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Supreme Court sides with timber industry in logging road runoff dispute
The Oregonian ^ | March 20, 2013 | AP

Posted on 03/20/2013 8:56:20 AM PDT by jazusamo

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court on Wednesday sided with timber interests in a dispute over the regulation of runoff from logging roads in western forests.

In a 7-1 vote, the court reversed a federal appeals court ruling that held that muddy water running off roads used in industrial logging is the same as any other industrial pollution, requiring a Clean Water Act permit from the Environmental Protection Agency.

(Excerpt) Read more at oregonlive.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; US: Oregon; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: agenda21; animalrights; ar; bhoepa; cleanwateract; environazis; epa; logging; ruling; scotus; timber; un21; water; west
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1 posted on 03/20/2013 8:56:20 AM PDT by jazusamo
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To: george76; Flycatcher; girlangler

Ping to a win for the timber industry.


2 posted on 03/20/2013 8:57:22 AM PDT by jazusamo ("Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent." -- Adam Smith)
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To: jazusamo

Excellent...A real blow to enviro-nazis. Nothing but plain common sense.


3 posted on 03/20/2013 8:58:31 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: jazusamo

Muddy water is industrial pollution???...Asshats for the environment please get a grip!


4 posted on 03/20/2013 8:58:48 AM PDT by AngelesCrestHighway
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To: jazusamo

Now...about the dumb owl....It doesn’t need millions of acres of woodlands to survive....It needs to scr** its brains out. Viagara for birds??


5 posted on 03/20/2013 9:00:10 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: Jet Jaguar; NorwegianViking; ExTexasRedhead; HollyB; FromLori; EricTheRed_VocalMinority; ...

The list, Ping

Let me know if you would like to be on or off the ping list

http://www.nachumlist.com/

Obama and Agenda 21

http://www.nachumlist.com/agenda21.htm


6 posted on 03/20/2013 9:01:09 AM PDT by Nachum (The Obama "List" at www.nachumlist.com)
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To: jazusamo

good! - we cannot murder another industry


7 posted on 03/20/2013 9:03:29 AM PDT by WorkerbeeCitizen (I'll surrender my guns alright - bullets first)
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To: jazusamo

Antonin Scalia dissented, saying that the court gives EPA and other agencies the authority to say what their rules mean “for no good reason.”

?


8 posted on 03/20/2013 9:03:55 AM PDT by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: jazusamo

Smokey the bear gives a hat tip.


9 posted on 03/20/2013 9:05:19 AM PDT by Vaduz
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To: AngelesCrestHighway
The enviro-nazis don't miss a trick when it comes to shutting down business and industry. As one commenter posted, the wackos should be forced to pay all court costs from the free money they bilk from their enviro donors.
10 posted on 03/20/2013 9:08:39 AM PDT by jazusamo ("Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent." -- Adam Smith)
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To: jazusamo

Wow! Stunning!


11 posted on 03/20/2013 9:08:40 AM PDT by AuntB (Illegal immigration is simply more "share the wealth" socialism and a CRIME not a race!)
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To: AngelesCrestHighway

Crap.

More dead fish.

I hate environmental idiots as much as the next Freeper.

But runoff from loggers has (in my estimation) killed more fish than all the nets and hooks ever used.

You see, the silt from the runoff clogs the loose gravel spawning beds. The eggs suffocate.

I don’t mind that loggers log. It’s their land, and their tree. I don’t mind if they cut down every single tree they own.

But the moment their effluent comes into MY (read: OUR) river, they may not send their crap downstream.

The equivalent is if your neighbor’s septic system was directly routed to the property line, and spilled over onto your property. You’d rightly be pissed. He’s welcome to his effluent, and keep it controlled and managed on his property. But the moment his crap comes onto your lawn, it’s actionable.

Same with loggers. If they can control their dirt, I don’t care how many trees they take down. Just keep your damned dirt out of the salmon spawning beds. The loggers have killed so many millions already, they should have to do what we do in our yards: Keep your crap to yourself.

(In pure conservative economic terms, the issues are “free rider,” and “externality.” It is not a free market principle to allow free riders to externalize their costs onto others.)


12 posted on 03/20/2013 9:08:44 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Due Process 2013: "Burn the M*****-F***er Down!")
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To: george76

That’s a head slapper for me.


13 posted on 03/20/2013 9:09:30 AM PDT by jazusamo ("Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent." -- Adam Smith)
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To: Uncle Miltie

Uncle Miltie, the runoff from logging is NOTHING compared to the run off of outlawed chemicals and skinning the land that takes place on millions of acres of OUR public lands by armed illegal alien drug cartels growing dope.


14 posted on 03/20/2013 9:17:38 AM PDT by AuntB (Illegal immigration is simply more "share the wealth" socialism and a CRIME not a race!)
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To: Uncle Miltie
Your point is well taken and surely agreed to by most of us here. However, the states are already well equipped to regulate runoff and other environmental issues without the heavy hand of the EPA being involved.

This is a win for everyone (except the EnviroNazis, of course).

15 posted on 03/20/2013 9:19:06 AM PDT by doc11355
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To: Uncle Miltie

You have a point. I am a fisherman also. Proper drainage along the road to a holding pit should be required not total banning of logging like the numbnuts on the left want...


16 posted on 03/20/2013 9:19:42 AM PDT by AngelesCrestHighway
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To: Uncle Miltie
You are quite right. Kills fish, and increases dredging costs and water treatment costs. There are a number of relatively simple and inexpensive BMPs designed to alleviate sediment runoff, but when profit is your only concern, why bother?
17 posted on 03/20/2013 9:32:28 AM PDT by stormer
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To: doc11355

Agreed. Glad to hear States can take care correctly.

Now we need to de-list the “Northern” Spotted Owl, a fictional construct manufactured by environazis because the “California” Spotted Owl (the same critter, just to the South) is doing just fine.


18 posted on 03/20/2013 9:33:26 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Due Process 2013: "Burn the M*****-F***er Down!")
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To: doc11355

Some states may be well equipped, but a vast majority of logging takes place on National Forests, making it a federal, not state, issue.


19 posted on 03/20/2013 9:35:09 AM PDT by stormer
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To: AuntB

LOL!

I know that. I open-carried in the woods of Oregon because you’re more likely to run into a Mexican grow operation than you are a bear or cougar.


20 posted on 03/20/2013 9:35:30 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Due Process 2013: "Burn the M*****-F***er Down!")
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To: jazusamo

Exxcellent! VA also won a case vs the overwrought EPA last month.


21 posted on 03/20/2013 9:37:06 AM PDT by EDINVA
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To: Uncle Miltie

I agree on the Spotted Owl fiasco and also question the thing from the start. I know for a fact they live quite well in second growth, at least they were in So OR in the 80’s.


22 posted on 03/20/2013 9:47:01 AM PDT by jazusamo ("Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent." -- Adam Smith)
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To: AngelesCrestHighway

I’ve filled out 3 permits this week....you have no idea how regulated ‘erosion’ is.


23 posted on 03/20/2013 10:05:31 AM PDT by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: Sacajaweau
Now...about the dumb owl

The funny thing about the spotted owl is that it is being run off it's territory by the barred owl (a new preditor that is migrating to forests in the Pac NW).

So the tree huggers are wanting to kill all the barred owls before they lose their argument for killing logging,

24 posted on 03/20/2013 10:08:45 AM PDT by llevrok (Keep your arms out. It makes it harder for them to throw a net over you.)
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To: jazusamo
I know for a fact they live quite well in second growth

Yes, and very tasty with an orange sauce.

25 posted on 03/20/2013 10:11:31 AM PDT by llevrok (Keep your arms out. It makes it harder for them to throw a net over you.)
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To: stormer

Wrong, the majority of logging takes place on private property. The preservationists have been very effective in surpressing logging on Federal lands in the last 20 years. The result has been the extreme fire seasons as evidenced in places like Colorado last year. Most logging companies already leave a 100’ buffer around streams to keep runnoff from clogging up spawnning beds. This is just another surrogate issue created to stop logging in all western forests.

So when your house burns down because of a lightning strike on federal forest land creates a forest fire of dead beattle kill lodgepole pine spreads to your subdivision, you will have nobody to blame except yourself.


26 posted on 03/20/2013 10:13:00 AM PDT by woodbutcher1963
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To: Uncle Miltie
you’re more likely to run into a Mexican grow operation

Mexican grown operation
Vietnamese/Cambodian fern pickers

If you want to be a bit frightened, look at all the bullet holes in wilderness campground out houses and visualize yourself inside! Thank the above two groups for those holes, not a piliated wood pecker.

27 posted on 03/20/2013 10:14:46 AM PDT by llevrok (Keep your arms out. It makes it harder for them to throw a net over you.)
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To: llevrok
Never tried the orange sauce but they're pretty tasty with sauteed morels.

The barred owl thing with the enviros is a hoot, they really don't have a clue. On the one hand they've cost people billions in timber states to supposedly saved that damn owl but on the other hand they want to kill off the barred owl.

Everyone but themselves always have known they're insane and this proves it.

28 posted on 03/20/2013 10:19:24 AM PDT by jazusamo ("Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent." -- Adam Smith)
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To: llevrok



"MMMMMMMM......"


"Spotted Owl with orange sauce..."
29 posted on 03/20/2013 10:19:33 AM PDT by rottndog ('Live Free Or Die' Ain't just words on a bumber sticker...or a tagline.)
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To: Uncle Miltie

Silt is also the primary source of nutrients for streams. Which is more important - a few fish or a thriving economy?

Ohio (and America, by extension) made the “fish” choice on the Cuyahoga River, when that river was a waste channel which burned off the flammable flotsam.

Now, Ohio has a thriving bass fishing river and the Ohio steel industry is basically gone.

Question: Which makes more money for more people - selling fishing worms or a rail car of steel?


30 posted on 03/20/2013 10:19:41 AM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."..)
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To: GladesGuru

The issue at hand is logging, which happens primarily in the PNW, not the banks of the Ohio.

The steel industry in America did itself in with high (unionized) costs, tariffs, etc., IIRC.


31 posted on 03/20/2013 10:22:25 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Due Process 2013: "Burn the M*****-F***er Down!")
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To: GladesGuru

I live on the banks of the Rogue River and every winter we
watch the water turn muddy when we have the big storms. The first day the water is filled with tree trunks, logs, beer coolers, detritus and junk. We laugh at the EPA regulations because Mother Nature doesn’t know how to read.


32 posted on 03/20/2013 10:29:47 AM PDT by OregonRancher (Some days, it's not even worth chewing through the restraints)
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To: jazusamo
On the one hand they've cost people billions in timber states to supposedly saved that damn owl but on the other hand they want to kill off the barred owl.

Another negative effect...the reduction of US timber products on the open market keeps international prices artificially high, encouraging more logging in third world countries with little or NO environmental protections. Environmentalists are actually aiding the logging of the rainforests....

As I keep saying....environmentalists are actually quite bad for the environment.
33 posted on 03/20/2013 10:30:08 AM PDT by rottndog ('Live Free Or Die' Ain't just words on a bumber sticker...or a tagline.)
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To: Uncle Miltie
Aren't there regulations about how close to a river or creek they can log? My understanding is they have to be a certain distance from the rivers banks.

I live in Southern Oregon in Douglas County. Since they have shut down most the logging even on the county owned lands, we are in serious financial trouble. Did you know that we are in the 19th year of receiving 50 million dollars per year from the feds due to the restrictions put on logging our county owned lands? There are federal lands, state lands and O&C lands, county owned lands that were given to Coos, Curry, Josephine and Douglas from the feds to support our local governments over 80 years ago. They should never been included in the spotted owl suit.

BTW, the spotted owl population over the last 19 years has not increased at all, in fact they are now being eaten by the Bard owl and are diminishing in numbers big time. The coast range is the #1 growing area of Douglas Fir trees in the world. But all we do with them is grow them and then they all burn up in fires and even then we cannot log them and replant, there are thousands of acres of burnt forests that are rotting and growing weeds as the environmentalist won't allow us to harvest our burnt trees and replant. What I try to teach people is Oregon's resource crop are trees, instead of an annual crop ours is 40 years, let us manage them ourselves instead of a bunch of pinheads in DC that don't know anything about our resources and how to harness them to provide jobs and security for our population.

Meanwhile unemployment is over 15% and the only resource we are exporting any more are our children.

34 posted on 03/20/2013 10:37:38 AM PDT by thirst4truth (www.Believer.com)
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To: Uncle Miltie

“The issue at hand is logging, which happens primarily in the PNW, not the banks of the Ohio.

The steel industry in America did itself in with high (unionized) costs, tariffs, etc., IIRC.”

“Environmental issues are paarmount” is the core premise.

Unions have to have regulatory protection or employers usually find more productive and less expensive labor. Many costs imposed on the Ohio steel industry were imposed by the only force capable of such imposition - Government laws and or regulations.

The underlying motivation/purpose of all too many enviro laws/regs was the destruction of America’s economy and culture.


35 posted on 03/20/2013 10:56:58 AM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."..)
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To: jazusamo

Barred Owls must be Republicans.


36 posted on 03/20/2013 10:57:26 AM PDT by reg45 (Barack 0bama: Implementing class warfare by having no class.)
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

Comment #38 Removed by Moderator

To: jazusamo
On the one hand they've cost people billions in timber states

In my home town (Hoquiam WA), the only old growth still available is a 25 year old welfare office built during the spotted owl fiasco

I watched Bill Clinton hold the Timber Summit as one of his first acts to stimulate the economy. Promises unkept

Today, in a town that was literally built on forest products, the major industry is the building of state offices for the purpose of giving unemployed mexicans money

39 posted on 03/20/2013 11:24:54 AM PDT by llevrok (Keep your arms out. It makes it harder for them to throw a net over you.)
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To: jazusamo

1 win out of what 800?
Let’s save the snial darter or some other such B.S.


40 posted on 03/20/2013 11:46:58 AM PDT by Joe Boucher ((FUBO))
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To: george76; jazusamo

Scalia’s dissent is absolutely scathing in its criticism of the government. He knew that his vote wasn’t necessary to the outcome of the case, so he took the opportunity to point out how absurd the Court’s practice of giving defference to an administrative agency’s interpretation of its own authority is.


41 posted on 03/20/2013 12:14:17 PM PDT by Mr. Lucky
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To: Mr. Lucky

I’d bet you’re right, that would explain it.


42 posted on 03/20/2013 12:29:15 PM PDT by jazusamo ("Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent." -- Adam Smith)
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To: jazusamo; Lurking Libertarian; JDW11235; Clairity; TheOldLady; Spacetrucker; Art in Idaho; ...

FReepmail me to subscribe to or unsubscribe from the SCOTUS ping list.

43 posted on 03/20/2013 2:06:12 PM PDT by BuckeyeTexan (There are those that break and bend. I'm the other kind. ~Steve Earle)
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To: thirst4truth

I left Jacksonville 1.5 years ago. I know of which you speak.


44 posted on 03/20/2013 2:08:22 PM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Due Process 2013: "Burn the M*****-F***er Down!")
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To: jazusamo

will wonders never cease?


45 posted on 03/20/2013 2:09:55 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: stormer; Uncle Miltie
You are quite right. Kills fish, and increases dredging costs and water treatment costs. There are a number of relatively simple and inexpensive BMPs designed to alleviate sediment runoff, but when profit is your only concern, why bother?

Nonsense. I put in logging roads twenty years ago or better. Properly ditching and culvert installation was paramount, not only to Fed, State, and private owners, but was inherently important to the road builder. Roads are expensive to maintain or reinstall, so care was taken to preserve the road, with the expectation that it would be used for access again in the future.

Once the road settles in, there is very little runoff, because the drainage works to preserve the road.

But now that logging is non-existent, those roads are no longer passable. The machinery once owned by the loggers and road-builders that used to be employed on those roads to fight fire is gone too. You want to see runoff problems? See what a quarter-million acres of burnt forest produces.

Alongside of that, your position is cry-baby BS.

46 posted on 03/20/2013 2:21:57 PM PDT by roamer_1 (Globalism is just socialism in a business suit.)
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; ...

Thanks jazusamo.
...reversed a federal appeals court ruling that held that muddy water running off roads used in industrial logging is the same as any other industrial pollution, requiring a Clean Water Act permit from the Environmental Protection Agency.

47 posted on 03/20/2013 6:19:27 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: Sacajaweau

Ah yes, the famous Spotted Owl. Smoked over an open flame it tastes almost as good as a Bald Eagle.


48 posted on 03/21/2013 3:12:48 AM PDT by Portcall24
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To: roamer_1

The timber industry has come a long way over the past decades for which they have been given very little credit. Growing up in Southern Oregon I used to go into the woods near my home and find red clay logging roads that had become ditches with sides taller than I was. And the mills would empty their log ponds into the creek and it would turn black for weeks. The Environazis will never be happy until timber industry is dead! And what gets me is those groups are funded by contributions from idiots that have never, now will ever, set foot in the State.


49 posted on 03/21/2013 3:22:03 AM PDT by Portcall24
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To: roamer_1

I’ve seen whole mountain sides come down into the river because of logging. Perhaps it wasn’t the roads. See Deer Creek, North Fork of the Stillaguamish.


50 posted on 03/21/2013 7:43:20 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie (Due Process 2013: "Burn the M*****-F***er Down!")
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