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Former Mexican official: Immigrants will become Mexico’s burden if US doesn’t take more
The Daily Caller ^ | July 1, 2013 | Elizabeth Dorton

Posted on 07/02/2013 1:28:45 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet

A former Mexican cabinet member says the U.S. should accept more low-skill migrants from Central America, because otherwise the migrants would stay in Mexico.

If they can’t get into the United States, “they’re going to stay in Mexico, creating a burden for us that we have to carry,” Jorge Castañeda said on “Al Punto,” a Spanish-language show on Univision.

“I think Mexico should raise its voice much more clearly and forcefully to say that if the United States wants a wall, it needs to have more doors in this wall, with more bells at these doors so that Mexicans and Central Americans can enter the United States with papers,” he said, as translated.

He criticized the items in the bill meant to address border security, as well as concern to the number of temporary work visas the bill will create, which he believes to be too small.

The Center for Immigration Studies reports that Castañeda criticized the Mexican government for being too passive when discussing the bill with the United States, out of respect for not becoming involved in foreign affairs.....

(Excerpt) Read more at dailycaller.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: amnesty; immigration; mexicans; mexico
Give them an inch....
1 posted on 07/02/2013 1:28:45 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Have the mexican people pay their fair share and help their own.


2 posted on 07/02/2013 1:30:19 PM PDT by edcoil ("The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek." Joseph Campbell)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

*sniff sniff*


3 posted on 07/02/2013 1:31:28 PM PDT by Doogle (USAF.68-73..8th TFW Ubon Thailand..never store a threat you should have eliminated))
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

The gall of Mexican government clowns is staggering! How about us sending millions of your poor back to Mexico? We don’t like having them any more than you do because we have the Catholic Church and the Democrat party signing them up for every freebie they can grab.


4 posted on 07/02/2013 1:32:08 PM PDT by txrefugee
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Decades ago my solution to the millions of Mexican refugees fleeing life in Mexico, was that we give each captured illegal a gun and ammunition, and return them to Mexico.

I figured that Mexico would do something to control their people if we did that.


5 posted on 07/02/2013 1:33:39 PM PDT by ansel12 (Sodom and Gomorrah, flush with libertarians and liberals, short on social conservatives.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
A former Mexican cabinet member says the U.S. should accept more low-skill migrants from Central America, because otherwise the migrants would stay in Mexico.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Exactly! The free market is a wonderful thing, but only when practiced under the Rule of Law.

6 posted on 07/02/2013 1:33:57 PM PDT by Eccl 10:2 (Prov 3:5 --- "Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding")
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Mexican politicians...the Mexican people...exporting their 200 year long utter failure,utter collapse.


7 posted on 07/02/2013 1:34:24 PM PDT by Gay State Conservative (The Civil Servants Are No Longer Servants...Or Civil.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
... creating a burden for us ...

So they're a burden if in Mexico. What are they in US then?
I love it when libs accidentally blurt out the truth.
Too bad they don't listen, even to themselves.

8 posted on 07/02/2013 1:35:11 PM PDT by BitWielder1 (Corporate Profits are better than Government Waste)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Better to have them staying in Mexico that to have them coming here draining our social safety net.


9 posted on 07/02/2013 1:35:18 PM PDT by puppypusher (The World is going to the dogs.)
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To: puppypusher

bttt


10 posted on 07/02/2013 1:36:53 PM PDT by ConservativeMan55
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Like I've said before.

There's one thing everyone can agree upon.

MEXICO SUCKS !!

11 posted on 07/02/2013 1:38:02 PM PDT by TexasCajun (Creepy-Ass Cracker)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I though the meme was that they were going to be our ticket to prosperity.


12 posted on 07/02/2013 1:40:49 PM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Wall-E-Like Farming Robots Could Replace Undocumented Workers and Save the US Billions

Gizmoto.com ^ | Andrew Tarantola

Posted on Friday, June 28, 2013 9:11:13 AM by KeyLargo

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/3036726/posts


13 posted on 07/02/2013 1:42:54 PM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Basically, the Mexican government views their own people as third world trash to be ejected and never seen again. If the “trash” ends up back in Mexico, their government clearly views this as an outrage. Sad, sad stste of affairs.


14 posted on 07/02/2013 1:44:13 PM PDT by Prole
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
In July 2003, then-congressman Tom Tancredo (R-Colorado)gave Insight Magazine the following account of his conversation in Mexico with Juan Hernandez, head of the newly created Ministry of Mexicans Living in the United States. According to Mr. Tancredo:

“I asked about the purpose of the government agency he heads, since I had never heard of such a thing. He said its purpose is to increase the flow of Mexican nationals to the United States. I asked, ‘Why?’

"’It serves Mexico's needs,’ he said, and ticked off a list of such things as remittances to Mexico of $10 billion a year, which is 30 percent of the Mexican GDP [gross domestic product]. It provides employment for an exploding population, it alleviates social instability due to rising unemployment and it provides training for Mexicans, ultimately repatriating those skills back to Mexico.

“I responded to his final aim - repatriation of trained and skilled Mexicans back into Mexico - and asked, ‘Then your government would oppose amnesty for the illegal Mexicans in the United States?’

“He cried, ‘Oh no! We support amnesty totally. . . . by populating the United States with millions of Hispanics who are tied economically, politically and linguistically to Mexico, we are able to exert enormous influence and pressure on U.S. policy and its dealings with Mexico.’

"President Vicente Fox believes the U.S. border is a figment of the imagination. In fact, Fox and/or members of his government stated at one point that the borders of Mexico extend much farther north than currently drawn on the map.”

15 posted on 07/02/2013 1:44:49 PM PDT by Maceman (Just say "NO" to tyranny.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Screw them, we should simply adopt mexico’as immigration policy with the exception of not screwing over canada....


16 posted on 07/02/2013 1:54:43 PM PDT by GraceG
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Mexico demands to export its poverty to the US!


17 posted on 07/02/2013 1:55:40 PM PDT by headstamp 2 (What would Scooby do?)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Is this satire?


18 posted on 07/02/2013 1:56:37 PM PDT by smalltownslick
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To: Maceman

In July 2003, then-congressman Tom Tancredo (R-Colorado)gave Insight Magazine the following account of his conversation in Mexico with Juan Hernandez, head of the newly created Ministry of Mexicans Living in the United States. According to Mr. Tancredo:

I wish someday this country would wake up and elect someone like Tancredo as president....

Heck I would settle with Tanmcredo as govenor of Colorado.


19 posted on 07/02/2013 1:56:38 PM PDT by GraceG
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

So Mexico is concerned with ALL of the people flowing in to Mexico from Central America? If I remember Geography, they have a pretty small border.....and not the most friendly of immigration laws....


20 posted on 07/02/2013 1:57:49 PM PDT by Eagle of Liberty (Be the Enemy Within the Enemy Within...)
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To: TexasCajun
MEXICO SUCKS !!

And more's the pity. Because Mexico is actually endowed with a vast array of natural resources, only some of which are put to use, while most of that natural wealth is locked up in a feudal system of law and by an apparently hidebound class system that chooses to NOT emulate the much more free-wheeling nature of capitalism that built its northern neighbor. There is a sense of privilege and entitlement of the wealthy that cannot or will not see the greater benefit of encouraging initiative and innovation among its more impoverished citizens, and insist on keeping restrictive customs and a laughable (or it would be, if the consequences were not so drastic) code of "justice".

The eternal curse that has befallen Mexico - so far from God, and so near to the United States.

21 posted on 07/02/2013 1:58:53 PM PDT by alloysteel (Unattended children will be given a Red Bull and a free Kazoo. Reminds me of Congress...)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

We should adopt as many peasants as their failed socialist policies can create.

Then we should become socialist, so we don’t make them look bad.


22 posted on 07/02/2013 1:59:40 PM PDT by LucianOfSamasota (Tanstaafl - its not just for breakfast anymore...)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

I commend the man for his honesty. Mexico is exporting the dregs of their society to us and he admits it.


23 posted on 07/02/2013 2:00:10 PM PDT by forgotten man
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To: sickoflibs; NYer; stephenjohnbanker; Gilbo_3; Impy; NFHale; BillyBoy; DoughtyOne
Former Mexican official: Immigrants will become Mexico’s burden if US doesn’t take more

Mexico has hemorrhoids and wants to make sure they get fully transplanted to our backside.

“I think Mexico should raise its voice much more clearly and forcefully to say that if the United States wants a wall, it needs to have more doors in this wall, with more bells at these doors so that Mexicans and Central Americans can enter the United States with papers,” he said, as translated.

Don't worry Jorge, both US political parties are working for Mexico.

24 posted on 07/02/2013 2:01:19 PM PDT by ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas (Fool me once, shame on you -- twice, shame on me -- 100 times, it's U. S. immigration policy.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

We have to let them in because otherwise they’ll stay in Mexico? Is this for real?


25 posted on 07/02/2013 2:01:47 PM PDT by Sender (It's never too late to be what you might have been.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Mexico: Central America Immigration Drops 70 Percent

MEXICO CITY — The number of Central American migrants crossing Mexico to reach the United States has dropped almost 70 percent over the last five years, the Mexican government said Tuesday.

Immigration Commissioner Salvador Beltran del Rio said the estimate is based on the decline in the number of Central Americans detained for being in Mexico without proper documents. He said there were 433,000 such detentions in 2005 and 140,000 last year.

The downward trend has continued in the first eight months of 2011, added Beltran, who initially revealed the numbers during a Monday conference on migrant issues. Mexico's government released his comments Tuesday.

Beltran said Central Americans crossing Mexico are facing increased risks of extortion, kidnapping and violence because organized crime has moved into migrant trafficking.

In one of the worst attacks, 72 migrants were slaughtered in the northern border state of Tamaulipas by a cell of the Zetas drug cartel in August 2010. Most were Central Americans.

The kidnapping of Central Migrants has been reported for years by migrant rights activists in Mexico.

Beltran said a survey found that most Central Americans who enter Mexico stay less than a month and that six of out every 10 migrants pay a smuggler to sneak across cross into the United States.

Rodolfo Casillas, a professor and Central American migration expert at the Latin American School of Social Sciences in Mexico, disagreed with the figures, arguing that the government is wrong about the flow of migrants.

"What's dropping is the number of people being detained by immigration agents, which is different from the Central American migration flow that goes through Mexico," Casillas said.

He said the number of detentions has been falling because former immigration commissioner Cecilia Romero stopped immigration agents from raiding cargo trains heading north, which is main mode of transportation for Central Americans.

During Romero's 2006-10 tenure, she also ordered that only immigration agents and federal police be allowed to detain migrants after complaints of human rights violations against local and state police officers and soldiers, Casillas said.

"What is worrisome is that the (current) commissioner ... is not being informed correctly by his analysts," Casillas said.

Mexican migration to the United States has also fallen sharply the last five years. Tough economic conditions in the United States and the costs and dangers of crossing the border have deterred migrants, experts say.

Mexico lost about 0.09 percent of its population of 112.7 million people to migration as reflected in quarterly surveys carried out between March 2010 and March 2011 by the National Statistics Institute and released in August.

That was 83 percent lower than the outflow of 0.53 percent of the population in 2006 and early 2007, near the end of Mexico's migration boom.

The most recent national census in 2010 said migration had fallen to about one-third of the peak of about 450,000 Mexicans leaving each year from 2000 through 2005.

Other demographic trends have influenced migration levels. Mexico's population growth has steadily slowed in recent decades, cooling to an increase of about 1.4 percent in 2010 from a peak of about 3.4 percent annually in the 1960s.

26 posted on 07/02/2013 2:03:46 PM PDT by Eagle of Liberty (Be the Enemy Within the Enemy Within...)
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To: ding_dong_daddy_from_dumas; sickoflibs; NYer; stephenjohnbanker; Gilbo_3; Impy; NFHale; BillyBoy; ..

” Don’t worry Jorge, both US political parties are working for Mexico. “

W and Jeb seem hell bent to destroy America, just as willfully as Reid ,Pelosi, and Schumer. I see no distinction whatsoever.


27 posted on 07/02/2013 2:07:43 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (The RINO/amnesty argument goes like this: 1) If we pander to Hispanics, we will save the GOP, at le)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Hey Mexico, we don't need your floor sweepers and burger flippers,
nor do we want to assimilate 1/3 of your illiterate population!
28 posted on 07/02/2013 2:13:58 PM PDT by MaxMax (If you're not pissed off, you're not paying attention)
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To: stephenjohnbanker

Nor do I...


29 posted on 07/02/2013 2:15:26 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (Breaking News: Hillary not running in 2016. Brain tumor found during recent colonoscopy...)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

THE QUESTION IS SENATORS HOW COULD YOU PASS A 1200 PAGE BILL YOU HAVEN’T READ... THAT HAS A FINE OF $5000 FOR ANY EMPLOYER WHO HIRES A CITIZEN OVER AN ILLEGAL ...WHY ARE YOU SO SET ON IMPORTING LOW WAGE LABORERS MAINLY FROM ONE COUNTRY WHICH TAKE UP JOBS OUR YOUTH AND ESPECIALLY BLACKS COULD BE PERFORMING ?

THAT LEGISLATION SHOULD BE BLUE SLIPPED BY THE HOUSE AND NO OTHER LEGISLATION OFFERED BECAUSE THE SENATE BILL CAN BE AMENDED TO REMOVE THE CONSTITUTIONAL OBJECTION

KNOWING THIS HOW CAN YOU HOUSE MEMBERS PASS ANY KIND OF LEGISLATION THAT MAY HAVE THAT AND AN UNSECURED BORDER COMMING OUT OF “CONFERENCE”....???

FR’s ; are urged to visit their respective Congressional Representatives and let them know their feelings

WHEN IT COMES TO AMNESTY

THIS IS THE MEXICAN PART NO ONE DARES MENTION

If you agree with the above and the following please don’t let it lay here in FR-land. Pass it on to to your favorite talk show host and to your US legislators. PUSH THE HASTERT RULE.

ONE NATIONALITY AMNESTY SKEWS QUOTAS. HURTS OTHERS FROM SOUTH AMERICA, AND SKILLED LABOR QUOTAS FROM OTHER NATIONS ...WORSE YET OFFERING AMNESTY FOR NATIONALS FROM A COUNTRY THAT HAS CLAIMS ON OUR NATIONAL TERRITORY THAT COULD AND HAS TURNED INTO PROBLEMS FOR BORDER STATES CLAIMED BY MEXICO .

In that May 3rd speech Obama gave before the Mexican Anthropological Museum in which he blamed America for the violence in Mexico I believe he went even futhur. There’s a inference but never referenced by name to the Gasden purchase and border settlements US made with Mexico where Obama hinted he seems to side with the Mexican claims. Would those in attendence share that view is a question that should be asked, because I believe they would,.he does.

SOLVING THE ‘LATINO” PROBLEM A MYTH HISPANIC IS NOT A RACE BUT A POLITICAL LINGUISTIC CONTRIVANCE ...don’t fall into the hyphenated Americans trap created by the hyphenated political party ...The DEMO-COMS

The Mexicans have been getting most favorable treatment above the rest of our neighbors both north and south. They’re permitted to cross our borders and enter illegally and are allowed access to rights of citizenship (with the exception of voting which if the democrat party regains control over the House will happen) other nationals entering this country don’t get.. Worse yet the Obama government has been working hand in glove with Mexican movements such as LaRaza supporting the Mexican claims which are also supporting “Amnesty”.

Also by allowing Mexicans to do this any quota ration for immigration from other south and central American countrys are taken up by Mexicans while that country is laying claim to a large chunk of our sovereign territory is a recipe for later serious problems which are happening now.

ARE MEXICAN ILLEGALS SQUATTERS PERPETUATING THE MEXICAN CLAIMS ?

We are already seeing the result of this in certain areas claimed by the Mexicans. Their national flag (standard) gets displayed over ours. Where there is a controlling number of Mexican nationals (illegals). It’s displayed over certain institutions particularly schools accompanied by riots and disturbances. Blacks are threatend by Mexicans in certain sections of citys in those areas. We’re courting trouble by not placing a value on our sovereignty and our citizenship.

MOST COINS OF THE REALM HAVE TWO FACES WHAT ABOUT HOW ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS LIVING IN MEXICO BEING TREATED ?

Worse yet if a US citizen goes into Mexico never mind illegaly but legally. They’ll get 2nd class treatment. Land ownership in title is prohibited period. And there are a slew of regulations they must comply with. Which doesn’t apply to a citizen of Mexico

THE SOLUTION ASSERT OUR SOVEREIGNTY AND TALK RECIPROCITY .

By not insisting on reciprocity particularly on those who have entered this country illegally we’re offering no incentive for assimilation and we’re not easing the burden for our fellow citizens who for what ever reason decided to live in Mexico.

ENOUGH OF THE ONE WORLD SOCIALISM ...BRING BACK SOVEREIGNTY AND SANITY TO OUR COUNTRY .....BRING BACK BELIEF IN GOD ...THIS GOVERNMENT OUT OUR FACE..... OUR RELIGIONS..... AND OUR BEDROOMS..


30 posted on 07/02/2013 2:37:06 PM PDT by mosesdapoet (Serious contribution pause.Please continue onto meaningless venting no one reads.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Mexico has been a failed state since its inception. Let’s throw some more money down that bottomless pit. /s


31 posted on 07/02/2013 2:40:51 PM PDT by TADSLOS (The Event Horizon has come and gone. Buckle up and hang on.)
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To: Doogle

This is so incredibly hilarious!

Say, el puto, we here in Texas been sayin this for decades!


32 posted on 07/02/2013 2:41:00 PM PDT by servantboy777
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

OMW! I had to double check to make sure this was not the Onion. The gall!


33 posted on 07/02/2013 2:48:42 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Restore us, O God of hosts; let your face shine, that we may be saved! -Ps80)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Ask me if I give a smelly Obama about Mexico’s problems.


34 posted on 07/02/2013 2:54:21 PM PDT by Da Coyote
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

How about Mexico sealing her own borders to keep other Central Americans, and Muzzies from passing through?? (They’re not ashamed of accepting “rich” norteamericanos as permanent residents.)


35 posted on 07/02/2013 2:56:53 PM PDT by imardmd1
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Mexican nationals are basically Mexico’s problem, not the American taxpayer’s problem


36 posted on 07/02/2013 3:11:40 PM PDT by upcountryhorseman (An old fashioned conservative)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Did he claim that low skilled illegal immigrants impose a burden on the host country?

BIGOT!
37 posted on 07/02/2013 3:12:52 PM PDT by Darteaus94025
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Slow path to progress for U.S. immigrants: 43% on welfare after 20 years

The study, which covers all immigrants, legal and illegal, and their U.S.-born children younger than 18, found that immigrants tend to make economic progress by most measures the longer they live in the U.S. but lag well behind native-born Americans on factors such as poverty, health insurance coverage and homeownership.

The study, based on 2010 and 2011 census data, found that 43 percent of immigrants who have been in the U.S. at least 20 years were using welfare benefits, a rate that is nearly twice as high as native-born Americans and nearly 50 percent higher than recent immigrants.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/8/slow-path-to-progress-for-us-immigrants/

thanks for confirming what we already know, Jorge.


38 posted on 07/02/2013 3:35:49 PM PDT by TurboZamboni (Marx smelled bad & lived with his parents most his life.)
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To: BitWielder1

It would be cheaper and more humane to build UN shelters for them in Mexico for that at 1% of the cost of having them live in America.


39 posted on 07/02/2013 4:36:48 PM PDT by ObamahatesPACoal
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; ...

Thanks 2ndDivisionVet.
...says the U.S. should accept more low-skill migrants from Central America, because otherwise the migrants would stay in Mexico.

40 posted on 07/02/2013 5:37:54 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (McCain or Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

Canada exports some of its trash to Michigan. If it didn’t the trash would become a burden to some Ontario cities.


41 posted on 07/02/2013 5:43:39 PM PDT by clearcarbon
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Mexico has a huge surplus population that its economy, social services, criminal justice system, and infrastructure can't sustain. Consequently, the Mexican government has for decades regarded the United States as a dumping ground for all of its surplus, so to speak. Mexico can't afford them, so we have to foot the bill. I remember Vincente Fox being especially blatant and forthright about this.

So we get their criminal gang members, their perpetually pregnant teenage mothers, and a whole lot of unskilled, uneducated people at a time when the highest unemployment rate is among unskilled American workers. Mexico wins by not having to deal with them, and gets its economy propped up further by remittances. We get ...???

42 posted on 07/03/2013 9:34:54 AM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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To: stephenjohnbanker; DoughtyOne; sickoflibs; BillyBoy; fieldmarshaldj; AuH2ORepublican; ...

Just wait till George P. and Jebby start running for office. They are bona fide “Latinos” and “good looking”. I’m sure we’ll be saddled with this RINO clan for another generation.

Was Prescott a RINO too?


43 posted on 07/03/2013 4:59:28 PM PDT by Impy (Bring back the spoils system.)
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To: Impy; DoughtyOne; sickoflibs; BillyBoy; fieldmarshaldj; AuH2ORepublican

” stephenjohnbanker; DoughtyOne; sickoflibs; BillyBoy; fieldmarshaldj; AuH2ORepublican;”

I am pretty sure GHWB became a globalist when he got entrenshed with the UN, and CIA. He never had a lick of common sense anyway. Then he poisoned the minds of his equally obtuse sons, W and Jeb.
They are collectively a destructive,deadly lot.


44 posted on 07/05/2013 9:15:52 AM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (The RINO/amnesty argument goes like this: 1) If we pander to Hispanics, we will save the GOP, at le)
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To: 2ndDivisionVet

When Central Americas bust across our border they get a court hearing and are paroled out into the American population with a promise to come back for another court appearance>>>>>> which of course they never show up for

Mexicans who are caught are simply bussed back to Mexico. It is not as easy to deport (get rid of) Central American illegals because they have to be deported by airplane. So they are pretty much home free once they get across our border. A stinking disgrace. Central American illegal aliens are more Indian and less European than Mexican illegal aliens.....

A town near my is heavily Guatemalan and the residents look straight out of an Indian village in Guatemala. The women even had colorful dresses on


45 posted on 07/05/2013 9:23:46 AM PDT by dennisw (The first principle is to find out who you are then you can achieve anything -- Buddhist monk)
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To: dennisw
Mexicans who are caught are simply bussed back to Mexico. It is not as easy to deport (get rid of) Central American illegals because they have to be deported by airplane. So they are pretty much home free once they get across our border. A stinking disgrace. Central American illegal aliens are more Indian and less European than Mexican illegal aliens.....

The economic relationship between Mexico and Guatemala is a lot like that of the relationship between the US and Mexico.

Isn't it ironic that the Mexican government screams bloody murder when America tries to keep Mexican illegals out (or deports them), all the while Mexico arrests and deports Guatemalan illegals on the spot, no questions asked.

As for their ethnicity, most of the "European" Latin Americans (Mexican and otherwise) are generally the wealthy elite of their countries. They aren't the ones moving across borders illegally. We get the Indios and mestizos from both Mexico and the rest of Central America.

46 posted on 07/08/2013 3:14:57 PM PDT by ek_hornbeck
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