Skip to comments.The Inconceivable Embarrassment From Cold Fusion
Posted on 12/10/2012 5:50:12 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
U.S. institutional politics, government agencies, and academic science have been caught in denial so strident theyre now shouting no while stark raving naked. The nakedness is because of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions or LENR, or an evolution of the famed cold fusion.
The intellectual embarrassment is tattooed to the naysayers forever and disqualifies many people.
Steve Krivit reports from behind his paywall physicist Yasuhiro Iwamura from Mitsubishi Heavy Industries that researchers at Toyota Central Research and Development Laboratories performed an independent replication of a Mitsubishi low-energy nuclear reaction transmutation experiment.
Iwamura spoke of the replication at the American Nuclear Societys LENR session on Nov. 14th 2012 in San Diego. Krivit reports Iwamura saying the Toyota researchers confirmed that nuclear changes from one element to another took place without the use of high-energy nuclear physics.
Toyota is being said to have used a LENR deuterium-permeation transmutation method that Iwamura invented. This follows the information that Osaka University and Iwate University had previously reported similar replications.
Iwamura is said to have been working with this LENR method for 14 years.
The target of the work in Japan seems directed to the transmutation of elements, something that has been seen in many past experiments of LENR. Direct potential commercial applications could be processing of nuclear waste or the production of rare earth elements such as platinum.
The story is leading to two different camps, the LENR people trying to produce energy and the Low Energy Nuclear Transmutation (LENT, a new short form to remember) people trying to change an element into another. The process is doing about the same thing; each pathway is optimized to achieve one result or the other.
Now Mitsubishi and Toyota, two major international industrial firms are releasing information. The firms obviously understand that the money from product sales will be vastly more important than research grants.
Politics, bureaucrats and academia are being scooped by big business. Its probably a good thing.
Private enterprise isnt just after LENR in Japan.
Dr. Francesco Celani has announced a successful 3rd party replication of his LENR system, which apparently has been improved since he did the demonstration at National Instruments Week in Texas earlier this year.
Celani said the reactor used is completely different from the one he and his group developed and used. As a result, he says, the probability of a systematic error in the measurements has become highly unlikely.
The private firm involved in this effort is believed to be STMicrolectronics, a French-Italian electronics manufacturer based in Geneva, Switzerland. The firms logo is part of the photos Dr. Celani has released.
What is one to make of all this? The first major point is academia has utterly let the world down. Now that LENR obviously functions there are almost no experimental experts available or organized training underway. The world economy is completely out of the loop, so far. The second is governments worldwide have set up a patent barrier, which is still in place that keeps the potential dowsed down. Only the very brave and eccentric have ventured out with Andrea Rossi leading the way.
At the human level the price of condemnation is beginning to show. For those who followed the press, media and academic lead to condemn Pons and Fleischmann, while some knew full well that a few very careful experimenters were able to replicate the work, the guilt is the harm done to science progress, intellectual expansion and economic growth.
At the frontier of knowledge there is no disgrace at an experiment that fails. Disgrace comes from denial of the opportunity for research and experimentation. Denial of a venture into the unknown is one of the ultimate scientific dishonesties.
The possibility that LENR is fraudulent, or a result of error is now non-existent, and "the ducks are coming home to roost".
For those of you interested in an in-depth discussion of the science in language a layman can understand, but with sufficient depth to be convincing to the dedicated scientist, this book:
Link to the Mitsubishi research.
It should also be noted that the Toshiba work was reported at a meeting of the American NUCLEAR Society.
Academia is full of pc nonthinkers
Or so they say.
The possibility that LENR is fraudulent, or a result of error is now non-existent,
The possibility that LENR is fraudulent, or a result of error is now exactly the same as it was before. UNTIL this is PUBLICALLY DEMONSTRATED it still just remains CLAIMS.
. . . and while claiming moral and intellectual superiority to the masses, they have reverted to a base human characteristic . . . the self-righteous ba$tards are greedy and selfish . . . they are on the take
It is amazing that the global warming pseudo science gained wide acceptance despite strong evidence it does not exist and was based on manipulated data, while “ cold fusion” has far more credible research supporting it and has not been taken seriously.
they are wine swishing morons feeding at the public trough
You had me until this.
Andrea Rossi is a complete fraud.
It doesn’t inspire confidence when nuclear physicists mis-spell spell “length” in one of their figures.
Easy to answer, cheap energy bad, and must be discouraged, expensive unreliable energy good and must be encouraged. Left wing cronies get nothing out of it.
mis-spell spell? Damn it.
Uh, the criterion for validity is replication, which has been done, and in the case of Mitsubishi, published. "Public demonstration" has precisely nothing to do with science.
And I'm sure you'll also come up with some reason to ignore Celani's results, which HAVE been "publically demonstrated" multiple times.
So, the mere appearance of the word "Rossi" makes all the other facts inadmissable?? That attitude sounds like pathological skepticism to me.
“The possibility that LENR is fraudulent...” - WW
The probability of fraud the same as it was. Check your logic.
Since some stock certificates are true and valid, are all stock certificates true and valid?
If presented with a stock certificate from BNY Mellon, do you treat it with the same precaution as you would from one claimed to be found in grandma’s safe? How would you treat one presented from a convicted forger?
The scientific process and search for truth is about independent verification. Trust nobody. Instead get their procedures and replicate the findings.
LOL. MOST physicists can't spell for sour apples, and in this case you're also talking about "English as a second language", as the speaker is Japanese.
All of which is irrelevant to the FACT of replication, by solid researchers at world-class organizations.
Too funny. Karma.
>> For those of you interested in an in-depth discussion
Yeah, “in depth discussion” is the ONLY thing the LENR “industry” has produced. With a liberal amount of whining as a by-product.
I’m not interested in “in depth discussion”. Won’t heat or cool my house.
My logic is just fine. Note "LENR" as the broad class. That there may be some individuals practicing fraud within that broad class is not what I'm referring to.
According the the hot physicists, ALL LENR research is either fraudulent or mistaken. That position is now untenable by any measure.
"The scientific process and search for truth is about independent verification. Trust nobody. Instead get their procedures and replicate the findings."
Which is precisely what has been done, and what the article refers to.
So, the mere appearance of the word “Rossi” makes all the other facts inadmissable?? That attitude sounds like pathological skepticism to me.
Rossi’s work has been pushed on FR for years.
It has gone nowhere. About like BlackLight Power—which also has been making similar claims for years that somehow go nowhere.
"Im not interested in in depth discussion. Wont heat or cool my house."
Another term for "in depth discussion" is "thorough presentation of the scientific evidence". And this thread is about the science, not what you may or may not be interesed in, or what might heat or cool your house.
and protecting their government benefactors
Nobody has "pushed" Rossi's work on FR. A very few have had the unpardonable temerity to actually attempt to have a rational discussion of it based on the presented evidence. Which unleashed the wrath of the pathological skeptics for whom any discussion of Rossi (or for some, of LENR as a topic) is anathema.
This thread is not about Rossi. If you want to actually discuss the article or the science, stick around. If not, I suggest you not "click here".
I have always been pulling for cold fusion ever since Pons and Flieshchman announced. I bought the Wall Street Journal the next day to get the details. I am surprised the Israelis have not been more active in cold fusion. They need the energy, they have the scientists, plus successful cold fusion marginalizes Arabs/Muslims who only have oil/gas to sell the world
Japan has few oil/gas resources so they should have always been pushing harder for cold fusion development....But now they are getting there with some heavy hitters
Horse sh!t. You remind me of those people who thought that you could fill your gas tank with water and drop a pill into it and drive.
Anything that claims to generate nuclear reactions at chemical activation energy levels needs to be viewed with extreme scepticism.
“All of which is irrelevant to the FACT of replication, by solid researchers at world-class organizations.”
I am not a physicist but am pretty good at spotting poorly designed controls. I will have to look at their paper to see if anything stands out. Remember that when cold fusion was first reported it was replicated by scientists at some good schools, albeit probably grad students and not skeptical industrial scientists.
I agree it is very positive for the world, that real, transparent science is being practiced in this area, by well-established scientists with strong reputations. (like BNY Mellon and the stock certificates.)
As you are aware, that has little to do with the charade games played by Rossi. It is a shame that he was mentioned in the article. This article does not change one Iota of the possibility of fraudulent conduct on the part of Rossi.
This in itself is pretty old hat. I was running these just last week as a demonstration lab for undergraduate physics students, transforming aluminum into silicon using the thermal neutron-induced n-gamma reaction. Thermal neutron capture by 235U or 239Pu involves low-energy particles but it liberates tremendous amounts of energy.
I know you know that but a lot of people will be taken by the claim "without the use of high-energy nuclear physics". Laymen reading an article like this will be impressed by that statement in and of itself, when they probably should not be. I'm not disputing any of the claims of the people involved here as I have not looked into it too deeply, but I'm just saying throwing around buzzwords and technobabble probably doesn't help their case.
I’m not sure I understand this concept, but I’ve wondered why used radioactive rods had to be stored away. IMHO, it seems that still “radioactive” energy may still be useful.
Humans with half a brain will take it seriously, just as soon as it PROVES itself. Until then, the proponents like those mentioned are just charlatans begging to steal other people's money.
The Wright brothers did not need "claims" and "donations" and "investments". They built a machine that could fly. Shut up, build a model that works and can be copied with equally positive results, and THEN we can celebrate their brilliance.
And if it isn't about taking money, then whining about needing people to believe in your ideas is the most childish kind of non-science.
However, once it has been "used up" (ie, it has changed to a new radioactive element after the heat-generating interaction with another element), the fact that they're radioactive does not help. In their new state, they don't help generate heat anymore. Therefore, they're useless as "nuclear fuel". Now they're just really interesting metals that also happen to be rather dangerous to most living things, due to that radioactivity.
(Warning: that is an over-simplified explanation, but hopefully it helps clarify the basics.)
I have my doubts IF LENR will ever work, but I also keep an open mind to the possibility that someone will discover the unobtainium element required to make it work.
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Not so. The work of Lysenko, the Russian biology fraud, was replicated many times by other self-serving Russian biologists.
This article is gibberish. The paragraphs appear to have been dropped in no particular order.
Yes, of course, the used rods can be re-processed, where it is legal.
As a matter of research for its own sake, cold fusion passes the test, anything beyond that is obsessive hope.
And it's chickens that roost, not ducks.
It has been, and more than extreme. The science is now unquestionable. All the criteria that have been put forward for scientific proof have been satisfied (and more than satisfied). The pathological skeptics have been quite rapidly moving the goal posts to avoid having to admit they were wrong.
I suggest you read Beaudette's book and learn about that evidence instead of bloviating.
Indeed. My point precisely. Whether Rossi is a fraud or not is now irrelevant to the scientific validity of LENR.
Politics has caused profound damage to science many times before. Students should have it beat into their heads that consensus is NOT science, it’s politics.
Your logic (and science) is flawed. Note the qualifier "Russian" (should actually be Communist). LENR has been replicated in many laboratories all over the world.
Correct. If his device worked it would have been patented and produced for commercial use. He would have become the richest man on earth. HE IS A FRAUD AND THOSE THAT GIVE HIM MONEY ARE FOOLS!
"Something of use" is irrelevant to scientific validity. But nice try at moving the goal posts.
"And it's chickens that roost, not ducks."
As a farm boy who has raised both, I can guarantee you that ducks do indeed "roost", as do geese, guinea fowl, etc.
So anyone who disagrees with you is bloviating. What an arrogant attitude. Not content to simply disagree you have to work in an insult in your post as well. Tell me do you believe in 100 mpg carburetors?
You are nuts to say that my “science is flawed”. I am a far better scientist that you can ever be.
I've changed no goal posts, and the phrase is still “chickens come home to roost”, not ducks.