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Abortion and Gay Marriage: Separate Issues: America today is more pro-gun, pro-life and pro-gay
National Review ^ | 03/22/2013 | Jonah Goldberg

Posted on 03/22/2013 7:16:39 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

Just because things can be put on the same list doesn’t mean they are necessarily similar. My attic contains within it thousands of comic books, an inflatable bed, a few jigsaw puzzles, some family pictures, and a Frampton Comes Alive! album. These things are, roughly speaking, in the same location, but they’re hardly of equal value, importance, or utility.

I bring this up for the simple reason that we’re hearing a lot about how the GOP must deal with “abortion and gay marriage” as if they are almost the same issue.

Well, in my house, I hear about my dog and my mortgage a lot. They’re both important — and complicated in their own ways — but they aren’t all that similar.

I think some liberals and some conservatives like to lump all social issues together, at least in part because they find their opponents’ positions on them so unfathomable. It’s like if an alien showed you a fnerk, a thrampahorn, and a zizzenbozzle, you’d be forgiven for assuming they’re all somehow related to each other.

In fact, for a long time the shorthand for social issues was “God, guns, and gays.” And a lot of analysts thought they would move all together. It turns out that various social issues stand or fall on their own.

If you’d predicted in the late 1980s that the country would become more pro-life, more pro-gun, and more pro-gay, the experts would’ve laughed at you. It drives some older liberals crazy that some young liberals are insufficiently pro-choice and it vexes some older conservatives that some young conservatives are insufficiently anti–gay marriage.

I myself have grown both more pro-life and more sympathetic to gay marriage.

I’ve been in favor of civil unions for more than a decade — back when it was considered a left-wing position, not a fallback right-wing one. And I’d probably still prefer civil unions if we had settled on some arrangement that conferred the economic and legal benefits of traditional marriage without calling it marriage. Still, gays have an entirely understandable reluctance to settle for that and, besides, I think the argument over whether or not to call civil unions “marriage” has been all but lost, though there’s a glimmer of hope the decision might eventually be left to the states (which I favor).

As for abortion, my migration has less to do with religious arguments and more to do with my growing distrust of the government. Who is and who isn’t a human being with unalienable rights is just about the biggest question there is. And the fact that the answer is usually obvious — that guy, not that fly — only makes it more important.

The government has an obligation to protect the life and liberty of the subset of human beings we call “Americans.” If you commit a crime that obligation changes, of course, since the government also has an obligation to protect the rest of us from those who would do us harm.

Well, I consider a fetus a human being. It has done no harm, nor has it committed a crime punishable by death. More important, I don’t like it when governments start getting clever about who counts as full human beings and who doesn’t (See: Slavery, U.S.; or Holocaust, Nazi). There are few areas where a bright line is more vital or necessary. (I bet it won’t be very long before science is able to tell us whether some fetuses will grow up to be gay or not. The politics of abortion will suddenly get more interesting, I suspect.)

But once you’re born, and — hopefully — properly raised, the government’s chief obligation is to stay out of your way — whether you’re straight or gay — so you can pursue happiness as you define it — not how, say, Michael Bloomberg or Pat Robertson defines it.

Which brings me back to gay marriage. Opponents of same-sex marriage insist gays have the same right to marry a person of the opposite sex as anyone else. It’s a clever line, but it overlooks the fact that romantic love has been the paramount reason for marriage for quite some time. Telling people they’re free to be unhappy isn’t all that persuasive.

The whole point of the American way is life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. So, come to think of it, maybe gay marriage and abortion have more in common than I thought.

— Jonah Goldberg is the author of the new book The Tyranny of Clichés.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: abortion; fudgepac; gaymarriage; guns; homosexualagenda; homosexuality; libertarians

1 posted on 03/22/2013 7:16:39 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind
I bring this up for the simple reason that we’re hearing a lot about how the GOP must deal with “abortion and gay marriage” as if they are almost the same issue.

republicans shouldn't even be discussing these issues. Shunning them will take away their power.
There are more important things to be discussing right now. Put the important issues in the headlines.

This is a big problem with republicans. They let the left set the agenda. Why not just ignore the left and talk about those things that matter to the American people instead?

Homosexual pseudo marriage? really? Is that the biggest problem in America today? Queers getting a piece paper to have kinky sex so they feel normal? Really? Seriously????

Get over it. Move on. Talk about something that matters for gosh sakes! Republicans are so stupid to fall for these low life traps.

.

2 posted on 03/22/2013 7:26:53 AM PDT by concerned about politics ("Get thee behind me, Liberal")
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To: concerned about politics
Homosexual pseudo marriage? really? Is that the biggest problem in America today? Queers getting a piece paper to have kinky sex so they feel normal? Really? Seriously????

And you're so naive to think that that's all it will entail? WAKE UP!!!!!

The imposition of same-sex "marriage" WILL affect ALL of us profoundly, whether you know it now or not. It is the current spear tip of the comprehensive liberal agenda, fiscal as well as social.

Again, WAKE UP!

3 posted on 03/22/2013 7:30:45 AM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Well Johah,

If you had any morality at all, you’d see that they are, in terms of immorality, one and the same.

Yes, two separate issues in terms of behaviors and actions, but in terms of what is really important, each in their own way are each very destructive of our culture and peoples lives.


4 posted on 03/22/2013 7:31:54 AM PDT by SoConPubbie (Mitt and Obama: They're the same poison, just a different potency)
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To: SeekAndFind
(I bet it won’t be very long before science is able to tell us whether some fetuses will grow up to be gay or not. The politics of abortion will suddenly get more interesting, I suspect.)

I've been saying this for nearly 20 years. I've had people even tell me that I'm being ridiculous, interpreting as "So, what? Abortion is bad unless he's gay?"

I wouldn't be surprised if we can already tell but they fear this very result.

5 posted on 03/22/2013 7:33:31 AM PDT by Tanniker Smith (Rome didn't fall in a day, either.)
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To: SeekAndFind
The only people who are pro-gay are usually gay themselves, live and work on the East Coast, inside the Beltway or West Coast mosty CA, insiders in "news" agencies or are in academia!

The rest of the country at large could care less what gays want to do to each other, we just don't want to hear about it!

Try to claim two sodomites a "marriage" and you'll lose whatever goodwill you have left in the Republican Party.

It's hello third party for the Republicans will truly join the Whigs or the Bull Moose Parties, seen any of them lately?

6 posted on 03/22/2013 7:34:13 AM PDT by zerosix (Native sunflower)
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To: SeekAndFind

“Telling people they’re free to be unhappy isn’t all that persuasive.”

What a ridiculous thing to say. We do this ALL THE TIME, and have been doing it since the DAWN OF TIME. If screwing a dog makes someone happy, are we wrong to tell them they can’t? If screwing a family member makes someone happy, are we wrong to tell them they can’t?

The entire concept of the law is denying people what makes them happy in defense of our society’s well-being. Kleptomaniacs love stealing. The Mafia love dumping people in the East River. Muslims love marrying six wives and threatening them with death if they ever disobey. The fact is, human beings are not good creatures, and naturally want to do unacceptable things. How do we judge what is unacceptable? We take that from human experience, and from our creator. We then pass laws that govern our society, that everyone has to obey for the good of that society.
We don’t sentence homosexuals to death (which they do in some countries) or prison (which they do in some countries).

As with other things, if homosexuals want to marry, why don’t they just leave, go to some socialist European country? They wouldn’t because those countries have civil societies in total collapse. Why is that? Because of crap like gay marriage, everyone gets a trophy, drive-in abortions, and forcing kids to shower with transgender freaks.


7 posted on 03/22/2013 7:42:33 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: SoConPubbie

The agenda is the destruction of the family resulting in total dependence on the State.

The left looks at 1984 as an instruction manual.


8 posted on 03/22/2013 7:43:54 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: fwdude; concerned about politics
And you're so naive to think that that's all it will entail? WAKE UP!!!!!
The imposition of same-sex "marriage" WILL affect ALL of us profoundly, whether you know it now or not. It is the current spear tip of the comprehensive liberal agenda, fiscal as well as social.
Again, WAKE UP!

You are correct. I wish it was only "issuing a piece of paper". In every state that has passed homosexual marriage laws, EVERYTHING about homosexuality is normalized. They starting teaching the normalness of homosexuality in kindergarten. Parents have to legally be referred to as "Parent A" and "Parent B"; kids are not allowed to refer in school to "mom and dad" so as not to offend the delicate sensibilities of kids in same sex marriage households. And anyone who refers to the homosexual lifestyle as anything less that normal in such states is guilty of hate speech. It will likely include churches as well

I wish this was only a "live and let live" situation; but it ain't.

9 posted on 03/22/2013 7:48:25 AM PDT by Sans-Culotte ( Pray for Obama- Psalm 109:8)
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To: fwdude
Nature strikes again!

City Health Officials Warn Some (Gay) Men on Lethal Strain of Meningitis

The homosexuals are dead within hours. You can't war with nature and expect to win.

10 posted on 03/22/2013 7:52:01 AM PDT by concerned about politics ("Get thee behind me, Liberal")
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To: concerned about politics

Yeah, I just saw that.

Don’t spread the word. I want it to remain covert. Yes, I want the promiscuous fags to die.


11 posted on 03/22/2013 7:56:46 AM PDT by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: SeekAndFind; stephenjohnbanker; ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas; Gilbo_3; Impy; NFHale; BillyBoy; ...
makes sense : Guns and abortion laws have huge $$$ organizations dedicated to making the arguments for them.

From what I have seen on gays there is no-one effectively arguing why that lifestyle is bad.
Only one side makes the case : that its a 'neutral' (not bad not good just different) condition that people are born with like race or sex and cant change, and that they must live it to its fullest to be fulfilled and happy. And that they hurt no one by doing that.

Adoption was first, then marriage, then the military, with vaguely written anti-discrimination laws anlong the way,

Republicans have not been countering it. Not Bush, no one in last years primary. Certainly not in a way intended to convince others. Clinton signed DOMA not Bush,

Only one side showed up for this fight.

Transsexuals are next.

12 posted on 03/22/2013 7:59:04 AM PDT by sickoflibs (O's sequester Apocalypse tour just proved why we need the 2nd amendment more than ever NOW!)
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To: SeekAndFind; sickoflibs

I do not consider myself pro-gay. I could care less what my neighbors do in their bedrooms. That does not make me ‘pro-gay’.


13 posted on 03/22/2013 8:03:33 AM PDT by Perdogg (Sen Ted Cruz is my adoptive Senator)
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To: SeekAndFind

Another fool, professing himself to be wise, but given over to a reprobate mind.

They are EXACTLY the same issue: Obedience to God or Rebellion against God.


14 posted on 03/22/2013 8:13:56 AM PDT by Waywardson (I did not vote for that pro-abortionist candidate!)
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To: Perdogg; SeekAndFind; Gilbo_3; Impy; NFHale
RE :”I do not consider myself pro-gay. I could care less what my neighbors do in their bedrooms. That does not make me ‘pro-gay’.

On the other side ....try .. How about the public schools teaching your kids that what they ‘do in their bedroom’ which is NOT what what I ‘do in my bedroom’ makes them a special protected class of human beings.

Doing drugs in my BR is not protected, risky dangerous practices in my bedroom is protected. My having a banned gun for my protection in my bedroom is not protected.

I dont have a right to have my Texas gun license honored BY states like NY, but I do have a right to have my Maryland sodomy license honored BY Georgia.

You see the problem? I am not gay. I have less rights. I am considered 3/5ths of a gay. (I should do this for a living)

15 posted on 03/22/2013 8:17:15 AM PDT by sickoflibs (O's sequester Apocalypse tour just proved why we need the 2nd amendment more than ever NOW!)
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To: Sans-Culotte

Please. Oppose gay marriage if you want, but not for fake reasons. There’s been gay marriage in Massachusetts for eight years and heterosexual life is going strong.

I spent weekends at the beach a month apart last summer in Texas and Cape Cod, the latter with (what seemed like) half the families Boston suburbs. From any measure you had to give the win to the Bostonians: fewer single-parent families, fewer tattoos, fewer grossly obese kids (which is a manifestation of disordered homes or negligent parenting), etc. Whatever indoctrination was going on in the classroom didn’t seem to keep the 15 year old boys from calling their parents mom and dad, or keeping their attention on the 15 year old girls.


16 posted on 03/22/2013 8:21:56 AM PDT by only1percent
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Only the flowery perception of “gay marriage” has garnered greater acceptance, not the appetite for anal and oral sex.


17 posted on 03/22/2013 8:46:27 AM PDT by Gene Eric (The Palin Doctrine.)
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To: only1percent; Sans-Culotte

>> Oppose gay marriage if you want, but not for fake reasons.

Sans-Culotte is correct: Law that promotes homosexual “marriage” is law designed to persecute those that refuse to support and service homosexual behavior.

Your waterfront analysis is hardly a true measure of the consequences.


18 posted on 03/22/2013 8:53:28 AM PDT by Gene Eric (The Palin Doctrine.)
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To: only1percent

You cite Massachusetts as some sort of model for family life? Tell me, how many of these ‘strong heterosexual’ men have stood up against the attempt to make their daughters shower with boys who call themselves transgender? Few that I can see. It looks to me like the majority are the most pathetic men in the country. I would sooner take the UKs model for society than the People’s Republic of Massachusetts. It’s not long before pedophilia is named as something to be ‘understood’ there.

Guess what? We did fine without this garbage for thousands of years. Now, Western Europe and the USA have become ‘tolerant’, and our civil societies are collapsing. You can defend it if you want, but ‘gay marriage’ is a direct assault on our culture and traditions by a tiny group of radical deviants. It won’t be long before the incest community starts to organize.


19 posted on 03/22/2013 8:58:26 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: Gene Eric; only1percent; Sans-Culotte

The “gay rights” agenda has one major end goal -

criminalize Christianity.


20 posted on 03/22/2013 8:59:55 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter admits whom he's working for)
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To: Perdogg; SeekAndFind; sickoflibs
I do not consider myself pro-gay. I could care less what my neighbors do in their bedrooms. That does not make me ‘pro-gay’.

If you stood by and watched your child get beat to death by a stranger, would you be complicit? How about a total stranger getting beat to death?

And while we are not talking about the immediate effect of someone losing their lives, we are talking about the death of our culture and the loss of our liberties.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)
21 posted on 03/22/2013 9:05:07 AM PDT by SoConPubbie (Mitt and Obama: They're the same poison, just a different potency)
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To: only1percent
That's because there are very few homosexuals in this country. They're a handful of social misfits. They just make a lot of noise and give a lot of money to pandering politicians.
Because they're are so little of them, should our entire culture change to accommodate them and their perverse, deadly lifestyles? Should our entire culture indoctrinate it's children into this culture of disease? Should we pretend it's a "normal and healthy lifestyle choice" and just look the other way? Really? Are you serious?
Let's just hope this new homo meningitis cleans the swamp (I never thought I'd ever feel like that, but nature will do what it has to do), before the next generation has to deal with the next plague that could affect them, too.
22 posted on 03/22/2013 9:09:53 AM PDT by concerned about politics ("Get thee behind me, Liberal")
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To: Viennacon
It won’t be long before the incest community starts to organize

The far left (funded by NAMBLA) started the move toward pedophilia during the Clinton administration.
I heard on FOX about a college class that's teaching bestiality along with all their other vile acts, too.

23 posted on 03/22/2013 9:17:29 AM PDT by concerned about politics ("Get thee behind me, Liberal")
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To: concerned about politics

Exactly. That was at Yale. Polygamy will be next. It’s already beginning in Netherlands.


24 posted on 03/22/2013 9:24:48 AM PDT by Viennacon
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To: SeekAndFind
And I’d probably still prefer civil unions if we had settled on some arrangement that conferred the economic and legal benefits of traditional marriage without calling it marriage.

This is actually a topic I don't see discussed very much. No one talks about how a civil union isn't worth the paper it's printed on, how it's completely legally inferior to a marriage and can be busted by anyone with a tenuous blood relation. Oh, Nephew Bob has died and his civil union partner is going inherit? Not so fast! Uncle Hildred is going to bust into court, claim blood relation, and bogart the stuff!
25 posted on 03/22/2013 9:53:27 AM PDT by Hildred Castaigne
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To: only1percent; MrB; Gene Eric
READ THIS THREAD. This is the type of BS that goes hand in hand with normalizing homosexuality via marriage, etc.; and in MASSachussetts, no less.
26 posted on 03/22/2013 10:06:04 AM PDT by Sans-Culotte ( Pray for Obama- Psalm 109:8)
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To: SoConPubbie; Perdogg; SeekAndFind; genetic homophobe
RE :”I do not consider myself pro-gay. I could care less what my neighbors do in their bedrooms. That does not make me ‘pro-gay’.”
.......
If you stood by and watched your child get beat to death by a stranger, would you be complicit? How about a total stranger getting beat to death? “

I think I understand what Perdogg was getting at with that: if they want to hurt themselves (worst case) then why should I go out on a limb to stop them???, and very long weak limb these days (weak limb as the rapid and huge change in public opinion on this) That is a valid point.

Its in contrast with the libs who on every other issue like the soda's we drink they want to control us but this particular dangerous sort of sex is a constitutional right, to them.

My issue is this civil rights victim status creep that goes on , like O Connor joining the libs on the court to make same sex sodomy a US a constitutional right. They are a protected victim minority because of their feelings.

Reminds me of one of my favorite freepers from past times name :genetic homophobe

27 posted on 03/22/2013 10:58:29 AM PDT by sickoflibs (O's sequester Apocalypse tour just proved why we need the 2nd amendment more than ever NOW!)
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To: MrB

” The agenda is the destruction of the family resulting in total dependence on the State.

The left looks at 1984 as an instruction manual.”

Exactly.


28 posted on 03/22/2013 12:29:04 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker
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To: sickoflibs; SeekAndFind; stephenjohnbanker; ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas; Gilbo_3; Impy; NFHale; ...

” From what I have seen on gays there is no-one effectively arguing why that lifestyle is bad.
Only one side makes the case “

FACT.


29 posted on 03/22/2013 12:37:16 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker
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To: SoConPubbie

National Review has been taken over by the gaystapo...

Dust off the soles of your feet.


30 posted on 03/22/2013 5:35:32 PM PDT by Sir Francis Dashwood ("Arjuna, why have you have dropped your bow???")
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To: SeekAndFind

GOLDBERG MENTIONS THE NAZIs ???

If it wasn’t for white heterosexual Christians with guns, Jonah would be a lampshade today.


31 posted on 03/22/2013 5:38:26 PM PDT by Sir Francis Dashwood ("Arjuna, why have you have dropped your bow???")
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To: SeekAndFind

Way to screw it up, Jonah Goldberg. Going pro-sodomy.


32 posted on 03/22/2013 7:50:37 PM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: sickoflibs; Perdogg; BillyBoy; fieldmarshaldj; NFHale; stephenjohnbanker
I am considered 3/5ths of a gay.

Wow, you SHOULD do this a living. That was Coutleresque (I mean that as a compliment, she is a good writer even if she's an idiot sometimes).

For most of my childhood there was a gay couple living right next door to me. My dad said they were brothers, when I grew up I realized one was Puerto Rican and the other wasn't. Whatever, they never bothered anyone.

I'm really sick of these activists acting like we want to come into their bedrooms or discotheque bathrooms and knock them out of their lover's arms. Not even with a ten foot pole would I do that! Screw your little gay hearts out just stop calling me a bigot cause I don't support giving you special and brand new legal and social protections, okay?

33 posted on 03/25/2013 12:43:23 AM PDT by Impy (All in favor of Harry Reid meeting Mr. Mayhem?)
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To: Impy; Perdogg; BillyBoy; fieldmarshaldj; NFHale; stephenjohnbanker
RE :”I'm really sick of these activists acting like we want to come into their bedrooms or discotheque bathrooms and knock them out of their lover's arms. Not even with a ten foot pole would I do that! Screw your little gay hearts out just stop calling me a bigot cause I don't support giving you special and brand new legal and social protections, okay?”

State sanctioned, licenced and rewarded sodomy. That is what they demand and it looks like they have convinced too many people its a constitutional right.

I saw Ralf Reed, Gary Bauer and Tony Perkins on the three Sunday shows trying to make the contrary case, but they were on their own and they came off a bit weak I guess to not offend anyone.

Contrast with Wayne LaPierre on NBC who came out swinging and made Bloomy the poster-boy of nanny state.

Rand Paul was on FNS and I get the impression that he is for same-sex marriage but is not ready to state it clearly, unlike Nicole Wallace from Bush administration who is now a outspoken 'marriage equality' avdocate. Rand was dancing with his words again like with illegal immigration.

34 posted on 03/25/2013 4:53:35 AM PDT by sickoflibs (To GOP : Any path to US citizenship IS putting them ahead in line. Stop lying about your position.)
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To: sickoflibs; BillyBoy; AuH2ORepublican; fieldmarshaldj
I saw Ralf Reed, Gary Bauer and Tony Perkins on the three Sunday shows trying to make the contrary case, but they were on their own and they came off a bit weak I guess to not offend anyone.

As you've mentioned we have no voice on this issue. It's no wonder we've losing. We've allowed the other side to completely control the conversation. Guns is the one issue where we haven't and surprise surprise, the public is on our side.

As the useful idiot Goldberg points out in the article civil unions is now a conservative fall back position, just like keeping don't ask don't tell became the Republican position, suddenly the GOP was championing what the right strongly opposed in the early 90's because the ground has shifted under us while we've done nothing. We need a message and it can't be bible quotes.

35 posted on 03/25/2013 10:54:01 PM PDT by Impy (All in favor of Harry Reid meeting Mr. Mayhem?)
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To: Impy; sickoflibs

” As the useful idiot Goldberg points out in the article civil unions is now a conservative fall back position, just like keeping don’t ask don’t tell became the Republican position, suddenly the GOP was championing what the right strongly opposed in the early 90’s because the ground has shifted under us while we’ve done nothing. “

Yep. our party has done nothing on this cause. Scared, as usual.


36 posted on 03/27/2013 11:14:58 AM PDT by stephenjohnbanker
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