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No, the United States Will Never, Ever Turn Into Greece
The Atlantic ^ | 03/08/2013 | Matthew O' Brien

Posted on 03/08/2013 7:10:03 AM PST by SeekAndFind

Have you read the opinion section of any newspaper in the last three years? Yes? Then there is a better-than-even chance you have come across some impressive-sounding analyst predict that the United States is "turning into Greece."

Maybe it's been a while, so we'll recap. The short version of this story is that we'll spend ourselves into bankruptcy. The longer version says that too much public debt makes markets nervous. Nervous markets demand higher interest rates. Higher rates mean higher deficits and lower growth, both of which mean more burdensome debt. More burdensome debt makes markets even more nervous. And around and around we go in a vicious circle into insolvency.

As far as scare stories go, this is pretty damn scary. It's also just a story. Rates haven't risen as debt has the last few years; they have fallen to historic lows. Of course, that hasn't stopped the Greek chorus from predicting that the economy is going to Hades. But when? Is it when debt reaches 100 percent of GDP? Or 90 percent, as Carmen Reinhart and Kenneth Rogoff famously argued?

What about 80 percent?

That was the bright white line drawn in a recent paper by David Greenlaw, James Hamilton, Peter Hooper and Frederic Mishkin. Greenlaw & Co. ran regressions on 20 advanced economies from 2000 to 2011 to see if there's a relationship between a country's borrowing costs one year and its gross debt, net debt, and 5-year current account average the previous one. (Glossary Interlude: Gross debt refers to the total amount of debt, including debt the government owes to itself. Net debt is the amount held by the public, minus any government assets. Current account is the balance of trade, which includes both net exports and net income on foreign investments).

(Excerpt) Read more at theatlantic.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bankruptcy; debt; greece
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1 posted on 03/08/2013 7:10:03 AM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

The media’s new motto: The gov’t still has money because it still has paper.


2 posted on 03/08/2013 7:13:27 AM PST by vbmoneyspender
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To: SeekAndFind

So why does he think we won’t turn into Greece? Because we borrow in our own currency and can print money to cover it. Great. That gives me a lot of comfort. The reality is we are Greece in the sense that we cannot stop spending. We have a Welfare State that we can’t pay for and don’t want to cut back. And if there is even a remote attempt to cut it back, people riot. In some ways, we are worse than Greece because we can borrow in our own currency. At least with Greece, there is the discipline of borrowing in another currency to stop the party.


3 posted on 03/08/2013 7:14:33 AM PST by Opinionated Blowhard ("When the people find they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.")
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To: SeekAndFind
One has only to look at the US of the past, look at the US of the here-and-now, and extrapolate forward.

Tough times ahead.

4 posted on 03/08/2013 7:14:58 AM PST by The Duke (We don't rent pigs, but apparently we *do* ELECT them.)
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To: SeekAndFind
We will never turn to Greece because Greece keeps evolving, too. By the time we reach their current level, they will turn to Ecuador.
5 posted on 03/08/2013 7:15:04 AM PST by alecqss
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To: vbmoneyspender
No, the United States Will Never, Ever Turn Into Greece

Yeah - and this won't hurt.

You can trust me.

It's not about the money.

You don't have to be afraid.

I am not a crook.

I did not have sex with THAT woman...

I am not a dictator...

Someone's doth protesting too much...

6 posted on 03/08/2013 7:17:32 AM PST by GOPJ (DHS HAS secured: 1.6 BILLION bullets - 2.700 tanks and 35,000 drones ...to use on American soil...)
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To: SeekAndFind

People “on the inside” in DC know the crash is coming and some are serious “preppers”.

Any information or articles to the contrary are either whistling through the graveyard or just trying to keep the balls in the air just a little longer.


7 posted on 03/08/2013 7:17:41 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: vbmoneyspender
No, the United States Will Never, Ever Turn Into Greece

Yeah - and this won't hurt.

You can trust me.

It's not about the money.

You don't have to be afraid.

I am not a crook.

I did not have sex with THAT woman...

I am not a dictator...

United States Will Never, Ever Turn Into Greece...

Someone's doth protesting too much...

8 posted on 03/08/2013 7:18:13 AM PST by GOPJ (DHS HAS secured: 1.6 BILLION bullets - 2.700 tanks and 35,000 drones ...to use on American soil...)
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To: vbmoneyspender
The media’s new motto: The gov’t still has money because it still has paper.

Obama's stash.

9 posted on 03/08/2013 7:18:57 AM PST by Thane_Banquo ( Walker 2016)
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To: SeekAndFind

The USA is waaaay past bankruptcy. It is nothing but a shell game now.


10 posted on 03/08/2013 7:19:50 AM PST by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: SeekAndFind

” - - - predict that the United States is “turning into Greece.” - - - “

Duh, does that mean that The Former United States of America is NOT ‘To Big to Fail?’


11 posted on 03/08/2013 7:19:53 AM PST by Graewoulf ((Traitor John Roberts' Commune Obama"care" violates Anti-Trust Laws, AND the U.S. Constitution.))
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To: F15Eagle

We have passed the “Event Horizon”.


12 posted on 03/08/2013 7:22:42 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: vbmoneyspender

When we do, we won’t be throwing yogurt. We’ll be throwing lead.


13 posted on 03/08/2013 7:22:48 AM PST by TurboZamboni (Looting the future to bribe the present)
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To: F15Eagle

The USA is in a position analogous to where Donald Trump was 25 years ago.

He was into his creditors so deep that if he actually did declare bankruptcy he’d have taken them all down with him. So they had every incentive to keep him afloat, which they have done.

The ChiComs, Saudis, and anyone else whom we might take down if we failed will continue to do likewise.


14 posted on 03/08/2013 7:24:17 AM PST by Buckeye McFrog
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To: SeekAndFind

Up until about 2 months ago, I believed that the Fed was printing $40B every month in new paper money.

They are not. Presses can’t work that fast.

They are simply adding that amount virtually, electronically, via computer, to the reserve amount. Printing non-existent, non-paper money with a click of the mouse.

We’re not Greece, though. Wink wink.


15 posted on 03/08/2013 7:25:33 AM PST by lurk
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To: SeekAndFind

This is the dumbest article ever written possible. Clearly any nation or empire can crumble or fall into deep economic problems.

One big difference, is I doubt Greece has the level of intensely violent inner city populations that will go ape sh*t when they don’t get their welfare checks.


16 posted on 03/08/2013 7:25:42 AM PST by MNDude (I survived the sequester!)
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To: vbmoneyspender

The media’s new motto: The gov’t still has money because it still has paper.


Paper is SOOOOO 20th century. Now they use bits. They have quite a few.


17 posted on 03/08/2013 7:27:46 AM PST by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: Opinionated Blowhard

Economies are like cars. They crash all the time but for different reasons and with varying degrees of impact. NO, we’re not Greece. Big deal. It’s like saying that we’re in a sports car and Greece is an SUV so we’re not going to all die in a rollover accident.

No, we’re gonna all die in a high speed accident when we slide off the road and wrap the car around a tree.

Same result, though.


18 posted on 03/08/2013 7:30:04 AM PST by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: The Duke

One has only to look at the US of the past, look at the US of the here-and-now, and extrapolate forward.
Tough times ahead.


I’m reminded of the near future in Looper, sans loopers and TK’s.


19 posted on 03/08/2013 7:30:50 AM PST by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: GOPJ

These are not the droids you are looking for...


20 posted on 03/08/2013 7:31:38 AM PST by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: MrB

Probably why there is no prominent USA in endtimes Bible prophecy - shocking what has happened to our country.


21 posted on 03/08/2013 7:33:10 AM PST by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: MrB

We have passed the “Event Horizon”.


Yep. That was around 2007. It’s why, two weeks before the 2008 election, I bought a small farm in central KY and, in late summer of 2011 moved there from my home of 45 years, Seattle.

On a side note, if the pink pony people turn out to be right, we still made a great move. We LOVE it here. Wish we had done it 30 years ago.


22 posted on 03/08/2013 7:33:35 AM PST by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Turning into Greece?

Looks to me like we’re there.

Our productive class has definitely fallen below 50% of the population; that seems to me to have tipped us to the negative slope.


23 posted on 03/08/2013 7:37:07 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Freepers: Not as smart as I'd hoped they'd be)
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To: SeekAndFind
That's because the U.S. has a monopoly on...monopoly money...

(hmmm, isn't "monopoly" a "Greek" word for counterfeiting or something? /s)

24 posted on 03/08/2013 7:38:26 AM PST by RckyRaCoCo (Shall Not Be Infringed)
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To: cuban leaf

Whereabouts in Kentucky? I’m looking for someplace to move away from the Zombie Ground Zero that is the Washington DC area, in a few years.


25 posted on 03/08/2013 7:41:43 AM PST by PLMerite (Shut the Beyotch Down! Burn, baby, burn!)
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To: GOPJ

Another of history’s Fatuous Platitudes. OF COURSE America will slide into the tar pit that has trapped Greece, it will be Greece raised to an exponential degree. Before long, the world is just going to agree that the US currency is just so much worthless paper, and stop trading in terms of “dollars”.

There will be some arcane “basket of commodities” on which the weighted values of foodstuffs, energy sources, precious metals and technological engineering products will be the standard of trade, and the dollar will be cut loose, to seek whatever level it can.

Then, if the US Treasury attempts to borrow, they shall be subject to the same strictures on the market that everybody else is - how you gonna pay it back? That mafioso that runs the world financial markets will use this leverage to go out breaking kneecaps and selecting assassinations to force compliance.

I do not see any prospect for a fair and free world any time soon.


26 posted on 03/08/2013 7:42:35 AM PST by alloysteel (What is all too obvious, is not obvious to all. Until it is too late to reverse course.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Gosh, the US will never be Greece. The level of writing has certainly improved at the Atlantic.
The Atlantic - full of old wrecks, crabs and fish s**t.


27 posted on 03/08/2013 7:43:38 AM PST by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: GOPJ

Don’t forget the classic...”I’m from the government and I’m here to help”.


28 posted on 03/08/2013 7:44:35 AM PST by albie (re)
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To: PLMerite

“central” is as specific as I’ll get.

I’ll throw out two hints:

1. If you search “kentucky” in google maps, the “dot” is within ten miles of my home.
2. I live in cornbread mafia land. (google it)


29 posted on 03/08/2013 7:44:52 AM PST by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Apparently this guy is unable to grasp the concept of “artificially low interest rates”.


30 posted on 03/08/2013 7:45:15 AM PST by Georgia Girl 2 (The only purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should never have dropped.)
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To: cuban leaf

You should take steps to live a better life
whether things get bad
or not.


31 posted on 03/08/2013 7:45:18 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: SeekAndFind

I am reminded of all those “Greece will never be Zimbabwe” articles.


32 posted on 03/08/2013 7:48:24 AM PST by Viennacon
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To: vbmoneyspender
Not all debt is created equal. Countries that borrow in a currency they control play under a different set of rules.

There was a time when Greece could borrow and repay in its own currency too. Same with every other country with a crappy economy.

There will come a day when the U.S. cannot repay debts in U.S. dollars.

We are Greece.

33 posted on 03/08/2013 7:51:19 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: SeekAndFind

No we won’ be Greece,

We will be Zimbabwe


34 posted on 03/08/2013 8:08:57 AM PST by qam1 (There's been a huge party. All plates and the bottles are empty, all that's left is the bill to pay)
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To: MrB

Probably why there is no prominent USA in endtimes Bible prophecy - shocking what has happened to our country.


35 posted on 03/08/2013 8:11:27 AM PST by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: F15Eagle

A half-hour span double post?


36 posted on 03/08/2013 8:14:10 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: SeekAndFind

Turing into the Soviet Union is a lot more likely than turning onto Greece.


37 posted on 03/08/2013 8:23:03 AM PST by Salman
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To: cuban leaf

I’m sure it’s a sight better than where I am. I’m looking for someplace where I can get enough arable land to make a stab at being self-sufficient for when/if/when the grid goes down.


38 posted on 03/08/2013 8:29:47 AM PST by PLMerite (Shut the Beyotch Down! Burn, baby, burn!)
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To: SeekAndFind

More likely that we’ll turn into Mexico. Many places in this country already have. Have you seen some of the Colonias near the Mexican border???


39 posted on 03/08/2013 8:29:47 AM PST by AuntB (Illegal immigration is simply more "share the wealth" socialism and a CRIME not a race!)
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To: F15Eagle

Yeah. We’re there. U.S. is the “eagle’s wings” that are plucked from the back of the “lion” (U.K.) in the book of Daniel. (Irvin Baxter, End of the Age)


40 posted on 03/08/2013 8:37:30 AM PST by Twinkie (JOHN 3:16)
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To: cuban leaf
These are not the droids you are looking for...

Good one cubanleaf - list worthy...

41 posted on 03/08/2013 8:40:13 AM PST by GOPJ (DHS HAS secured: 1.6 BILLION bullets - 2.700 tanks and 35,000 drones ...to use on American soil...)
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To: MrB

Funky device - bad coonection - no refresh until double post - aaaaargh


42 posted on 03/08/2013 8:41:03 AM PST by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: SeekAndFind

43 posted on 03/08/2013 8:45:41 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: alloysteel
Before long, the world is just going to agree that the US currency is just so much worthless paper, and stop trading in terms of “dollars”.

You're right on this - it's the reason countries like Haiti can't 'print money' to buy their way out of problems.

China's basically quit buying our debt - others are following... Reserve currency status is an honor and responsibility. If treated as a way to rip-off other countries - and scam our own citizens - we'll lose it. When that happens, we won't be Greece - we'll be Haiti.

44 posted on 03/08/2013 8:52:18 AM PST by GOPJ (DHS HAS secured: 1.6 BILLION bullets - 2.700 tanks and 35,000 drones ...to use on American soil...)
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To: PLMerite; cuban leaf

I too live in Kentucky. My wife and I had been searching for a place since 2003, (Yeah, I saw the writing on the wall even back then), We found our little slice of heaven here in central Kentucky in 2005 and moved here in 2007.

It’s a great place but the economy is poor. It’s best to have an outside the area income if you can manage it. It’s poor in my county and I’ve heard that up to 80% of the populace is on assistance of one sort or another. All of the store have the “We accept EBT” signs.

So if the “Zombie Apocalypse” aka TSHTF occurs it will affect us here just as much as anywhere else. The caveat is that with some land you can homestead easily and at least feed your family.

Best of luck in your searching.


45 posted on 03/08/2013 8:55:36 AM PST by The Working Man
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To: PLMerite

Ours is 12 acres in the form of an entire finger of a plateau. Part of it is wooded hillside, but there are about 8 acres of field around our house. We have a half acre garden and 20 or so chickens. The rest we cut as hay for now. The great thing is the property is perfect for both solar and wind power. We get just enough wind to be a potential source of power but not be annoying.


46 posted on 03/08/2013 8:59:09 AM PST by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: The Working Man

I too live in Kentucky. My wife and I had been searching for a place since 2003, (Yeah, I saw the writing on the wall even back then), We found our little slice of heaven here in central Kentucky in 2005 and moved here in 2007.

It’s a great place but the economy is poor. It’s best to have an outside the area income if you can manage it. It’s poor in my county and I’ve heard that up to 80% of the populace is on assistance of one sort or another. All of the store have the “We accept EBT” signs.

So if the “Zombie Apocalypse” aka TSHTF occurs it will affect us here just as much as anywhere else. The caveat is that with some land you can homestead easily and at least feed your family.


All things I’ve noticed as well, but I will add one thing: Most of my neighbors have a lot of livestock. We would become a “guarded” community. I would not want to live close to the small towns around here. I think they would actually, though to a lesser degree, become ugly like the cities.

BTW, the remarks on the economy hint at why I do a 75 minute commute at 70 mph.


47 posted on 03/08/2013 9:01:49 AM PST by cuban leaf (Were doomed! Details at eleven.)
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To: The Working Man

I’ll be retired by then and hopefully on a good pension for at least a few years before things get bad. Even if the pension doesn’t materialize being there is better than being where I am now. For as much as one might fantasize about a “target-rich environment,” this area will be a deathtrap for anyone not of the Dem-o-graphic norm, if you get my drift.


48 posted on 03/08/2013 9:14:56 AM PST by PLMerite (Shut the Beyotch Down! Burn, baby, burn!)
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To: vbmoneyspender
They just have to start printing dollar bills on perforated rolls.

At least then they will be useful for something.

49 posted on 03/08/2013 9:17:26 AM PST by pierrem15 (Claudius: "Let all the poisons that lurk in the mud hatch out.")
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To: cuban leaf

Sounds like paradise (I know, that’s in western Kentucky). A garden, some animals, distance if not seclusion. In my mind maybe more than 12 acres, but I’m not familiar with any kind of farming so that might be plenty.

Thanks for the information!


50 posted on 03/08/2013 9:27:07 AM PST by PLMerite (Shut the Beyotch Down! Burn, baby, burn!)
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