A Message From the Boy Scouts of America [Just Got Their Pathetic Fundraising Email]

I agree that Scoutmasters are a tough breed.

I would be very interested to know what you intend to do?

Exclude an openly homosexual Scout and get sued?

Haze them out of the Troop and get sued?

Accept them into the Troop and be proud of how nicely the press their uniforms?

The scouts have had a program called YPT. Youth protection training. It is required of all adult leaders.
I guess all that has been thrown out the window.

I was a life scout, my son made eagle, but if I had another son who was in process, I would pull him out now.

I will send a letter to the bsa leadership along with my uniforms expressing my disgust.

This is just not acceptable in any way.

Once again, you try your deflection and try to make this about me.

I have already told you everything you need to know about me, and you have made it clear that you have no real defense of the Roman Catholic organization, other than what you can glean from your catechisms.

Worthless drivel is worthless drivel, and your posts excel in the matter!

The Church claims perfection for Church doctrine

The only problem with that statement is that too many of your organization's doctrines are extra-Biblical and assume that some man in fancy clothing can make pronouncements from God (even when they fly in the face of some previous office-holder's pronouncements)!

Hahahahahahahahahaaaa...

You can assume all you wish, but you cannot change the truth! Your organization is just another "whited sepulcher" (Matthew 23:27)!

I wonder if they’re planning a merger of the Boy Scouts with the Girl Scouts. It is delusional for “modern” folks to try to obscure or obliterate important sexual differences and rules..

“I have already told you everything you need to know about me”

Indeed you have. That you support contraception and pre marital sex. Good to know!

“The only problem with that statement is that too many of your organization’s doctrines are extra-Biblical”

My organization? Who founded the Catholic church? and When?

Indeed you have.

Hahahahahahahaaaaa

Deflection is your only tool, isn't it? You must have learned well from Obama and his mentor's Cloward and Piven. You all follow the same course. When confronted with truth, you try and make it about the accuser or the facts presented. Nothing in your responses has made a proper answer in defense of the truths I presented. It's obvious you have no answer.

In everything, I use Scripture as my basis for my responses. In yours, you fall back on a man-made organization that CLAIMS to be ordained of God. It instead reveals no resemblance to Christ's body.

The church is not only universal, it is found commonly in only one place. That is in the hearts and souls of believers, not in some halls of splendor, with elegantly gowned pretenders.

I am sorry if you can't handle the truth, but if you truly want answers, ask for the Holy Spirit to guide you! If you don't beleive me, just read what Jesus says about it!

John 16: ... 12 “I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you.”

Jesus made no reference to your man-made falsity!

“Deflection is your only tool, isn’t it?”

These aren’t exactly controversial issues. Christians faithful to Christ believe that pre marital sex is wrong. You claim to be a Christian faithful to Christ and yet you won’t answer that direct question.

“Nothing in your responses has made a proper answer”

Does the opinion of one individual claiming to be Catholic stand for the opinion of the Catholic church as a whole? Yes or no?

If no, then my point is made here. What matters is what the Church teaches. Many people call themselves Catholic yet do not adhere to what the Church teaches. Many people call themselves protestants and do the same.

“I use Scripture as my basis for my responses.”

Fine then. Which bible do you regard as authoritative?

“you fall back on a man-made organization”

Then when did it form and who formed it? You say it’s man-made. Where’s the evidence for this?

“The church is not only universal, it is found commonly in only one place. That is in the hearts and souls of believers”

Where is this statement found in scripture?

“Jesus made no reference to your man-made falsity!”

Oh, then why does he say this:

“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”

Matthew 16:18.

“And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.”

In a proper exegetical consideration of that Scripture portion, it is found that nothing demonstrates that the basis for a pope exists as the presumptuous leader on earth! Jesus is the foundational Rock for the Church, and Peter was just an another disciple (but one who denied Christ!). Paul needed to correct Peter in his desire to put works into the salvation equation, and on his exclusivity (Galatians 2:11-21). That portion reveals the falsity of your organization's structure.

Once again, it is the presumptuous nature of the Roman Catholic ~~Church~~ organization that propels such a falsity. It totally assumes ownership of one part of that single line of Scripture and attempts to build on it. BUT, you already have been given that proper exegetical analysis and chose to ignore or ridicule it.

Just as your organization tries to elevate Mary into an equal to Christ, you give credence to the basic facts that little can be found within your catechisms that resemble what Christ taught, and indeed reclassifies simple faith into works necessary for salvation (as well as the RC membership requirement!).

Paul clarifies the difference in writing to those at Rome in the first Century...

Romans 1: 14 I am obligated both to Greeks and non-Greeks, both to the wise and the foolish. 15 That is why I am so eager to preach the gospel also to you who are in Rome.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

If Rome had been the origin and location of your organization, there should have been little need for the Gospel, the "good news" of Christ to be taught to them! Indeed, it was because of the spiritual ignorance that Paul sent such an address to such as were there.

Try reading Paul's entire letter to that group. Maybe you will find Christ in your heart, and not in some symbolic edifice for royalty! Of course, first, you need to ask the Hoy Spirit for His guidance... not some fallible priest!

Romans 1:25 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator ...

“In a proper exegetical consideration of that Scripture portion, it is found that nothing demonstrates that the basis for a pope exists as the presumptuous leader on earth!”

That wasn’t your argument. You said that Christ never established anything tangible and that the Church was simply the invisible body of believers. This is not so. Examining scripture demonstrates that yes, in fact Christ did establish a visible church with himself as head.

Furthermore, Ephesians establishes that Christ himself is the head, while the Church is his bride. There’s only one bride here, not two brides. Christ is not a polygamist.

“Jesus is the foundational Rock for the Church, and Peter was just an another disciple”

Well, let’s examine Matthew 16 again. I gave you verse 18. Here are verses 15 through to 17.

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”

Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven.”

Just another disciple! Not so. Not according to what Christ and Matthew teaches. Why did Christ put him at the head and gave Peter the authority to forgive sins? Because he saw the Truth, that Christ was the son of the living God.

“That portion reveals the falsity of your organization’s structure.”

So, you affirm then that Peter was not just an ordinary disciple - if he was in fact held responsible as the leader of the Apostles and responsible for the governance of the Church.

It also reveals a truth - that the Catholic church does date to St. Peter’s time. You’ve affirmed continuity with the Apostles and affirmed that St. Peter was in fact the first Bishop of Rome.

“Once again, it is the presumptuous nature of the Roman Catholic Church organization that propels such a falsity.”

It’s not a falsity at all. You yourself have just affirmed that there is historical continuity from Peter to Francis.

“It totally assumes ownership of one part of that single line of Scripture”

Are you asserting then that you do not believe one line of scripture is sufficient evidence of Christ’s teachings? Is this not contrary to Sola Scriptura?

“you already have been given that proper exegetical analysis”

Where would I find such analysis?

“Just as your organization tries to elevate Mary into an equal to Christ”

And precisely where do we do so? Evidence please!

“reclassifies simple faith into works necessary for salvation”

Since you are familiar with our Catechism, perhaps you can show for me where you find that we teach that works is necessary for salvation.

132 Like I said previously, one bishop’s opinion is just that - his opinion. Not the opinion of the Church as a whole. ...

Not just 1 bishop, but the bishop in the U.S. who has the authority over the church's National Catholic Committee on Scouting. And the lay chairman of that said same committee has been non-committal also. Don't you find it interesting that letter from Scouts for Equality to Cardinal Dolan was forwarded to the Bishop of Charleston for him to handle. I understand that is the proper administrative channel. But still, I had hoped for more of a declarative position. And I realize that it may still come once the church hierarchy realizes that the homosexualists are continuing with the push to approve open homosexual adult leaders.

... I find it interesting that you seem more interested in attacking the Catholic church and making sure we know that Catholics are the enemy.

Your thin skin is showing. I am not attacking, just pointing out what has transpired. Most of the Christian denominations in the U.S. have not covered themselves with honor in this affair. The 6 denominations which charter units with the most scouts have been meek to MIA.

1. LDS - I, and others have chronicled over the last 4 days the sad chain of events in that denomination which led to their acceptance of the BSA membership rule change.

2. UMC - Same thing. They're Scouting committee, the United Methodist Men, has said essentially the same thing as the LDS and RCC, i.e., we can live with it. That denomination may well be heading to schism over the issue of homosexuality.

3. RCC - Not much else to add except to wonder aloud whether the church is still admitting celibate homosexuals into seminary or not. I read an RCC account from Poland last year where they were very critical of the Jesuit colleges/universities in the U.S. for this very reason. I have no idea what is happening on the ground.

4. Lutheran - Includes several flavors of Lutherans. The largest, ELCA, ordains homosexual pastors and is probably not that far from approving marriage rites for homosexuals. I haven't seen a statement from the ELCA about the BSA rule, yet. The other 2 smaller flavors, LC-Missouri Synod and the LC-Wisconsin Synod do not ordain homosexual pastors. The LC-MS has been vocal against BSA's decision.

5. Presbyterian - Also includes several flavors. The largest, PC-USA, ordains homosexual pastors and is probably not that far from approving homosexual marriage rites. I haven't seen a statement from the PC-USA about the BSA decision, yet. Smaller sects, like the PCA, have come out strongly against BSA's decision.

6. Baptists - Also includes several flavors. The largest, the Southern Baptist Convention, has been the most vocal of all Christian denominations in the U.S. against the BSA since 1/28/2013.

“Not just 1 bishop, but the bishop in the U.S. who has the authority over the church’s National Catholic Committee on Scouting.”

This issue is much larger than just him. He is not going to be making the final decision here especially not when it concerns the relationship between scouting and the Catholic church around the world. Neither scouting nor the Catholic church is a national body. The national body actually have very little say when the matter concerns fundamental Catholic doctrine.

“Don’t you find it interesting”

Nope.

“I understand that is the proper administrative channel.”

Well, as we are roundly criticized for our bureaucracy and administration we do have ways of doing things like this. This will go all the way up to Francis. I expect that the Church will spend time going over the options from here on and to see what, if anything can be done to ensure:

1, that the essential Catholic doctrine that homosexuality is sinful is not compromised.
2, that the Catholic boys themselves are not compromised by this association.

Remember, the Catholic church has very little institutional connection with the organization of the Boy Scouts. Cutting the Boy scouts for us isn’t really going to impact the organization as a whole and will have a much smaller effect than it will in other denominations. Once again - something like this has much broader effects than just the USCCB - so this decision isn’t going to stay there.

“But still, I had hoped for more of a declarative position. And I realize that it may still come once the church hierarchy realizes that the homosexualists are continuing with the push to approve open homosexual adult leaders.”

Give it time.

“Most of the Christian denominations in the U.S. have not covered themselves with honor in this affair.”

Most of the formerly Christian denominations have already capitulated on this issue in their pulpit. They have been leading the charge not the other way around.

“The 6 denominations which charter units with the most scouts have been meek to MIA.”

Yes, this hasn’t gone unnoticed either. I don’t believe we can regard the Mormons as reliable allies (if they ever were reliable allies with us).

“1. LDS - I, and others have chronicled over the last 4 days the sad chain of events in that denomination which led to their acceptance of the BSA membership rule change.”

Disappointing. But - it’s really the Mitt Romney direction. Sad, but not compromising to Christian faith or doctrine as the Mormons are most certainly not our brothers and sisters as our protestant friends are.

“2. UMC - Same thing. They’re Scouting committee, the United Methodist Men, has said essentially the same thing as the LDS and RCC, i.e., we can live with it. That denomination may well be heading to schism over the issue of homosexuality.”

It’s already there in the UMC - there’s been an active push to have gay pastors recognized, and to do gay marriages.

“3. RCC - Not much else to add except to wonder aloud whether the church is still admitting celibate homosexuals into seminary or not.”

My experience has been just the opposite that they will not ordain gay men.

“I read an RCC account from Poland last year where they were very critical of the Jesuit colleges/universities in the U.S. for this very reason. I have no idea what is happening on the ground.”

Well, it’s been a problem. I have heard plenty of criticism from all fronts over the USCCB. They’ve been taking plenty of fire and the recent events from Francis is really a rebuke to the USCCB. Francis had to deal with plenty of American nonsense in Argentina so he knows the players and what they are after.

Once again - the tail does not wag the dog. The USCCB may complain, but they don’t get to make this decision.

“4. Lutheran - Includes several flavors of Lutherans. The largest, ELCA, ordains homosexual pastors and is probably not that far from approving marriage rites for homosexuals. I haven’t seen a statement from the ELCA about the BSA rule, yet. The other 2 smaller flavors, LC-Missouri Synod and the LC-Wisconsin Synod do not ordain homosexual pastors. The LC-MS has been vocal against BSA’s decision.”

Yes, the LC and Missouri synod have been good friends to us on this issue. When friends are in short supply - we must hold fast to those who will stand with us.

5. Presbyterian - Also includes several flavors. The largest, PC-USA, ordains homosexual pastors and is probably not that far from approving homosexual marriage rites. I haven’t seen a statement from the PC-USA about the BSA decision, yet. Smaller sects, like the PCA, have come out strongly against BSA’s decision.

6. Baptists - Also includes several flavors. The largest, the Southern Baptist Convention, has been the most vocal of all Christian denominations in the U.S. against the BSA since 1/28/2013.

What is effectually conveyed speaks louder than what is officially said, and manifests what is really being taught. As with excommunication, while TRCs often state liberal RCs have excommunicated themselves, Rome typically treats know ones as members in life and in death, and RC teaching on homosexuality has been manifested in how they have and do deal with the problem. And it has been and is a significant one.

50 percent of Protestants affirmed gambling was a sin, versus 15 percent of Catholics; that getting drunk was a sin: 63 percent of Protestants, 28 percent of Catholics; gossip: 70 percent to 45 percent: homosexual activity or sex: 72 percent to 42 percent. Ellison Research, March 11, 2008 http://ellisonresearch.com/releases/20080311.htm http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080312/study-behaviors-americans-consider-sinful.htm
- 40% Roman Catholics vs. 41% Non-R.C. see abortion as "morally acceptable"; Sex between unmarried couples: 67% vs. 57%; Baby out of wedlock: 61% vs. 52%; Homosexual relations: 54% vs. 45%; Gambling: 72% vs. 59% http://www.gallup.com/poll/117154/Catholics-Similar-Mainstream-Abortion-Stem-Cells.aspx
- In a 2010 LifeWay Research survey 77 percent of American Protestant pastors (57% of mainline versus 87% evangelical) strongly disagree with same-sex marriage, with 6% percent somewhat disagreeing, and 5% being somewhat in agreement and 10 percent strongly agreeing. (5% of evangelical).
- Only 3% of evangelical pastors (versus 11% mainline) somewhat agree that there is nothing wrong with homosexual marriage.
- 11% of evangelical pastors (versus 30% mainline) somewhat agree that homosexual civil unions are acceptable, with 67% of the former and 38% of the latter strongly disagreeing with homosexual civil unions. October 2010 LifeWay Research survey of 1,000 randomly selected Protestant pastors. http://www.lifeway.com/ArticleView?storeId=10054&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&article=LifeWay-Research-protestant-pastors-oppose-homosexual-marriage
- A 2002 nationwide poll of 1,854 priests in the United States and Puerto Rico reported that 30% of Roman Catholic priests described themselves as Liberal, 28% as Conservative, and 37% as Moderate in their Religious ideology. 53 percent responded that they thought it always was a sin for unmarried people to have sexual relations; 32 percent that is often was, and 9 percent seldom/never. However, nearly four in 10 younger priests in 2002 described themselves as conservative, and were more likely to regard as "always a sin" such acts as premarital sex, abortion, artificial birth control, homosexual relations, etc., and three-fourths said they were more religiously orthodox than their older counterparts. Los Angeles Times (extensive) nationwide survey (2002). http://www.bishop-accountability.org/resources/resource-files/reports/LAT-Priest-Survey.pdf http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_2_39/ai_94129129/pg_2
- The survey also found that 80% of Roman Catholic priests referred to themselves as “mostly” heterosexual in orientation, with 67% being exclusively heterosexual, 8% leaning toward heterosexual, 5% completely in the middle, and 6% leaning toward homosexual and 9% saying they are homosexual, for a combined figure of 15% on the homosexual class. Among younger priests (those ordained for 20 years or less) the figure was 23%. ^
- One-third of surveyed priests said they “do not waver” from their vow of celibacy, while 47% described celibacy as “an ongoing journey” and 14% said they “do not always succeed in following” it. 2% said celibacy is not relevant to their priesthood and they do not observe it. not celibate. ^
  44 percent of the priests said "definitely" a homosexual subculture'--defined as a `definite group of persons that has its own friendships, social gatherings and vocabulary'--exists in their diocese or religious order. ^
- After examining the official web sites of 244 Catholic universities and colleges in America, the TFP Student Action found that 107 – or 43% have pro-homosexual clubs. TFP Student Action Dec. 6. 2011; studentaction.org/get-involved/online-petitions/pro-homosexual-clubs-at-107-catholic-colleges/print.html
- 39 percent of Roman Catholics and 79 percent of born-again, evangelical or fundamentalist American Christians affirm that homosexual behavior is sinful. LifeWay (SBC) Research study, released Wednesday. 2008 LifeWay Research study. http://www.christianpost.com/article/20080606/survey-americans-divided-on-homosexuality-as-sin.htm
- 79 percent of American Jews, 58 percent of Catholics and 56 percent of mainline Protestants favor acceptance of homosexuality, versus 39 percent of members of historically black churches, 27 percent of Muslims and 26 percent of the evangelical Protestants. U.S. U.S. Religious landscape survey; Copyright © 2008 The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. http://religions.pewforum.org/comparisons#
- 56% of Catholics overall (and 46% of the general public) believe that sexual relations between two adults of the same gender is not a sin, while 39%. of Catholics say homosexual behavior is morally wrong, (versus 76% of white evangelicals and 66% of black Protestants, and 40% of Mainline Protestants). 41% of Catholics do not consider homosexual behavior to be a moral issue. (Pew Research Center, Religion & Politics Survey, 2009; PRRI/RNS Religion News Survey, October 2010; http://publicreligion.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Catholics-and-LGBT-Issues-Survey-Report.pdf)
- Catholics testify [2010] to showing more support (in numbers) for legal recognitions of same-sex relationships than members of any other Christian tradition, and Americans overall. Almost three-quarters of Catholics favor either allowing gay and lesbian people to marry or allowing them to form civil unions (43% and 31% respectively). Only 22% of Catholics said there should be no legal recognition of a gay couple’s relationship. (PRRI, Pre--election American Values Survey, 9/2010; http://publicreligion.org/site/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Catholics-and-LGBT-Issues-Survey-Report.pdf.)
- This 2010 survey of more than 3,000 adults found that 41% of White American Catholics, 45% of Latino Catholics (versus 16 percent of White evangelical Christians, and 23% of Black Protestants) supported the rights of same-sex couples to marry, and 36% (22% of Latino Catholics) supported civil unions (versus 24% of White evangelicals, and 25% of Black Protestants). Among the general public the rates were 37 and 27 percent.
- 69% of Catholics disagree that homosexual orientation can be changed, versus 23% who believe that they can change. ^
- 19% of White Catholics, 30% of Latino Catholics, 58% of White evangelicals, 52% of Black Protestants and 29% of White Mainline Protestants oppose any legal recognition of homosexual marriage. ^
- 60% of Catholics overall, and 53% of the general public favor allowing homosexual couples to adopt children. ^
- 73% of Catholics favor laws that would protect gay and lesbian people against discrimination in the workplace, and 63% favor allowing homosexuals to serve openly in the military. For the general public the figures are 68% and 58% respectively. ^
- 49% of Catholics and 45% of the general public agree that homosexuals should be eligible for ordination with no special requirements. ^
- Among Catholics who attend services regularly (weekly or more), 31% say there should be no legal recognition for homosexual relationships (marriage or civil unions), with 26% favoring allowing gay and lesbian people to marry, versus 43% of Catholics who attend once or twice a month, and 59% of Catholics who attend a few times a year or less favoring allowance of homosexual marriage. ^
- 27% of Catholics who attend church services regularly say their clergy speak about the issue of homosexuality, with 63% of this group saying the messages they hear are negative. ^
- 48% of white evangelical Protestants oppose letting homosexuals serve openly in the military, with 34% supporting this proposal, versus 63% of Catholics (66% of white) supporting and 23% opposing. Pew forum, November 29, 2010, http://pewforum.org/uploadedFiles/Topics/Issues/Gay_Marriage_and_Homosexuality/gays%20in%20military%20full%20report.pdf
Reviews: The Rite of Sodomy Homosexuality and the Roman Catholic Church

When are you going to do something about the snake-handlers? Are they outliers on the spectrum of Protestantism?

Do you see my point?

That wasn’t your argument.

You are absolutely correct with that statement, except for the fact that you did not address anything I said. You simply went back to your catechismal teachings and demonstrated once again that you have no valid argument. Nothing in your screed establishes a Roman Catholic hierarchy, and nothing in my posts said Christ did not establish His church. I said it was not contained in your temples of doom (whited sepulchers)!

In case you did not already know, God is a Spirit!

John 4: 21 ...Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”...

Romans 8: 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.

12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.

1 Corinthians 1: ... 26 For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,29 so that no man may boast before God.30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,31 so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”

Do you see my point?

Actually, FRiend, you make no point! You simply try to divert/deflect attention like others here on this thread in response to Biblical Truths! For reference, see post #152!

--- In case you did not already know, God is a Spirit! ----

Really?! Tell us more!

“In case you did not already know, God is a Spirit!”

So he’s not a man then?

“I would be very interested to know what you intend to do?
Exclude an openly homosexual Scout and get sued?
Haze them out of the Troop and get sued?”

Simple, just say no. The BSA has changed a policy, but they do not own my troop. SCOTUS has already stated that I have the freedom to associate with whomever I please. So please tell me who would have the standing to sue. The most the BSA could do is raise some hell or pull my charter.