Saakashvili's UN Speech

Civil Georgia ^ | 26 Sep.'13

[annalex]

Remember, your argument was that Russia will never side with China. You now understand that Russia, as indeed most countries will side with anyone if it sees a benefit in it?

Putin and his clique might be corrupt apparatchics but they are as commie as former Iranian president is a Jew

Yes, but you don't seem to have a realistic grasp of late-USSR communism. That is what they all were, corrupt apparatchiks. This is why there is a continuity from USSR to Putin. Same cards, different game.

I came across a lengthy article about Sino-Russian relations, by the way. Tell me what you think:

Is Russia Losing Control of Its Far East?

[cunning_fish]

Indeed, Russia’s control in Far East is challenged and it is effectively losing control in Central Asia to China with the US actively assisting the red dragon.
And I repeat that Russia will never side with China FOR REAL. There might be some decorative alliances and treaties but the reality is there are no common interests to pursue.

BTW, corrupt aparatchic isn’t = commie. If you want to look at aparatchics you only have to look at DC.

Communism = government owned businesses and one party rule supported by a massive class o freeloaders.

Russia is still moving away from it since late 1980s while US is moving in opposite direction.

There is practically no welfare and socialized healthcare in Russia, there are practically more freedom of speech considering lack of political correctness etc, and the majority of businesses are private owned.

The lack of welfare state and no commitment from the government to create such is the first sign that they are less commie than Washington DC.

People who has to earn for a living with hard work and initiative (and actually benefits from it!) won’t ever make a commie support base.

[annalex]

The USSR sided with Hitler long enough to get itself half Poland, Karelia, and Moldova, and I am probably forgetting something. Then the USSR sided with Roosevelt and Churchhill and got the rest of Central Europe. I think that was, in both instances, “for real” enough, and shows you how little ideological commitment was there even under Stalin.

Formally, of course Russia is not communist, but my point is, that was not the defining characteristic of the post-Stalin USSR either. In both regimes there are the people who are “in” and the rest of the country. The “in” crowd owes everything to Putin and his party, and behaves accordingly.

About Obama’s America — don’t get me started. I agree with you.

[cunning_fish]

>>>The USSR sided with Hitler long enough to get itself half Poland, Karelia, and Moldova, and I am probably forgetting something. Then the USSR sided with Roosevelt and Churchhill and got the rest of Central Europe. I think that was, in both instances, “for real” enough, and shows you how little ideological commitment was there even under Stalin.<<<

Appeasing Hitler and taking advantage of FDR politics is not exactly “siding”.
In case of China there are no touching points at all.
Russian-Chinese relations are nothing but a smoke screen to make the West jealous and scared. True Russian allies in Indochina and Far East are Vietnam and India - both enemies of China.

>>>Formally, of course Russia is not communist, but my point is, that was not the defining characteristic of the post-Stalin USSR either. In both regimes there are the people who are “in” and the rest of the country. The “in” crowd owes everything to Putin and his party, and behaves accordingly.<<<

Post-Stalininst Russia was communist enough to bear a commie status.
Khruschev may have closed Gulags, expelled liberal artists to the West instead of shooting them and allowed people to own automobiles and homes but the means of productions were all state-owned. It was a 100% welfare state with universal government dependency and 100% employment.
It hasn’t changed until 1987.

[mac_truck]

There is practically no welfare and socialized healthcare in Russia, there are practically more freedom of speech considering lack of political correctness etc, and the majority of businesses are private owned.

Not to mention their having successfully established a flat tax structure that rewards hard work, or the ambitious government approved plan to build 200 new churches in the city of Moscow. Not bad for a bunch of godless commie thugs.

[annalex]

You are repeating your previous statements that focus on the unimportant.

The touch points between Russia and China are
- Successful transformation from state-ownership to investment-driven growing manufacturing economy in China, while still under Communist Party command and control, — something Russia was unable to achieve and would like to imitate.
- Russian Far East with its natural resource is target of Chinese economic expansion (see article linked yesterday).
- Common interests in containing or squeezing Muslim Central Asia.
- Common interest in restoring military powers of global reach.

The private ownership in Russia is minor and illusory. The big industry — oil, gas, nuclear, military complex, was either brought to ruin or given to the same KGB strongmen that ruled prior to 1991, for safekeeping. These are today’s oligarch, except Putin replaced the early mafia with his own men. Private enterprise is small and beleaguered, cannot compete with even the near abroad and still requires gangster protection to keep the doors open. This is the same USSR lightly camouflaged.

[cunning_fish]

>>The touch points between Russia and China are - Successful transformation from state-ownership to investment-driven growing manufacturing economy in China, while still under Communist Party command and control, — something Russia was unable to achieve and would like to imitate. - Russian Far East with its natural resource is target of Chinese economic expansion (see article linked yesterday). - Common interests in containing or squeezing Muslim Central Asia. - Common interest in restoring military powers of global reach.<<

None of the above makes ground for cooperation at all with the exception of Muslim issue. But the problem is Muslim groups threatening Russia and China are respectively different, also both nations have both will and resources to deal with a problem on their own.

>>The private ownership in Russia is minor and illusory. The big industry — oil, gas, nuclear, military complex, was either brought to ruin or given to the same KGB strongmen that ruled prior to 1991, for safekeeping. These are today’s oligarch, except Putin replaced the early mafia with his own men. Private enterprise is small and beleaguered, cannot compete with even the near abroad and still requires gangster protection to keep the doors open. This is the same USSR lightly camouflaged.<<

Well, if you think so...

[annalex]

All Muslim easily funge one into the other, and Central Asia Muslim are right between the two countries, hence are common concern. Military and economic complementarity logically leads to alliances — how is that “not grounds for cooperation”?

[cunning_fish]

If so, muslim problem is a reason for US-Russian alliance but it works either way.

[annalex]

That is because the US policy is two-way, especially on Syria it is quite schizophrenic; yet cooperation with Russia over Afghanistan — including the NATO base in central Russia — is one of the ties that proved enduring.