Pastor Scott Lively and his legal team outside the courthouse. From left: Horatio Mihet, Pastor Lively, Steve Crampton, Philip Moran
Posted on 01/15/2013 5:24:20 PM PST by daniel1212
Lively's lawyer dismantles plaintiff's points, despite unusual process by judge
On Monday, Jan. 7, the Motion to Dismiss hearing began on the outrageous "crimes against humanity" lawsuit filed against Pastor Scott Lively by the Soros-backed pro-homosexual group Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR). An overflow crowd of activists from both sides packed the Federal District in Springfield, Massachusetts.
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The 1½ hour hearing before Judge Michael A. Ponsor was unusual in many respects and clearly biased in others. To pro-family citizens, it provided an uncomfortable view of the intensity and dishonesty of the homosexual movement coupled with the outrageous willingness of the judiciary -- even the Federal Courts -- to cater to their otherwise weak legal arguments.
Representing Lively was his team of lawyers from Liberty Counsel, led by Horatio Mihet, with Steve Crampton and local counsel Phillip Moran.
On August 8, 2012, Lively's lawyers at Liberty Counsel filed a 109-page Motion to Dismiss in response to CCR's 61-page Amended Lawsuit against Scott Lively. They are attempting to sue Pastor Lively for "crimes against humanity" essentially to punish him for pro-family speeches he gave in Uganda several years ago about the homosexual movement there. See our report here.
The general purpose of this hearing was for the judge to question the defense on various points of their Motion to Dismiss, and for the Plaintiffs to respond to the Defense's answers. From that, the judge would issue a decision whether to dismiss the case or allow it to continue.
Although the hearing date had received very little publicity in the media, the courthouse staff nevertheless prepared two overflow courtrooms with closed-circuit video of the hearing. It would appear that this was in cooperation with local homosexual groups. As we reported last week, those groups had notices on their websites to encourage their activists to come and "pack the courtroom" in an attempt to influence the hearing, and also to hold a demonstration and rally at the courthouse. In answer to that, MassResistance and pro-family groups in the Springfield area also encouraged supporters to come.
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Homosexual activists rally outside of the courthouse after the hearing. |
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Approximately 120 people showed up inside the courthouse, with more outside. About one-third of them were pro-family supporters -- some from as far away as Connecticut. The main courtroom was nearly evenly divided between pro- and anti-Lively people, and the two overflow rooms were filled with the remainder. The judge made a point of saying that it was the largest crowd ever to attend a hearing in that building (which was recently built). However, the court security staff, which included federal marshals, successfully maintained decorum inside the building.
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OUR side also showed up with signs. |
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But outside the building, before and after the hearing, the homosexual activists demonstrated, danced, chanted, screamed, and had a small rally with speeches after the hearing. (Watch for our upcoming report on the demonstration outside the building with video and more photos.)
The security in and around the courthouse was very strange and unnerving, unlike anything we'd seen before. We have never been to a courthouse -- state or federal -- where any Homeland Security people were present. This time there were quite a few. (Two of them told us they came from Boston.) Everyone was required show an ID to enter the building. A security team searched the courtroom itself before anyone was allowed to go in.
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Right-wing terror alert? The Home-land Security agents were highly visible. They even brought their dogs! |
Judging by where the Homeland Security people stood and how they moved around, particularly outside the building, they seemed more interested in watching the pro-family people (the "radical right"?) than the homosexual activists who were clearly more aggressive. (Most of Lively's supporters were middle-aged, and none were rowdy.)
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The police seemed much more interested in being on the side of the building -- watching our people? |
But also, while Scott Lively's Holy Grounds Coffee House is located about a half mile from the courthouse, two (and possibly three) Homeland Security vans were parked within 100 feet of it. Also, they were particularly strict about pro-family people not being able to video even in the court's outer vestibule (outside of the security check), even though the posted regulations seem to allow it. After the hearing, when the pro-family people left the area the Homeland Security people largely dispersed, even though the homosexual activists continued their activities outside.
The First Circuit Court is considered one of the most liberal in the country, and unfortunately Judge Ponsor did not disappoint in that regard.
He started off by saying that the courthouse had never seen such a big crowd for a hearing. Then said, "I'm pleased to adjudicate issues that affect the people of Uganda" -- an odd statement for a US Federal Judge to make. (We thought he was adjudicating a case about an American citizen!) Looking at the contingent in the audience from Africa, he remarked that it was "good to see the people whose interests are directly affected."
There was no question where Ponsor's political feelings lay. He mentioned that Lively had "identified the gay movement as evil and destructive, and should be destroyed." At one point he described Pastor Lively as "kind of a minister of propaganda" who "kept the rhetoric turned up and inspired people."
Ponsor made a point of saying that the First Amendment "includes speech that we hate" (referring to Lively's alleged pro-family discussions in Uganda) and further characterized them as "deeply offensive to many people."
He repeatedly described the homosexual movement in Uganda as "groups [that] should be treated equally and given equal rights." But he didn't address whether groups got different legal "rights" in different countries.
Finally, the normal procedure for a Motion to Dismiss hearing for the defense to go first in the questioning process by the judge and the prosecution to follow. Ponsor announced that this time he was turning it around: the prosecution would go first and answer his questions. It was very unusual. It appeared that he wanted to give them a greater opportunity to solidify their case, which on paper was weak.
All of this indicated that the homosexuals' "pack the courtroom" strategy seems to have worked. The judge was clearly influenced and somewhat intimidated by the huge crowd that showed up along with the Soros-backed organization arguing the lawsuit. One certainly got the impression that an ordinary lawyer bringing up such an outrageous set of claims would have been dismissed in short order.
How can an American citizen be tried in a US court on making speeches in another country that were perfectly legal there? To allow this, the plaintiffs are attempting to use the Alien Tort Act, an obscure US law dating back to the 1700s. And they are admittedly using it in a way that (as they admit in their brief) has never been attempted before.
However, the US Supreme Court is currently taking up an important case involving the Alien Tort Act, Kiobel v. Royal Dutch Petroleum Co., which could affect this case. So last summer Lively's lawyers moved to postpone this case until the Supreme Court rules on it, which would take up to a year. But Judge Ponsor denied that motion.
At this hearing, Judge Ponsor announced that he was not going to consider the Alien Tort Act in this case -- even though doing so would surely help Scott Lively due to the unprecedented way the Act is being applied here -- because the Supreme Court is currently taking it up and his ruling regarding it could be contradicted!
Ponsor said that all of his questions today would revolve on First Amendment issues. It naturally seems odd to apply the US First Amendment law to speech that took place in a foreign country. But CCR is attempting to use that Alien Tort Act to claim that Lively's "free speech" in Uganda should be prosecuted as if it had it happened here, even though Lively was never charged with any crimes in Uganda. And they allege it crossed the line to criminal activity under US law.
Not surprisingly, Ponsor started the questioning to the CCR lawyer, Pam Spees, by stating that he is "struggling to see actionable behavior" in anything Lively did or said. He said he still can't see any of Lively's conduct that is "persecution" or "conspiracy."
Even though Pastor Lively's speeches (i.e., discussions of pro-family issues regarding homosexuality) constituted "speech that we hate," said the judge, how could he be prosecuted for it? Under US First Amendment law, how did it constitute inciting violence, torture, persecution, conspiracy, murder, and human rights abuses, as the lawsuit claims?
In other words, after reading the prosecution's lengthy complaint against Lively, the judge is still asking, "Where's the substance?"
Answering the judge's appeal for something of substance, Spees threw out everything she could.
She claimed that Lively came to Uganda to create a "severe deprivation of fundamental rights on the bases of identity . . . a widespread attack on a population." She said that he was "planning with co-conspirators in Uganda," telling people to "ban gay pride parades" and "discriminate." Lively "aligned and plotted" with people, and his actions caused injuries and deaths to innocent homosexuals, she explained.
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This is the kind of childish stuff we saw a lot of. |
In addition, she charged, Lively met with government officials and helped them draft severe legislation that, even though it ultimately didn't pass, caused a chain of reaction of violence. His actions were "choreographed" to deny people the "enjoyment of basic rights."
Spees went to great lengths to compare CCR's lawsuit against Lively to the Nuremberg trials because Lively was like the Nazis, she said, in the way that they denied the rights of Jews. The First Amendment doesn't protect this, she argued.
She even threw in State of Massachusetts law, saying that Lively was guilty of "discrimination" and "diversity" offenses.
The one bright spot of the hearing was the response to all this by Horatio Mihet, Lively's primary Liberty Counsel defense attorney.
Mihet was simply brilliant. He started by labeling CCR's case as "purposeful confusion" and took off from there. One by one, he took on each of Spees's charges, statements, and allegations against Lively and ripped them to shreds with legal reasoning, logic, facts, and his extensive research from past court cases.
Mihet showed how CCR is blaming Lively for activity that happened literally years after his speeches and discussions in Uganda. Moreover, the plaintiffs could not demonstrate that Lively had any connection whatsoever to anyone who committed any illegal activity; he had certainly never met them nor was there even evidence they even heard him speak. Some of the illegal acts were blamed on incendiary newspaper articles about homosexuality. But the newspapers never interviewed Lively and the articles never referred to him. It's basically fabrication.
What about Lively's meetings with government officials, which allegedly later ended up with the so-called "kill the gays" bill (which Lively actually disagreed with) that CCR says "deprived gays of rights"? But people meet with government officials on public policy matters all the time. There's nothing illegal about that. Mihet pointed out that under that logic, anyone who met with California public officials about the Proposition 8 in California or other anti-gay-marriage laws could be similarly charged with "crimes against humanity."
Mihet additionally dismantled the "conspiracy" charges using the famous "Dr. Spock" case from the Vietnam War era, which involved the First Amendment and charges of conspiracy. Dr. Benjamin Spock had written a manual counseling students to break the law by burning their draft cards, and he was even present at a rally where they did it. The government charged him with conspiracy. But because he was only watching them at the rally and not actually participating, the courts said he and his writings had First Amendment protection. Lively's speeches and discussions, of course, came nowhere close to that. "The prosecution grossly misstates the law on conspiracy in the first amendment," Minot told the court.
Mihet meticulously demonstrated how every one of the charges and allegations against Lively have no legal basis whatsoever, and furthermore are based on purposeful untruths, exaggerations, and misstatements by the prosecution.
It was great to watch Mihet in action. He was passionate but calm, and had an enormous number of facts at the tip of his tongue. He ran circles around Pam Spees, and handled the questions from the judge so thoroughly that Ponsor finally cut him off. (Ponsor actually gave the prosecution much more time to talk, which was unusual for that kind of hearing.)
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Pastor Lively's Holy Grounds Coffee House, a half-mile away, was a place of interest to America's Homeland Security agents. |
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The questions to Spees and the rebuttals by Mihet continued to go back and forth. Ponsor brought up the injunction against Lively that they are seeking. He asked Spees, "If I were to issue an injunctive order, how would I do it? She answered that the judge should "prohibit him from stripping rights away." She added, "I agree that's novel."
The judge said that "it is probably not necessary to allege Lively was leading a mob" to deprive gay people of their rights. But there had to be some active connection, and so far she hasn't demonstrated it. She answered that Lively "encouraged the criminalization" of homosexuality, and that he was part of a conspiracy to do that.
The judge asked for actual evidence about the alleged conspiracy. Spees admitted that even though there was not a direct evidence of a conspiracy at this time, they would surely find one if the case were allowed to continue. In "discovery", she said, there is no question that the conspiracy would clearly emerge going through the various emails and other communication between Lively and others.
Mihet jumped all over that one. You cannot sue someone on the basis that you will find the sufficient facts later to justify it. You must have them now to file a lawsuit. The judge was forced to agree.
After 1½ hours, it clearly appeared that CCR really hadn't put anything together that the judge seemed to agree made a legitimate case. But he didn't react that way. He gave the impression that there might still be something there that will come to him as he thinks it over. He ended the hearing by saying that he would submit a written decision. He didn't give a time frame, but these typically can come as early as a few weeks or as far out as several months.
Based on what we heard at this hearing, even though there is a fairly high bar for throwing out this kind of case, it seems to have been easily reached. There's just nothing there except angry rhetoric. Does the judge have the nerve to agree -- and thus humiliate the homosexual activists? We have to wait and see.
Strangely, the reaction by the homosexual activists was one of jubilation. They were dancing and singing as if the judge had already allowed the case to go forward. They carried on outside with their rally and speeches and the general adolescent behavior that we've gotten used to.
We will have photos and video on their demonstration and rally at the courthouse, including video and photos, in an upcoming email.
Homosexual activists are often seen as engaging in specious argumentation, such as attempts to controvert the consistent teaching of the Bible on homosexual relations (see homosexuality and biblical interpretation), and using false analogies, in order to gain acceptance of homosexuality. One common argument used by homosexual activists seeks to compare their quest for equal rights to that of others.[30] This argument is countered by the observation that blacks were able to peacefully argue that mankind should not be "judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character"[31], as the former yields no certain moral distinction. In contrast, homosexual activists seek acceptance of an immoral practice(s), and in addition, engage in certain coercive and manipulative means to do so. This includes the use of demonstrative protests, which appear to be designed to censure and intimidate those who oppose them in any way.[32][33][34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42] In addition, one pro-homosexual commentator recently took the homosexual community to task for being racist in their practice of homosexuality.[43] Another strategy used by supporters of the homosexual agenda is to publicly deny that such an agenda exists.[44]
While not all homosexuals agree with the use of deceptive psychological tactics, these have been promoted by leading homosexual activists. The aforementioned book, After the Ball, is widely regarded as the handbook for the gay agenda, in which two Harvard-trained (homosexual) psychologists [45] Marshall Kirk (1957 - 2005) and Hunter Madsen (pen name Erastes Pill, who was also schooled in social marketing) advocated avoiding portraying gays as aggressive challengers, but as victims instead, while making all those who opposed them to be evil persecutors. As a means of the latter, they promoted jamming, in which Christians, traditionalists, or anyone else who opposes the gay agenda are publicly smeared. Their strategy was based on the premise that, "In any campaign to win over the public, gays must be portrayed as victims in need of protection so that straights will be inclined by reflex to adopt the role of protector. The purpose of victim imagery is to make straight people feel very uncomfortable."
Ping.
Ping. Revealing strategies of those working for darkness. Pray and preach.
Wow...just cannot believe how extreme some of these HomoNazi Liberal groups are going out of their way to attack Christians
Fortunately Liberty Counsel is there...probably the best thing coming out of the Orlando area in recent times.
Only in Stalinist Massachusetts would a judge even consider letting a case like this go forward
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I'm pinging both lists even though the topic is specifically the homosexual agenda - and persecution via the courts of a good man, Scott Lively. This is another attack against the First Amendment, and a serious one. The attack is agains freedom of speech and freedom of religion. It is not the first such attack, not the last. All of our God given rights are in serious jeopardy. May God bless Scott Lively.
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I'm pinging both lists even though the topic is specifically the homosexual agenda - and persecution via the courts of a good man, Scott Lively. This is another attack against the First Amendment, and a serious one. The attack is agains freedom of speech and freedom of religion. It is not the first such attack, not the last. All of our God given rights are in serious jeopardy. May God bless Scott Lively.
That Satan has already been defeated by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ - and which he knows QUITE well - only appears to not effect his plans. We know that he knows his time is short and, in whatever time he has left, he will try to wreak the most havoc he can. Incidents such as the one in this article is but a small sample of his overall plan. Men such as George Soros - atheists full of self-pride for their worldly successes - clamor to support the downfall of societies that they presume to be inferior to the supreme plans they have for the world with themselves, naturally, reigning over all and ushering in their grand plans without a "God" to set moral boundaries or obstacles. Yet, how blind they are to the truth that Jesus said, "For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" (Mark 8:36) and again, "The One enthroned in heaven laughs; the Lord scoffs at them. Then he rebukes them in his anger." (Psalm 2:4,5)
What we who love the Lord and obey His commands must do is to stand strong against the evil that threatens to overcome all that is good. We already KNOW it will not. When He comes He will find us faithful to His truth and standing up for what HE has deemed right and wrong. May God bless and strengthen men like this pastor and all those who will face resistance to their stands for truth. He will never leave us or forsake us so we may boldly say, "The Lord is my helper, of whom shall I be afraid?"
Genesis 18:20-21
20. Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
21. that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
Genesis 19:4-7
4. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
5. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6. Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7. and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.
Isaiah 3:9 The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.
2 Peter 2:13b Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
Ezekiel 16:49-50
49. "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.
1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5. if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6. if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8. (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9. if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11. yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.
But there IS hope!!!
1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape...
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OTOH, the imagery of the various Pride activities; of homosexual conventions; of ever raunchier annual Folsom Street fairs, and other such "fairs" make this, and many more, straight people very uncomfortable; and not in the way they want.
Nice picture of the butt-lickers and carpet munchies and the rest of the pervert alliance, all in one location. Register them as sex offenders while they are there.
Thanks for the ping, but for some reason i receive three of them each time.
People often say that Christ said nothing about homosexuality in the New Testament. I think he spoke quite loudly when he sent out the 72 in Luke 10 12:
I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
(any town that rejects you)
bump to the top
May your tribe increase.
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