New federal law may make replacing your furnace much costlier

NorthJersey.com ^ | November 23, 2012 | JAMES M. O’NEILL

[Timber Rattler]

Replacing an aging furnace could cost homeowners thousands of dollars more after May 1, when new federal energy efficiency standards take effect for northern states, including New Jersey.

The new energy-efficient natural gas furnaces aren’t that much more expensive themselves, but they must be vented directly to an outside wall rather than through the chimney, which can increase installation costs dramatically, home heating contractors say.

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Under the Department of Energy rules, gas furnaces installed after May 1 must be at least 90 percent efficient, compared with the current 78 percent efficient criterion.

Similar improvements in energy efficiency are set to go into effect for heat pumps and air conditioning systems in Southern states.

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The rules were produced after Congress passed a law in 2007 allowing the Department of Energy to develop regional standards for central heating and cooling equipment.

Analysis by the U.S. Department of Energy concluded that between 2013 and 2045, the higher-efficiency furnaces, air conditioning systems and heat pumps would save about one-fifth of the amount of total energy used annually by the U.S. residential sector.

In addition, the drop in energy use would result in greenhouse gas reductions of up to 143 million metric tons of carbon dioxide over those three decades. That’s equivalent to the amount of carbon emitted each year to produce the electricity used by 1.8 million homes, or the carbon emissions produced from burning nearly 77,900 railcars worth of coal, according to an Environmental Protection Agency greenhouse gas calculator.

[Myrddin]

I own a 1947 vintage house in Pocatello that was originally fitted with a coal chute and a boiler for steam radiators. The house was refitted with a 92% efficient natural gas forced air furnace. The air inlet/outlet is PVC pipe directly to the back of the house. When operating it makes a little noise and some steam outside.

My other house is also natural gas/forced air with a heat pump outside that only serves as the air conditioning condenser. That vent goes straight to the roof. The house is 1986 vintage. I don't know the efficiency rating, but it is likely I'll have a more expensive replacement coming in the future.

[muir_redwoods]

I have all that. It wasn’t exactly cheap but not inordinately expensive

[ConradofMontferrat]

No I don’t.

But, a road trip from western PA to Maine? I’ll be glad to take that trip just to tweek BeeHOe’s nose.

OTH, I think if you poke around, you’re gonna find a lot of “good ole boyz” in your neighborhood, would be glad to barter with you and make your home warm and SAFE.

Heaters aren’t rocket science, they’re just common sense.

[Cicero]

Because of taxes, money saved in expenses is better than money earned in income.

I did quite a bit of work improving the insulation in my house the last couple of years. It’s now much more comfortable when the temperature goes way down outside, and it saves me quite a bit on the fuel bills.

Let’s say you spend $10,000 in capital and save $1,500 a year on fuel expenses. If you invested that $10,000 in capital in today’s lousy markets, you’d be very, very lucky to make anything like that on it, plus you would pay taxes on any income you did make. And hopefully it will improve the value of the house.

I don’t save energy because I’m worried about global warming, which is nonsense, but I do try to save energy in order to reduce costs.

[BobL]

Actually, these condensing furnaces are not a bad idea - IF you can vent them as required without much cost. They basically use the hot exhaust from combustion to pre-heat the incoming air, so less heat actually heads up the chimney.

But with less heat, the waste air holds less water...and the water (which is a product of combustion) condenses and has to drain. You must use PVC or equivalent for the exhaust air (which is quite cool)...or the Carbonic Acid (created when water mixes with CO2, another product of combustion) will eat away anything else.

So, for new construction, these are great units and should be required (in my opinion) - but in old houses, it does get a lot trickier, and rather than dumping the HUGE cost on homeowners, a serious effort should have been made to either pay for the ventilation modifications, or not require them.

What happens now, with this mandate, is that homeowners will simply not replace furnaces (this stuff is EASY to figure out), but instead will keep their existing ones limping along. That’s fine until the heat exchanger cracks and people start dropping dead from Carbon Monoxide poisoning. But, unfortunately, that IS how the real world works.

[ConradofMontferrat]

Because its a personal thing. I know my stuff. I don’t NEED some bureauKaRATZ who has NEVER even seen a firebox, to tell me what I MUST or MUST NOT do.

EPA RATZ are policy wonks. Those fools couldn’t tell you an expansion unit from a water tank. 98% of them have NEVER HELD a hand tool! Like you, like me. And they PRESUME to tell the trade what is SAFE and what is NOT?

These are political idiots trying to force an agenda that will cost Americans mega bux for NO REASON, other than to justify and satisfy their desire to control the population at large.

End of rant.

Sorry, this wasn’t aimed at you. I have come to the point where my operating principle is simply: “I will NOT comply.”

You may be of a different mindset. A lot good people like yourself still believe the system works and working with it is the best way. God bless you and Godspeed. Take care of yourself and your family.

I no longer think so.

Bite my rear in the future? They will break their teeth.

[usconservative]

Stupid people in this country vote for this sh#t. Makes me want to puke.

The law was passed in 2007. Bush's fault. (Seriously, he signed it.)

[BobL]

“We have a delightful device called a ventless Natural Gas space heater. best money we spent on the house (East Tenn.)”

Be sure to have Carbon Monoxide detectors that work. As long as you have enough Oxygen, your heater will be perfectly safe with no CO. But if Oxygen starts to get depleted, then CO can form (from a different reaction)...and can kill you - unless your heater will shut off first (which some do).

Still a good unit (like 99% efficient), as long as you’ve got air communication with outdoors.

[Stevenc131]

I have a 95% efficient natural gas furnace installed in a utility closet in the basement, and the installer used a horizontal concentric intake/outflow pipe design, one pipe inside another. It works fine and the intake/exhaust pipe is designed for the type furnace I have (not just something the installer threw together in other words).

[BobL]

“pay your service man to DYE CHECK the manifold”

I don’t pay THE MAN for nothing. Will never have him in my house - too risky regarding crime.

But I do have several CO alarms with fresh batteries and digital displays. I’ll know if things get bad.

[ConradofMontferrat]

What happens now, with this mandate, is that homeowners will simply not replace furnaces (this stuff is EASY to figure out), but instead will keep their existing ones limping along. That’s fine until the heat exchanger cracks and people start dropping dead from Carbon Monoxide poisoning. But, unfortunately, that IS how the real world works.

You are so right on the money. This why if you have an old unit, get your service man to DYE CHECK it every so often. For manifold (heat exchanger) cracks, dye checks are the only way to "see" that problem before it kills you.

They basically use the hot exhaust from combustion to pre-heat the incoming air, so less heat actually heads up the chimney.

In Japan, we used kerosene heaters with fans. The exhaust/intake pipe was just as you described. The intake was inside the exhaust. Incoming air was preheated this way, and made a very real difference in the quality of heat you brought in.

[usconservative]

I have a Lopi Wood Burning Stove (pictured above) in my house. It heats @ 2400 SF which covers most of my house. We've had it since 1999 and have been using it every year since as our primary source of heat. We bring home our own wood every year from our property in Michigan's Upper Penninsula and recently brought home 3 cords of hardwood which will cover us from now until mid-March. Our furnace furnace is mostly for backup purposes so it doesn't get much use beyond the fan kicking on to circulate the warm air from the woodburner throughout the house. Our main cold-air return is in the same room as the woodburner (how convenient!)

Our house is 20 years old, so we're due for a new furnace and central air, now I'll make sure I replace it before May of next year to avoid all the bullsh*t.

[mo]

“Similar improvements in energy efficiency are set to go into effect for heat pumps and air conditioning systems in Southern states....”

teach them rednecks all about what happens when you goes and votes red now.../s

[BobL]

“In Japan, we used kerosene heaters with fans. The exhaust/intake pipe was just as you described. The intake was inside the exhaust.”

Yea, that does work. Anyone who’s a real man has wondered why the exhaust pipes for furnaces and water heaters has to be so darn hot - it only seems logical to us real men that something could be done to capture that heat.

But....now to water heaters. If you have a conventional natural gas water heater, take a look - no electrical connections, none. But buy a condensing water heater (same principal as these furnaces) and you now need 120 VAC for hot water (to power an exhaust fan, and maybe electronics). That’s all fine when you’ve got power...but not everyone has power 24/7/365...we certainly don’t.

But - to Obama’s credit, he hasn’t (yet) required condensing water heaters (they tried...but not yet required). The moment he does, if he does, I go out and buy at least 2 more of the old type (I already have a spare as it is).

[usconservative]

I love the folk that get rid of a perfectly good car or truck and take on a $4-600/month payment in order to save 10mpg. Yet, they only drive 8-10k miles a year. Even with $4/gallon gas, the payback would be 25 years!

So do I! I typically buy something that's 2-3 years old for myself, pay cash for it and run it for 10 years or so myself. I'm one of those people who drives < 8,000 miles a year. The bulk of my driving is back and forth to the commuter train, typically 10 miles a day and the occasional weekend errand runs or trip up north to the cabin.

Given I drive so little, fuel efficiency doesn't mean spit to me, so I drive an SUV and enjoy all the creature comforts of it. Since I live in the snow belt, the 4WD is nice too. :-)

Current vehicle is a 2003 GMC Envoy Denali. Bought it with 33,000 miles on it in 2006 and it turned 71,000 miles last week. I'll probably drive it a few more years before giving it to my youngest son as his first vehicle. (This thing doesn't have a scratch on it. Wish I got such a nice vehicle as my first when I was his age!)

[ConradofMontferrat]

Hey Bob,

Know exactly how you feel. On The Other Hand, I know my limitations. As an old farmer, I can fix damn near anything. But sometimes, for safety, I rely on outside help. They have tools and knowhow that I don’t have.

Rest assured, when a service man I don’t know comes to the house, I’m home. If he asks why I’m watching him do his job, I say: “2 things; first I want to learn what you’re doing, and second, I need to keep you from getting eaten by the dobermans.”

They especially like the second one since there are at any given time anywhere from 2 to 5 around the house. (We rescue wayward pincers.)

Needless to say, I sleep well at night.

[Little Bill]

I have an on demand hot water heater on a well. Never noticed any temperature fluctuations, if there are they are minor, paid for itself in just over a year.

[ConradofMontferrat]

Bob,

Like minds think alike. I have two water heaters. One is the standard type, all mechanical and no electrical nonsense. The other is an “on demand” propane. Again, no electrics. The standard I can convert to propane easily, but I like the on demand because it saves gas, by A LOT.

Just a little forethought and you can be self sufficient.

[BobL]

“As an old farmer” - that says A LOT there. You definitely then know how to take care of yourself.

The dogs don’t hurt either - in keeping THE MAN focused on his work and don’t poking around for goodies (or, more likely, his young helper poking around for goodies).

[Gandalf_The_Gray]

Are you on a well or city water? Well aware of the “reducing/relieving” valve, the one you are using is preset to 45 psi. My well pump cuts in at 20 and out at 35 psi. The gage and switch are in the basement and so the actual head at the pump is much higher (deep well).

I had thought to eliminate the existing pressure tank which is over forty years old and shows it's age. I'd let the down hole pump dump into a large gravity tank (plastic Farm & Fleet special??) with a simple float switch to maintain a supply. I'd then use a separate booster pump to charge a new pressure tank with a rolling diaphragm to prevent "water logging" from loss of pre-charge, thence to the R/R valve. Only problem is lack of space for the gravity tank. Why a gravity tank? We have lots of sediment, grit and very fine clay which would have a chance to settle out w/o a filter. Don't know if the rest of the plumbing would stand up to 45 psi plus an occasional water hammer shock, I really don't want to find out either.

Regards,
GtG

We have hydronic heat and have always had a R/R valve in the inlet line to the "boiler", it's set at about 15 psi.