Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Saakashvili's UN Speech
Civil Georgia ^ | 26 Sep.'13

Posted on 09/29/2013 2:42:38 PM PDT by annalex

President Saakashvili addresses UN General Assembly, September 25, 2013.

In his address to the UN General Assembly on September 25, Georgia’s outgoing President Mikheil Saakashvili lashed out at Russia for mounting “constant pressures and threats” on neighbors and said that “the last authoritarian empire in the world” will fail and its leader Vladimir Putin will vanish from the Russian politics in “few years from now.”

In his speech Saakashvili, whose second and final presidential term nears its end, also mentioned his tenure saying that “many good things” have been done under his leadership, but also added that “some of these things were done at a very high cost.”

“It makes me sick when KGB officer Vladimir Putin lectures the world about freedom, values and democracy,” Saakashvili said. “But this new project [the Eurasian Union] is much more dangerous than his lectures.” 

“The Eurasian Union has been shaped as an alternative to the European Union and unveiled by Vladimir Putin as the main project of his new presidency – the new Russian empire,” Saakashvili said in his 30-minute speech.

Russian representatives were listening to Saakashvili’s address for first twenty minutes and then walked out of the General Assembly hall.

Russia’s UN envoy, Vitaly Churkin, slammed Saakashvili’s speech as “Russophobic” and said, according to the Russian state-run English-language channel Russia Today: “Luckily for Georgian people, this man – whose mental state needs a professional expertise – is in the twilight of his political career.”

Russia was of the main topics in Saakashvili’s all of the previous nine UN speeches since becoming the Georgian President in 2004. But while in his first two addresses to the UN General Assembly in 2004 and 2005 he was speaking mainly on the need of cooperation, rhetoric was toning up in following years as relations between the two countries were getting worse.

“I was never a great fan of what the French call la langue de bois [wooden language], but as my second term nears its end, I feel more than before the urge to speak my mind,” he said in the address on September 25, which was his lengthiest one than any of his previous UN speeches.

When speaking about the Eurasian Union, he also made an apparent reference to recent remarks by PM Ivanishvili, who said that EU and NATO integration is “cornerstone” of Georgia’s foreign policy and also added that the government was watching and “studying” the Eurasian Union initiative. “If in perspective we see that it is interesting for the strategy of our country, then why not,” Ivanishvili said. 

Saakashvili said: Because European and Euro-Atlantic integration take a lot of time and… because there are moments when you might think you are pursuing a mirage… some people in our region might fall victim to fatigue and ask themselves: why not?”

He said that Kremlin’s “mouthpieces”, which he also described as “conscious or unconscious 5th column” identify the EU with “the destruction of family values, the erosion of national traditions and the promotion of gays and lesbians.”
 
“Strangely, in recent years and even more in recent months, we hear in Tbilisi, Kiev, or Chisinau the same ugly music that was first orchestrated in Moscow that our traditions are collapsing under the influence of the West, that Christian holidays will be replaced by gay pride events, and Churches by multicultural Disney Lands,” Saakashvili said.

Saakashvili also said that “the Russian project is doomed to fail.”

“Few years from now – you will recall my words – Vladimir Putin will have left the Kremlin and vanished from the Russian politics, even if he says that he will be there for another twenty years,” he said. “Russian citizens will remember him as a ghost from the old times – the times of corruption and oppression.”

Saakashvili said that the “hostility” of Putin towards his government “was not based on personal hatreds.”

“Do you think the Kremlin would agree to discuss the de-occupation of our regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, now that the government has changed in Tbilisi? Far from it,” he said. “Despite the friendly statements made by the new Georgian government in the recent weeks and months, the Russian military keep advancing positions, dividing communities with new barbwires.”

‘Cut Corners, Radical Methods and Mistakes’

In his speech, Saakashvili also spoke briefly about his presidential tenure and said that he takes pride in “many accomplishments” that Georgia achieved since 2004.

“We did many good things. When I became the President at that moment I was the youngest president in the world,” he said. “I realize that some of these things were done at a very high cost. In our rush to impose a new reality, against the background of internal and external threats, we have cut comers and certainly made mistakes.”
 
“We went sometimes too far and other times not far enough. I acknowledge fully my responsibility in all these shortcomings and I sincerely care for all those who have felt that they did not benefit enough from our work or even that they were victims of our radical methods.”

“I want to tell to all Georgian citizens – to those who supported our project, our policies and our party and to those who rejected them – I  want to tell them how proud I am of their maturity and their bravery, how humble I feel looking at the sacrifices and the efforts they have made,” he said.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Russia
KEYWORDS: eurasianunion; europeanunion; georgia; mikheilsaakashvili; nato; neoconpuppet; russia; saakashvili; unspeech; vladputin

1 posted on 09/29/2013 2:42:38 PM PDT by annalex
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: annalex

bump


2 posted on 09/29/2013 2:43:08 PM PDT by GeronL
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: A.A. Cunningham; andyk; BatGuano; bayliving; Belteshazzar; bert; Bibman; Bigg Red; bigheadfred; ...

If you want to be on this right wing, monarchy, paleolibertarianism and nationalism ping list, but are not, please let me know. If you are on it and want to be off, also let me know. This ping list is not used for Catholic-Protestant debates.


3 posted on 09/29/2013 2:43:11 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: annalex

How much is Soros paying him?


4 posted on 09/29/2013 2:44:02 PM PDT by dfwgator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dfwgator

I wonder how much Uncle Sam is paying him. Cui Bono?


5 posted on 09/29/2013 3:03:45 PM PDT by RC one
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: annalex

This would get more consideration from a leader who didn’t shell the sleeping citizens of South Ossetia in their apartments.

South Ossetia and Abkhazia don’t want to be part of Georgia, so he has had a great opportunity to show the kind of restraint and understanding he wants Putin to have.


6 posted on 09/29/2013 3:08:54 PM PDT by OldNewYork (Biden '13. Impeach now.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: OldNewYork

It takes a lot of nerve to say that when you consider the fact that it was Russia who was the aggressor, and continues to be the aggressor. Witness Russia’s continuing encroachment on Georgian land that is clearly outside of South Ossetia.

I would be interested in hearing your comments about this article:

http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cache=1&tx_ttnews[tt_news]=41396&tx_ttnews[backPid]=381&cHash=0d61639df0a351fddd1e8f96d3f73198#.UkivelNJXRg


7 posted on 09/29/2013 3:57:12 PM PDT by Parmenio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: OldNewYork

Kinda like sayin’ S. California wants to be a part of Mexico. Who are we to argue, right?


8 posted on 09/29/2013 4:31:16 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; cardinal4; ColdOne; ...

Thanks annalex.
Georgia's outgoing President Mikheil Saakashvili lashed out at Russia for mounting "constant pressures and threats" on neighbors and said that “the last authoritarian empire in the world" will fail and its leader Vladimir Putin will vanish from the Russian politics in "few years from now." In his speech Saakashvili, whose second and final presidential term nears its end, also mentioned his tenure saying that "many good things" have been done under his leadership, but also added that "some of these things were done at a very high cost... It makes me sick when KGB officer Vladimir Putin lectures the world about freedom, values and democracy," Saakashvili said. "But this new project [the Eurasian Union] is much more dangerous than his lectures. The Eurasian Union has been shaped as an alternative to the European Union and unveiled by Vladimir Putin as the main project of his new presidency -- the new Russian empire," Saakashvili said in his 30-minute speech. Russian representatives were listening to Saakashvili’s address for first twenty minutes and then walked out of the General Assembly hall.

9 posted on 09/29/2013 5:01:56 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (It's no coincidence that some "conservatives" echo the hard left.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: annalex

Please include me. Thanks


10 posted on 09/29/2013 5:03:53 PM PDT by BatGuano (You don't think I'd go into combat with loose change in my pocket, do ya?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: annalex
In his speech, Saakashvili also spoke briefly about his presidential tenure and said that he takes pride in “many accomplishments” that Georgia achieved since 2004.

This punk is yesterday's news.


11 posted on 09/29/2013 5:13:48 PM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: annalex

Saakashvili is a thug and a dictator falsely advertised as a freedom fighter.
Learn a little bit about Georgia apart from that is said in media.
It is practically a police state, those disagree with a president are routinely jailed and their assets confiscated.
Pro-Western choice is nice but it makes as much sense as a pro-Soviet choice in Cuba. As for 2008 about 20% of Georgian population were working in Russia illegally. And Georgian economy has little capability to generate revenues apart from trading with Russia. Until just recently it was replaced by direct US aid but this aid hasn’t improved a thing being exclusively used for military and to build luxury government offices, remodel central streets in a cities and other Potemkin village stuff.
Saakashvili is a lame duck and he knows it. He has taunted so-called pro-Western choice by himself.


12 posted on 09/29/2013 5:55:12 PM PDT by cunning_fish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Parmenio

“It takes a lot of nerve to say that when you consider the fact that it was Russia who was the aggressor”

Not really, because Russia wasn’t the aggressor.

Regarding the article you linked, Russia being on the right in defending South Ossetia from Georgian attack, doesn’t make Russia always on the right side, any more than Georgia losing in war gives it the modern benefits of eternal victim status. The article is written by someone who sounds like he has a Georgian name and loyalties, and just reading it without knowing his name it would be hard to conclude he doesn’t at least have the latter. It’s not an objective bit of news analysis. He doesn’t mention any official Russian position even to juxtapose it with the official Georgian position. Instead he spends a good deal of time dealing with ideologue Dugin, who has no place in Russian officialdom, as far as I can discover, no more than Rush Limbaugh has a place in American officialdom. This leads to mention of Adjara, which did try to break away a while back, but since then can’t really be put in the same category as South Ossetia or Abkhazia. It’s part fantasy, part reality, and it’s left to the reader to discern which predominates.


13 posted on 09/30/2013 2:35:01 AM PDT by OldNewYork (Biden '13. Impeach now.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: 1rudeboy

“Kinda like sayin’ S. California wants to be a part of Mexico.”

Not really. It would be more like the Falkland Islands wanting to remain British, if any comparison could be made.


14 posted on 09/30/2013 2:37:01 AM PDT by OldNewYork (Biden '13. Impeach now.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: annalex

I wonder why noone takes Ossetians into consideration. This isn’t a ‘Georgia vs Russia’ thing, there is the third party.


15 posted on 09/30/2013 4:11:33 AM PDT by Freelance Warrior (A Russian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: annalex

I believe we need to reserve our opinions about Georgia. The people are lovely and the landscape and history is heart-breakingly beautiful but there is a dark thread running through it. When I read ‘The red tsar’ and saw the number of Stalin’s inner circle who were Georgians it made me wonder...


16 posted on 09/30/2013 4:12:46 AM PDT by Cronos (Obama’s dislike of Assad is not based on Assad’s brutality but that he isn't a jihadi Moslem)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Comment #17 Removed by Moderator

To: dfwgator; OldNewYork; SunkenCiv; mac_truck; cunning_fish; Freelance Warrior; Cronos
“It makes me sick when KGB officer Vladimir Putin lectures the world about freedom, values and democracy,”

Golden words. The article is not about Georgia; I agree that there is a Neo-con project of dubious value going on there. The article is about the curious fact that Putin has somehow weaseled himself into a position of moral authority. The root of the problem is, I think, a certain Nobel Peace laureate, and his accomplices in the GOP who allowed this to happen.

While it is easy to detest the European Union, the USSR 2.0 that Putin is building -- in Asia -- is a sign of a strategic alliance between Russia and China, which is another colossal foreign policy mistake of the recent US administrations. It should not have been allowed to happen.

18 posted on 09/30/2013 5:37:46 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: annalex

>>>Golden words. The article is not about Georgia; I agree that there is a Neo-con project of dubious value going on there. The article is about the curious fact that Putin has somehow weaseled himself into a position of moral authority. The root of the problem is, I think, a certain Nobel Peace laureate, and his accomplices in the GOP who allowed this to happen.<<<

Maybe the problem is a certain Nobel Peace winner and McCain are more evil than a KGB agent? Is it Putin’s fault if he makes more sense on so many issues?

And as for a Russian-Chinese alliance I don’t think you are right. It won’t ever happen. They have divorced circa 1956 when Khruschev has called Stalin and Mao bloody killers and they won’t ever come really close ever since.

In fact right now US is the most important ally of Red China. The war in Afghanistan is particularly fought in a Chinese interest.


19 posted on 09/30/2013 6:36:49 AM PDT by cunning_fish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: cunning_fish
Is it Putin’s fault if he makes more sense

No, of course not. He is seeing a vacuum of moral authority and he is exploiting it.

How is war in Afghanistan in Chinese interest? Why what Kruschev said in 1956 still a factor, but our own views on China prior to 1972 not a factor?

20 posted on 09/30/2013 6:41:02 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: cunning_fish

I hate neo-Stalinists as much as I hate the real thing.


21 posted on 09/30/2013 6:54:21 AM PDT by Parmenio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: annalex
That is a anti-Russian Chinese poster from 1960s and it say it all. Russians are weak liberals and bourgeois revanchist by Chinese books, a faux commies. The problem is Khruschev's policy of "peaceful coexistance" with the West. Stalin believed in a theory of "global revolution". A central idea was about a direct and proxy military confrontation against a capitalist nations until their destruction to establish a global communist government. Internal enemies of revolution had to be destroyed as well. Mao was a huge Stalin's fan and a follower. Khruschev's idea was that the nature has created all people equal and it is not one's fault if he was born a capitalist. Another point was that he may have problems with Kennedy's administration but it doesn't mean that an American "worker class" has to suffer. A peaceful competition in terms of science and technology declared to teach capitalists a "progressive" ways and make them socialists by example. A policy of "global revolution" via destruction of the West was abandoned as savage, similar policies was adopted on domestic issues. Gulag system was dismantled and anti-socialist dissent was moved from a category of capital crimes to a category of medical conditions. Chinese went ape and told Khruschev he is betraying a revolution. Khruschev, infamous for his poor diplomatic skills, stressed that he is not about to listen lectures from an "old shoe" mass murderer and Stalin's butt-buddy Mao, he may go screw himself and so on. It was a huge insult Chinese remember up to this day and it still dominates relations between two nations. For Russians Chinese are brutal Stalinist barbarians, who are thankless for helping their sorry gook butts out of Japanese occupation, for Chinese Russians are back-stabbing CINOs(Commies in name only) Nothing has changed ever since.
22 posted on 09/30/2013 8:32:12 AM PDT by cunning_fish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: OldNewYork
It would be more like the Falkland Islands wanting to remain British, if any comparison could be made.

Only if you feel like claiming Britain forcibly occupied the sovereign nation of Falkland.

23 posted on 09/30/2013 9:54:33 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: 1rudeboy

It sounds to me like you would benefit from reviewing your history of Ossetia.


24 posted on 09/30/2013 12:55:56 PM PDT by OldNewYork (Biden '13. Impeach now.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: OldNewYork

Likewise, it looks to me that you would benefit from removing your nose from Vladi’s backside, and getting some fresh air.


25 posted on 09/30/2013 12:57:37 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: 1rudeboy

You’re funny.


26 posted on 09/30/2013 2:59:35 PM PDT by OldNewYork (Biden '13. Impeach now.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: OldNewYork

And you’re sad. Glad we cleared it up!


27 posted on 09/30/2013 3:59:06 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: cunning_fish

You ascribe to the Communists — and Putin’s Russia as well as China are still run by communists, albeit modified since mid-20th century, — a quality they don’t possess: consistency. Within the span of three years Stalin was a friend of Hitler and a mortal foe of Hitler; he was a foe of capitalist America and its best friend. When the cards fall right for them, the Russians and the Chinese will become best buddies again. Remember China and Russia very much complement each other in macroeconomic terms.


28 posted on 09/30/2013 5:38:36 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: annalex

You guys need to learn history. Read a ‘Diplomacy’ by Kissinger to start with. Stalin was never a friend of Hitler. He was actually the first to fight Axis as early as mid-1930 in Spain backing Republicans against a German-backed national socialist element. It was pretty much as Korea 20 years later with a Nazy Germany instead of US. He has sent hordes of ‘advisors’ and shipped thousands of advanced aircraft including SB medium bombers (faster than any opposing German fighter at the time), Rata fighters - a Mig-15 of the earlier 1930s (a revolutionary all-metal monoplane, retractable gear, 1000+hp etc).
By late 1930s Stalin was taking directly on the Japanese in Mongolia and Northern China.

In fact Stalin was desperately seeking an alliance against Axis by 1938 but both France and UK told him to go pound sand.

Molotov-Ribbentropp pact was nothing but a way to get some time to rearm before inevitable war against Hitler. Finland, Poland, East Romania and Baltic States were occupied by Stalin as a buffer zones for that same reason.

BTW, to think modern Russia is run by commies is to ignore reality. Communist Party of Russia is mostly a laughing stock there, in a class of Illinois Nazis or something.


29 posted on 09/30/2013 6:31:28 PM PDT by cunning_fish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: Parmenio

BTW, Saakashvili’s wife Sandra admitted in an interview that her husband is a fan of Stalin who were a “single greatest Georgian” following Saakashvili.


30 posted on 09/30/2013 8:22:52 PM PDT by cunning_fish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: cunning_fish

Nevertheless in 1939-41 the USSR took enormous advantage of Ribbentropp-Molotov pact and occupied swaths of Central and northern Europe. Would the USSR then turn on Germany itself is an open question, — possibly it would, but the history of the Second World War shows that USSR lacked any constancy in its foreign policy. There is no reason, given that history, to think that Putin or Chinese leadership today would not do what is in their mutual interest because of some disagreements over 60-year-old dogmas that both countries now discarded.

Modern Russia is run by the transformed communist ruling class. They are the same people who adapted their ideology to the fact that with the old ideology they lost the Cold War. They are transitional-era apparatchiks like Putin himself and their children, who are rebuilding and strengthening their rule. The nominal KPRF (Communist Party) is they only significant opposition in Duma as it is; but the true heir to the ruling class of the USSR is not them but Putin’s nashists: bureaucratic, chameleon-like, unprincipled and corrupt.


31 posted on 10/01/2013 5:27:23 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: annalex
Putin has somehow weaseled himself into a position of moral authority

Has he really done that? An article in the 'Opinion' section of The NYT doesn't make one a moral authority.

32 posted on 10/01/2013 5:46:10 AM PDT by Freelance Warrior (A Russian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Freelance Warrior

Given the dramatic moment when while Obama was trying to fix for himself a war in Syria, Putin took on a role of an elder statesman, I think the article had a historic impact far beyond most of the pulp that NYT prints.


33 posted on 10/01/2013 6:00:28 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: cunning_fish

I don’t believe it. Please supply a link where that statement appears. On the other hand, your man Putin is acting like a dictator and he completely corrupt to boot. He’s America’s enemy, so why are you on his side?


34 posted on 10/01/2013 6:09:33 AM PDT by Parmenio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: annalex
Putin took on a role of an elder statesman, I think the article had a historic impact far beyond most of the pulp that NYT prints.

This is not about Putin as a moral authority, rather about Obama as the opposite.

35 posted on 10/01/2013 6:09:54 AM PDT by Freelance Warrior (A Russian.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: Freelance Warrior

Ah, OK. I agree that Putin’s “moral authority” is a bit of a mystification.


36 posted on 10/01/2013 6:13:58 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: Parmenio

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/apr/01/georgia.oil
>>>This is not how the Georgians see things. In an interview with a Dutch magazine, Sandra Roelofs, the Dutch wife of the new Georgian president and hence the new first lady of Georgia, explained that her husband aspires to follow in the long tradition of strong Georgian leaders “like Stalin and Beria”. Saakashvili started his march on Tbilisi last November with a rally in front of the statue of Stalin in his birthplace, Gori. Unfazed, the western media continue to chatter about Saakashvili’s democratic credentials, even though his seizure of power was consolidated with more than 95% of the vote in a poll in January, and even though he said last week that he did not see the point of having any opposition deputies in the national parliament. In Sunday’s vote - for which final results are mysteriously still unavailable - the government appears to have won nearly every seat. Georgia is now effectively a one-party state, and Saakashvili has even adopted his party flag as the national flag. New world order enthusiasts have praised the nightly displays on Georgian television of people being arrested and bundled off to prison in handcuffs. The politics of envy and fear combine in an echo of 1930s Moscow, as Saakashvili’s anti-corruption campaign, egged on by the west, allows the biggest gangsters in this gangster state to eliminate their rivals.<<<

I’m not a Putin’s supporter but I think he has a legitimate interests as well. So does his nation.


37 posted on 10/01/2013 7:51:32 AM PDT by cunning_fish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: annalex

>>>Nevertheless in 1939-41 the USSR took enormous advantage of Ribbentropp-Molotov pact and occupied swaths of Central and northern Europe. Would the USSR then turn on Germany itself is an open question, — possibly it would, but the history of the Second World War shows that USSR lacked any constancy in its foreign policy. There is no reason, given that history, to think that Putin or Chinese leadership today would not do what is in their mutual interest because of some disagreements over 60-year-old dogmas that both countries now discarded.<<<

Their policies makes perfect sense all the time. Remember what Churchill said about forecasting Russian intentions and actions. It was true a century ago and still true today.

>>>Modern Russia is run by the transformed communist ruling class. They are the same people who adapted their ideology to the fact that with the old ideology they lost the Cold War. They are transitional-era apparatchiks like Putin himself and their children, who are rebuilding and strengthening their rule. The nominal KPRF (Communist Party) is they only significant opposition in Duma as it is; but the true heir to the ruling class of the USSR is not them but Putin’s nashists: bureaucratic, chameleon-like, unprincipled and corrupt.<<<

You sound a little bit Muslim. For Al-Qaeda terrorists both Iranian Ahmadinejad and Bashar al-Assad are Jews. Actually everyone they don’t like considered Jews for one reason or another. For you it seems like commies are that same bogey and you label every unpleasant person as such. Putin and his clique might be corrupt apparatchics but they are as commie as former Iranian president is a Jew:-)


38 posted on 10/01/2013 8:02:22 AM PDT by cunning_fish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: 1rudeboy

Troll away, guy.


39 posted on 10/01/2013 3:11:20 PM PDT by OldNewYork (Biden '13. Impeach now.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: OldNewYork

Trolling since Jan., 1999 . . . and poking Russians with a stick ever since.


40 posted on 10/01/2013 4:25:22 PM PDT by 1rudeboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: cunning_fish
Remember, your argument was that Russia will never side with China. You now understand that Russia, as indeed most countries will side with anyone if it sees a benefit in it?

Putin and his clique might be corrupt apparatchics but they are as commie as former Iranian president is a Jew

Yes, but you don't seem to have a realistic grasp of late-USSR communism. That is what they all were, corrupt apparatchiks. This is why there is a continuity from USSR to Putin. Same cards, different game.

I came across a lengthy article about Sino-Russian relations, by the way. Tell me what you think:

Is Russia Losing Control of Its Far East?

41 posted on 10/01/2013 5:31:43 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: annalex

Indeed, Russia’s control in Far East is challenged and it is effectively losing control in Central Asia to China with the US actively assisting the red dragon.
And I repeat that Russia will never side with China FOR REAL. There might be some decorative alliances and treaties but the reality is there are no common interests to pursue.

BTW, corrupt aparatchic isn’t = commie. If you want to look at aparatchics you only have to look at DC.

Communism = government owned businesses and one party rule supported by a massive class o freeloaders.

Russia is still moving away from it since late 1980s while US is moving in opposite direction.

There is practically no welfare and socialized healthcare in Russia, there are practically more freedom of speech considering lack of political correctness etc, and the majority of businesses are private owned.

The lack of welfare state and no commitment from the government to create such is the first sign that they are less commie than Washington DC.

People who has to earn for a living with hard work and initiative (and actually benefits from it!) won’t ever make a commie support base.


42 posted on 10/01/2013 6:10:47 PM PDT by cunning_fish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: cunning_fish

The USSR sided with Hitler long enough to get itself half Poland, Karelia, and Moldova, and I am probably forgetting something. Then the USSR sided with Roosevelt and Churchhill and got the rest of Central Europe. I think that was, in both instances, “for real” enough, and shows you how little ideological commitment was there even under Stalin.

Formally, of course Russia is not communist, but my point is, that was not the defining characteristic of the post-Stalin USSR either. In both regimes there are the people who are “in” and the rest of the country. The “in” crowd owes everything to Putin and his party, and behaves accordingly.

About Obama’s America — don’t get me started. I agree with you.


43 posted on 10/01/2013 6:24:08 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: annalex

>>>The USSR sided with Hitler long enough to get itself half Poland, Karelia, and Moldova, and I am probably forgetting something. Then the USSR sided with Roosevelt and Churchhill and got the rest of Central Europe. I think that was, in both instances, “for real” enough, and shows you how little ideological commitment was there even under Stalin.<<<

Appeasing Hitler and taking advantage of FDR politics is not exactly “siding”.
In case of China there are no touching points at all.
Russian-Chinese relations are nothing but a smoke screen to make the West jealous and scared. True Russian allies in Indochina and Far East are Vietnam and India - both enemies of China.

>>>Formally, of course Russia is not communist, but my point is, that was not the defining characteristic of the post-Stalin USSR either. In both regimes there are the people who are “in” and the rest of the country. The “in” crowd owes everything to Putin and his party, and behaves accordingly.<<<

Post-Stalininst Russia was communist enough to bear a commie status.
Khruschev may have closed Gulags, expelled liberal artists to the West instead of shooting them and allowed people to own automobiles and homes but the means of productions were all state-owned. It was a 100% welfare state with universal government dependency and 100% employment.
It hasn’t changed until 1987.


44 posted on 10/01/2013 10:07:19 PM PDT by cunning_fish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: cunning_fish
There is practically no welfare and socialized healthcare in Russia, there are practically more freedom of speech considering lack of political correctness etc, and the majority of businesses are private owned.

Not to mention their having successfully established a flat tax structure that rewards hard work, or the ambitious government approved plan to build 200 new churches in the city of Moscow. Not bad for a bunch of godless commie thugs.

45 posted on 10/02/2013 4:17:32 AM PDT by mac_truck ( Aide toi et dieu t aidera)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: cunning_fish

You are repeating your previous statements that focus on the unimportant.

The touch points between Russia and China are
- Successful transformation from state-ownership to investment-driven growing manufacturing economy in China, while still under Communist Party command and control, — something Russia was unable to achieve and would like to imitate.
- Russian Far East with its natural resource is target of Chinese economic expansion (see article linked yesterday).
- Common interests in containing or squeezing Muslim Central Asia.
- Common interest in restoring military powers of global reach.

The private ownership in Russia is minor and illusory. The big industry — oil, gas, nuclear, military complex, was either brought to ruin or given to the same KGB strongmen that ruled prior to 1991, for safekeeping. These are today’s oligarch, except Putin replaced the early mafia with his own men. Private enterprise is small and beleaguered, cannot compete with even the near abroad and still requires gangster protection to keep the doors open. This is the same USSR lightly camouflaged.


46 posted on 10/02/2013 5:31:58 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: annalex

>>The touch points between Russia and China are - Successful transformation from state-ownership to investment-driven growing manufacturing economy in China, while still under Communist Party command and control, — something Russia was unable to achieve and would like to imitate. - Russian Far East with its natural resource is target of Chinese economic expansion (see article linked yesterday). - Common interests in containing or squeezing Muslim Central Asia. - Common interest in restoring military powers of global reach.<<

None of the above makes ground for cooperation at all with the exception of Muslim issue. But the problem is Muslim groups threatening Russia and China are respectively different, also both nations have both will and resources to deal with a problem on their own.

>>The private ownership in Russia is minor and illusory. The big industry — oil, gas, nuclear, military complex, was either brought to ruin or given to the same KGB strongmen that ruled prior to 1991, for safekeeping. These are today’s oligarch, except Putin replaced the early mafia with his own men. Private enterprise is small and beleaguered, cannot compete with even the near abroad and still requires gangster protection to keep the doors open. This is the same USSR lightly camouflaged.<<

Well, if you think so...


47 posted on 10/03/2013 9:17:22 AM PDT by cunning_fish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: cunning_fish

All Muslim easily funge one into the other, and Central Asia Muslim are right between the two countries, hence are common concern. Military and economic complementarity logically leads to alliances — how is that “not grounds for cooperation”?


48 posted on 10/03/2013 6:43:15 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: annalex

If so, muslim problem is a reason for US-Russian alliance but it works either way.


49 posted on 10/03/2013 9:56:33 PM PDT by cunning_fish
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: cunning_fish

That is because the US policy is two-way, especially on Syria it is quite schizophrenic; yet cooperation with Russia over Afghanistan — including the NATO base in central Russia — is one of the ties that proved enduring.


50 posted on 10/04/2013 5:32:09 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 49 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson