.

168 posted on 08/27/2012 10:30:57 AM PDT by John S Mosby (Sic Semper Tyrannis)
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To: DeepInTheHeartOfTexas

Sadly, many cops are union spoiled and not that well trained.


169 posted on 08/27/2012 10:33:58 AM PDT by fabian (" And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and the forests will echo with laughter")
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To: CodeToad
BS. New York is crime central. All “fly over country” cities are far better.

How about we try some actual facts instead of basing our opinion on movies from the '80s, hmm? Violent crimes per 100,000 population, 2010:

Detroit ............................... 1,887.4
St. Louis ............................. 1,747.1
Memphis ............................... 1,541.5
Oakland ............................... 1,529.6
Baltimore ............................. 1,455.8
Stocon ................................ 1,380.9
Buffal................................. 1,357.5
Clevelan............................... 1,296.8
Washington............................. 1,241.1
Philadelphia........................... 1,189.4
Kansas City ........................... 1,139.5
Nashville ............................. 1,134.9
Miami ................................. 1,107.7
Tulsa ................................. 1,094.0
Cincinnati ............................ 1,085.6
Atlanta ............................... 1,071.6
Minneapolis ........................... 1,053.7
Milwaukee ............................. 1,044.5
Newark ................................ 1,029.0
Houston ................................. 986.1
Oklahoma City ........................... 927.5
Toledo .................................. 904.2
Boston .................................. 903.5
Pittsburgh .............................. 898.5
Las Vegas ............................... 893.0
Sacramento .............................. 870.3
Anchorage ............................... 837.7
Wichita ................................. 802.9
Albuquerque ............................. 786.8
St. Paul ................................ 751.2
New Orleans ............................. 727.7
Corpus Christi .......................... 719.2
Columbus ................................ 705.2
San Francisco ........................... 702.1
Dallas .................................. 701.0
Mobile .................................. 667.0
Jacksonville ............................ 665.0
Tucson .................................. 631.9
Bakersfield ............................. 631.0
Fresno .................................. 625.9
Tampa ................................... 623.9
Charlotte-Mecklenburg ................... 613.1
San Antonio ............................. 605.8
Long Beach .............................. 588.4
Greensboro .............................. 587.8
Louisville Metro......................... 585.8

New York ................................ 581.7

Fort Worth .............................. 575.1
Lexington ............................... 574.5
Seattle ................................. 566.8
Los Angeles ............................. 559.2
Denver .................................. 542.1
Portland ................................ 540.6
Phoenix ................................. 518.1
Arlington ............................... 501.7
Colorado Springs ........................ 491.8
Omaha ................................... 487.1
Lincoln ................................. 484.5
Riverside ............................... 479.7
Austin .................................. 475.9
El Paso ................................. 458.3
Aurora .................................. 446.1
Santa Ana ............................... 443.8
San Diego ............................... 427.6
Raleigh ................................. 414.6
Mesa .................................... 395.4
Anaheim ................................. 343.0
San Jose ................................ 331.4
Fort Wayne .............................. 290.3
Honolulu ................................ 268.1
Henderson ............................... 205.5
Virginia Beach .......................... 188.1
Plano ................................... 180.8
Chicago ................................. NA

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

170 posted on 08/27/2012 10:40:38 AM PDT by ReignOfError
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To: John S Mosby

Thank you for your reply. It is pretty easy to be critical after an incident such as this. Unfortunately, the backlash from this type of incident is more likely to create counterproductive restrictions on the ability of the police to do their jobs rather than help make our citizens safer.

I would bet that the first reaction of even the harshest critics here when looking down the big barrel of a madman’s .45 would be to pull their own trigger first and keep pulling it until the threat is gone. Once this turned into a gun fight gut instinct took over and all of the options went out the window. Experience and training might have helped the officers confront the man in a safer way. If they had been using different equipment they might have been able to take down the killer with less collateral damage.


171 posted on 08/27/2012 11:53:36 AM PDT by fireman15 (Check your facts before making ignorant statements.)
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To: John S Mosby

Ah, the haughty “sniff” and withdraw, is it?

I never needed the “Atlantic” to tell me what my own eyes can see. And unless you can bring evidence of some exotic anti-wormhole, I don’t need your inane hesitation, either.

One thing you should know about “seasoning” and “maturation,”; it tends to wear on ones ability to suffer fools. Ones “time and tolerance” grows shorter as you become better acquainted with the tactics of the sophist.

As an aside, I myself spent thirty minutes in laser-assisted, dry fire practice last night at easily twice the distance so obvious on the video, and that with a three inch reactive target. Not one shot fell outside the borders of the target unit, though not all in the three inch circle. And I assure you, two seconds is a very long time to aim at such ranges.

If I, as an avocation, am regularly capable of such performance, shouldn’t someone who “bears the sword” professionally acquit himself at least one-fifth as well?

Was I under threat during my practice? Of course not. Did I suffer the effects of adrenaline beating a tom-tom in my ears? No. I don’t pretend to claim my practice session is fair standard to expect of a man facing death. But I do claim that a man that carries a gun as a defining characteristic of his chosen profession should be able to put *every single one* of his shots in a fifteen inch group at half the range I “play.” Inability to do so is NOT the mark of someone competent to go about armed, but rather the mark of someone who has “fallen apart,” and is mindlessly pulling a trigger.

As for your choice to own my comments to others who have chosen to term their opponents “keyboard commandos,” I suppose that is because “the shoe fit,” but it certainly wasn’t something I initiated.


172 posted on 08/27/2012 12:09:41 PM PDT by papertyger ("And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if..."))
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To: Joe Brower

As I’ve said before...just one more reason I won’t ever be visiting NYC.


173 posted on 08/27/2012 12:39:53 PM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: VMI70
Maybe it was the 1911 Mark IIa, mod 4. You know, the double barrel model.

And it holds 16 rounds in it's twin magazine:


174 posted on 08/27/2012 1:14:02 PM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: Jim Noble
Live shooter @ 34th and 5th is a nightmare tactical scenario for the defender(s), not sure how to run the scenario with a good outcome.

Nuke 'em from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

-- Ripley, Aliens

175 posted on 08/27/2012 1:23:19 PM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: ReignOfError

Reported crimes. That’s all that is in that list. Other crimes not accounted for, including crimes by cops.

New York City is a liberal sh*t hole. Always has been, always will be.


176 posted on 08/27/2012 1:33:55 PM PDT by CodeToad (Anticipate their arrival...they won't.)
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To: ReignOfError

P.S. Let’s us know when those 9 victims of this police shooting are listed as victims of violence. We won’t hold our breath.


177 posted on 08/27/2012 1:35:15 PM PDT by CodeToad (Anticipate their arrival...they won't.)
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To: Bulwyf
I find my .45 1911 has less recoil than the browning 9mm high power I used in the army. The 9mm has a higher velocity, whereas the .45 is subsonic, I find the 9mm has a sharper recoil, and the .45 comes back onto target quicker.

My 115#, 5'5" fiance finds the M1911 .45 easier for her to handle than the 9mm Beretta with which she was trained in the USAF. Both are really a bit too large for her hands, but that's less of an issue with the M1911 because of the long pull for the M9 for the first round, followed by a single-action pull for the rest. She's also of the opinion that both muzzle blast and muzzle flash are worse with the 9mm than with the .45, but this is dependent on the ammo used, obviously. Nevertheless, the 9mm may require a hot loaded hollowpoint top approach the effectiveness of the .45 ACP at its usual GI loading, and this increases that flash and blast, particularly not a good thing at night.

And after I taught her how to properly hold a M1911 to beat someone to death with it, she found the M9 to be far less convenient for the same task in the same fashion.

Her choice? A .45 ACP lightweight commander, when she doesn't have to conceal it.... [she lives in an open-carry state] And when she needs a hideout rig, she generally carries the 9x18mm ex-East German Makarov pistol that I formerly owned. We came to an agreement.

178 posted on 08/27/2012 1:41:15 PM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: Zakeet
The NYPD Explains Why Their Bullets Wounded Nine People Yesterday (It's not their fault)

It's the damn guns! I just hope the PD doesn't have any SUV's.

179 posted on 08/27/2012 9:34:29 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: CodeToad
Reported crimes. That’s all that is in that list. Other crimes not accounted for, including crimes by cops.

I see. So it's your position that there is actually more crime in NYC, but for some reason people in Detroit, St. Louis, and other "flyover" cities are three and a half times more likely to report it? Or that the NYPD commits 100,000 violent crimes a year?

180 posted on 08/28/2012 9:27:29 AM PDT by ReignOfError
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